Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

Winters · 17-10-2013 06:25PM

Isn't that what the unions are for.. to represent the clubs?

Winters · 17-10-2013 06:28PM

wprathead wrote: »

Toulon say they will back HEC

Just when you thought it couldn't become more of a pantomine

But he's staying in the Top 14..?

You can't spell Mourad without M A D.

bilston · 17-10-2013 06:39PM

Winters wrote: »

But he's staying in the Top 14..?

You can't spell Mourad without M A D.

I know we should invite Toulon into the Pro 12!

thomond2006 · 17-10-2013 09:59PM

bilston wrote: »

I know we should invite Toulon into the Pro 12!

Jesus I wouldn't want Munster's seconds going there on an international weekend! :eek:

errlloyd · 17-10-2013 11:31PM

Its not just a **** you. Its a very clear statement that he believes the ERC is more capable of running a competition than French clubs. I'm actually delighted, like thrilled. The timing is class. Toulon are an unlikely candidate for my favourite French team, but they're getting there.

keps · 17-10-2013 11:50PM

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/news/10387391/Heineken-Cup-holders-Toulon-threaten-to-boycott-breakaway-Rugby-Champions-Cup.html

just to give the PLR paper's view on it

Grandpa Hassan · 18-10-2013 08:46AM

errlloyd wrote: »

Its not just a **** you. Its a very clear statement that he believes the ERC is more capable of running a competition than French clubs. I'm actually delighted, like thrilled. The timing is class. Toulon are an unlikely candidate for my favourite French team, but they're getting there.

I think that is a bit of a reach. He clearly has an axe to grind with the LNR....just look at what he said about them

irishbucsfan · 18-10-2013 08:54AM

errlloyd wrote: »

Its not just a **** you. Its a very clear statement that he believes the ERC is more capable of running a competition than French clubs. I'm actually delighted, like thrilled. The timing is class. Toulon are an unlikely candidate for my favourite French team, but they're getting there.

Have you read his opinion on the ERC?

It's just him trying to get his way on JIFF rules in typical Boudjellal fashion.

irishbucsfan · 18-10-2013 08:55AM

rrpc wrote: »

The real problem with this behaviour is that whatever about twelve representatives of six unions (and or leagues etc.)... let's just say nations... not being able to agree on a new accord, what are the chances that 20+ (and that plus could be another 20) representatives could agree on anything?

20+ don't need to agree on anything

irishbucsfan · 18-10-2013 09:08AM

rrpc wrote: »

Of course they can't. IBF obviously didn't read the salient line. PRL do not (and can't) have any jurisdiction over any connected or unconnected individual's accounts or other personal information. I doubt they can even access a player's data. It would breach so many laws as to be almost criminal.

But we know it's going on. Earlier, clumsier attempts at paying player's wives etc. were tried and closed down, but there's no doubting the will to circumvent the rules and therefore it's inevitable that it's still happening, just more clandestinely.

Ah, I've just seen this. I don't think you've actually read the regulations at all to be honest.

former legend · 18-10-2013 09:43AM

http://www.lequipe.fr/Medias/Actualites/-un-risque-d-appauvrissement-du-rugby/409418

Another perspective on things here, interview with one of the commentators on France 2, a free-to-air station that shares the HC rights with Canal+. If I have time later, I'll translate the whole thing, but he's basically arguing against the new tournament on the grounds that it will make the rich richer and the Celtic nations poorer.

Interviewer: "But your fears are only for your TV rights?"
Matthieu Lartot: "It's not limited to my own situation. My worries go further. In excluding Wales, Ireland, Scotland, we're impoverishing these regions and the consequence will be their weakness or marginalisation which will filter up to the level of their national teams. Therefore, this impacts the 6 Nations, then further on, the World Cup. We can't stop the globalisation of the game which is underway, quite the opposite, but the oval ball can't be limited to a closed circle."

Interviewer: "In the current climate of profesional sport, does rugby have a place on public-service aerials?"
Matthieu Lartot: "More than ever; ask Clermont if they weren't delighted to have had more than 2 million viewers last weekend. Without wanting to play the audience game, it's almost impossible to see a similar number watching on subscription channels. That's just as important for exposure of sponsors. Rugby still needs free-to-air media exposure, I'm sure of that."

rrpc · 18-10-2013 10:03AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ah, I've just seen this. I don't think you've actually read the regulations at all to be honest.

I haven't read the full regulations, just the precis published on the PRL website.

There is lots of talk about 'webs of connections', but when you get down to the audit level (the bit that matters), it's solely directed towards the clubs accounts and then seems to depend very heavily on player interviews, whistleblowers etc. for the rest.

The capability to audit anything other than club accounts would be highly unlikely to impossible. I would suspect that this level of inquiry would be restricted to what's available in the public domain, such as accounts filed with companies' offices around the world and other such data as well as whatever voluntary disclosures are made.

For example, I'm Schalk Britts' brother. What do you think I'd say if PRL came looking for my personal financial information?

OldRio · 18-10-2013 10:12AM

rrpc wrote: »

I haven't read the full regulations, just the precis published on the PRL website.

There is lots of talk about 'webs of connections', but when you get down to the audit level (the bit that matters), it's solely directed towards the clubs accounts and then seems to depend very heavily on player interviews, whistleblowers etc. for the rest.

The capability to audit anything other than club accounts would be highly unlikely to impossible. I would suspect that this level of inquiry would be restricted to what's available in the public domain, such as accounts filed with companies' offices around the world and other such data as well as whatever voluntary disclosures are made.

For example, I'm Schalk Britts' brother. What do you think I'd say if PRL came looking for my personal financial information?

Much easier in my time. You would find a £5 note stuck in your shoes at full time. Money faeries, bless em.
To be honest some players found that amount,
I normally got a couple of sixpences and a one way bus ticket. Can't think why?

irