How can they charge for water?

18-10-2013 11:54PM

No one pays for water, what they pay for is the treatment & transportation of that water to them, sometimes the shít that comes out of the taps shouldn't be charged for! :mad:

April O Neill · 18-10-2013 11:54PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Genuine question: what's wrong with our water supply?

I'm not critical of the water charge because it is necessary by now, but just wondering what is so bad about our water/supply.

Generally, I find the quality good, but that Cryptosporidium thing a few years ago was pretty ridiculous!

wexie · 18-10-2013 11:56PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Genuine question: what's wrong with our water supply?

I'm not critical of the water charge because it is necessary by now, but just wondering what is so bad about our water/supply.

It's not fit for human consumption in many places and lots of it leaking out of the system and therefore necessitating the use of tanks (which themselves can lead to many problems and health issues)

http://www.hpsc.ie/hpsc/A-Z/Gastroenteric/Cryptosporidiosis/Publications/EpidemiologyofCryptosporidiosisinIrelandAnnualReports/File,1457,en.pdf

http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=3187

Ace2007 · 18-10-2013 11:56PM

hfallada wrote: »

But I hope their is no BS allowances( paid for by other users) just because someone is an OAP, when most middle class families are struggling, but get no help from the government.

Just on this, I think you would want allowances of sort.
For example an OAP probably has shower/bath once a week while a family would could have 2/3. Therefore do you want them treated the same?

MadsL · 18-10-2013 11:57PM

There is apparently a market for sand in Saudi Arabia.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2007/06/12/australian-companies-selling-sand-to-saudi-arabia/

As yet reports of coals to Newcastle are vague...

Owen_S · 18-10-2013 11:59PM

The great side effect of these charges is that more people will began harvesting rainwater.

wexie · 19-10-2013 12:01AM

MadsL wrote: »

There is apparently a market for sand in Saudi Arabia.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/2007/06/12/australian-companies-selling-sand-to-saudi-arabia/

As yet reports of coals to Newcastle are vague...

One of my friends got a serious slagging from a border guard crossing the border from panama to columbia when she was caught with a small baggy of weed. The guard wanted to know if she was worried about being able to obtain drugs

dxhound2005 · 19-10-2013 12:06AM

Its All Wright wrote: »

I laughed when bottled water first hit the shelves..but now it is all i drink

I welcome the water tax if it ends up improving our dreadful water supply

Fill a bottle from the tap and leave it in the fridge overnight. Water from the fridge tastes better to me than straight out of the tap. Your bottled water from the shop will not taste as nice either at room temperature.

19-10-2013 12:09AM

wexie wrote: »

It's a big if, but the water infrastructure is dreadful indeed. I grew up in Holland and when I first moved to Dublin many many moons ago I couldn't understand why there could possibly be a need for tanks in the attic. I don't believe they're being used in many other countries in europe either. (anybody know?).

Ireland and the UK use low pressure systems, Europe uses high pressure systems. There's no "need" for either, low pressure systems can simplify maintenance/repairs and are simpler in general, and can smooth demand.

Not being able to drink the tapwater for months on end? In an affluent western european country? Simply laughable.

For being such an abundant resource it's clearly been horrendously mismanaged in Ireland for many years.

While I won't disagree about it being mismanaged there are issues with water in different places for all kinds of reasons. Also the "abundance" is pretty much irrelevant in many ways, plants can only process so much water, heavy rain can cause problems, water has to be put into the pipes once treated etc.

Dempsey · 19-10-2013 12:09AM

Hitchens wrote: »

...in the wettest country on earth? I'm after driving through rivers of water today, the whole shaggin' place is soaking wet.

Not the slightest danger of running out of water.

People buying water in shops, can never figure that out either. :mad:

How do you think it gets to your tap and how do you think its made safe for drinking?

Why dont you harvest your own water & purify it. Problem Solved!

wexie · 19-10-2013 12:19AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Ireland and the UK use low pressure systems, Europe uses high pressure systems. There's no "need" for either, low pressure systems can simplify maintenance/repairs and are simpler in general, and can smooth demand.

Hmmm....that's sounds plausible, however it would lead me to ask how come nobody else seems to be using a low pressure system? Also it would seem to be that any high pressure system is a lot more capable of and suitable to keep outside contaminents out.

Deleted User wrote: »

While I won't disagree about it being mismanaged there are issues with water in different places for all kinds of reasons. Also the "abundance" is pretty much irrelevant in many ways, plants can only process so much water, heavy rain can cause problems, water has to be put into the pipes once treated etc.

Oh no argument there, I'm broadly aware of what goes into water treatment etc. However the infrastructure in Ireland is horribly outdated from what little I know. I can't for the life of me imagine any valid reasons why water supply would have to be an issue in Ireland (in the cities) with the size of the population. Provided there hadn't been serious mismanagement of (or lack of investment in) the system over a long period of time.

Ush1 · 19-10-2013 12:21AM

Doesn't the UK have much better pressure than here hence how common combi boilers are over there.

The_Gatsby · 19-10-2013 12:23AM

Ireland's water supply/infrastructure is in a terrible state. Some of the pipes used to transport water around the infrastructure are 80+ years old. Major upgrades are needed as there are serious risks that those pipes may collapse. Not to mention the extraordinary rate at which they leak water.

The water treatment plant in Leixlip runs extremely close to capacity on a good day. If there is ever a rise in demand or even if one of those 80 year old pipes fails on us then we're fúcked basically, Dublin wouldn't have any water. Add to this the fact that most of the plants in rural areas of the country are old and not sufficiently equipped to treat water and you really get an idea how badly we need upgrades.

Water charges will pay for the upgrades and it's one thing I think the government has got right. People from other countries are astounded when they find out we don't have to pay for water.

OP, your statements are child like and make you look stupid, which I'm sure you're not.

hansfrei · 19-10-2013 12:30AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Metering will reduce usage massively and make those costly repair leaks cheaper. Britain has been spending like crazy to reduce leakages but I think that once they get to under 30% that's as good as it's going to get, metering would instantly reduce demand at least as much as fixing leaks could increase supply.

Unfortunately the general opposition seems to be against charges in general while the parts of the plans that should be protested aren't targeted properly and it will only be at the last minute those issues are properly raised and then it'll be too late.

Using absolutes and certainties. It's absolutely not certain that we'll save f all. If anything it'll just add another cost to society, drive up inflation and make us even more uncompetitive.

If people are trying to tell me that magic will happen. Cheap clean water will appear at our taps they're either lying or delusional. This is Ireland, not the UK.

Dempsey · 19-10-2013 12:32AM

hansfrei wrote: »

Using absolutes and certainties. It's absolutely not certain that we'll save f all. If anything it'll just add another cost to society, drive up inflation and make us even more uncompetitive.

If people are trying to tell me that magic will happen. Cheap clean water will appear at our taps they're either lying or delusional. This is Ireland, not the UK.

How do you expect the infrastructure to be maintained if not taxation?

wexie · 19-10-2013 12:35AM

Dempsey wrote: »

How do you expect the infrastructure to be maintained if not taxation?

As long as the taxation is actually used for the infrastructure that'd be fine.

Lots of money in this country simply disappears into nothingness apparently.

Ush1 · 19-10-2013 12:35AM

Doesn't the UK have much better pressure than here hence how common combi boilers are over there.

19-10-2013 12:35AM

wexie wrote: »

Hmmm....that's sounds plausible, however it would lead me to ask how come nobody else seems to be using a low pressure system? Also it would seem to be that any high pressure system is a lot more capable of and suitable to keep outside contaminents out.

Why do we use different plugs to Europeans and different voltage to America?

There is still a mains connections straight to the cold tap in the kitchen so there's no chance of contamination of drinking water.

Oh no argument there, I'm broadly aware of what goes into water treatment etc. However the infrastructure in Ireland is horribly outdated from what little I know. I can't for the life of me imagine any valid reasons why water supply would have to be an issue in Ireland (in the cities) with the size of the population. Provided there hadn't been serious mismanagement of (or lack of investment in) the system over a long period of time.

While Ireland has underspent a lot there's an issue of philosophy as well. Much of the world just went ahead for the last few decades expanding supply and it's just taken up. We could go ahead and expand supply with massive infrastructural works or we can just put on meters and save a lot of money (believe it or not!), save ecological impacts and environmental impacts. It also doesn't rain quite as much in Ireland as people think :pac:
Some modernisation is needed and I hope (probably in vain) that funds will go where they should. The fact the new company will be independent and likely privatised soon will hopefully mean most of the funds go to the right place.

Jesus Wept · 19-10-2013 12:37AM

hfallada wrote: »

It has to be processed, which is extremely expensive to do. There is like 7 steps eg. flirtation, chlorination etc. Then it has to be piped and monitored constantly to check its quality. It costs the tax payer nearly €1 billion a year to do. I think the water charges will make people think twice about watering the grass during the summer( we dont live in Phoenix, Arizona, it will rain eventually) or washing their cars every week.

But I hope their is no BS allowances( paid for by other users) just because someone is an OAP, when most middle class families are struggling, but get no help from the government.

I have never seen anyone watering grass in this country.

Sh1tbag OToole · 19-10-2013 12:39AM

The fcukers can charge us for our own houses that we built ourselves on our own land, think what they can do if they actually provide us with a service

hansfrei · 19-10-2013 12:39AM

Dempsey wrote: »

How do you expect the infrastructure to be maintained if not taxation?

Its not taxation. Its a charge. Answer me this. Who can afford a dramtic change while we're in a recession? What will be the cost involved? What are people willing to pay? Why fix the market from the outset if the game is lowering costs and improving quality?

Going about the job arjseways won't solve anything. It'll just make things worse.

dxhound2005 · 19-10-2013 12:39AM

wexie wrote: »

As long as the taxation is actually used for the infrastructure that'd be fine.

Lots of money in this country simply disappears into nothingness apparently.

It may be apparent to you but I have no idea what you mean.

19-10-2013 12:40AM

Andy Carroll wrote: »

I have never seen anyone watering grass in this country.

I have. I think it was 4 days into a warm spell over the summer and the sprinkler was on for at least 3 hours for a space around 40 square metres.

wexie · 19-10-2013 12:40AM

Deleted User wrote: »

There is still a mains connections straight to the cold tap in the kitchen so there's no chance of contamination of drinking water.

hmmm.... so you can't drink the water in the rest of the house.
I don't know, it may well be me having grown up elsewhere but it seems like a horribly outdated system not fit for purpose.

Agree on the minimising the usage though, that's alway good but there's nothing to say that modernising the infrastructure can't go hand in hand with taming demand?

The_Gatsby · 19-10-2013 12:41AM

wexie wrote: »

As long as the taxation is actually used for the infrastructure that'd be fine.

Well if it's not we'll all notice in 10 years when there's no water coming out of the taps!

Dempsey · 19-10-2013 12:41AM

wexie wrote: »

As long as the taxation is actually used for the infrastructure that'd be fine.

Lots of money in this country simply disappears into nothingness apparently.

Well lets stick to the principles for the minute, if we dont tax water, the infrastructure either goes to complete crap or the budget for the required upgrades comes out of another budget/tax and another service(s) gets hit.

I dont disagree with the sentiment that money is not well spent by the government but things like not taxing water and it having huge infrastructure costs taken from other budgets surely feeds into the problem?

wexie · 19-10-2013 12:42AM

dxhound2005 wrote: »

It may be apparent to you but I have no idea what you mean.

That I would fear that the revenue from the water charges will not be used on improving the water infrastructure and service delivered.

So people will end up paying for a service that's still as poor as it is now.

hansfrei · 19-10-2013 12:45AM

Dempsey wrote: »

Well lets stick to the principles for the minute, if we dont tax water, the infrastructure either goes to complete crap or the budget for the required upgrades comes out of another budget/tax and another service(s) gets hit.

I dont disagree with the sentiment that money is not well spent by the government but things like not taxing water and it having huge infrastructure costs taken from other budgets surely feeds into the problem?

Not necessarily. Driving up costs and inflation will benefit no-one. Theres no guarantee this will be any more successful than Mary Harneys pipe dream about the health boards.

19-10-2013 12:45AM

wexie wrote: »

hmmm.... so you can't drink the water in the rest of the house.
I don't know, it may well be me having grown up elsewhere but it seems like a horribly outdated system not fit for purpose.

Yeah probably is, it's like going to America and considering their system not fit for purpose because hairdryers won't work properly.

Agree on the minimising the usage though, that's alway good but there's nothing to say that modernising the infrastructure can't go hand in hand with taming demand?

Both need to be done and are planned to be done.

wexie · 19-10-2013 12:46AM

Dempsey wrote: »

I dont disagree with the sentiment that money is not well spent by the government but things like not taxing water and it having huge infrastructure costs taken from other budgets surely feeds into the problem?

Probably....Maybe I haven't been clear enough : in principle I don't disagree with a water charge, it's a valuable resource and managing it and the delivery infrastructure clearly isn't free. However, like already stated, I just dont trust our current government (or any other foreseeable one) to do this in a cost efficient and effective manner.

Like any other service, I have issues with paying for a service that's not delivering what I'm paying for. Unfortunately it's not quite so easy to change government suppliers

How can they charge for water?

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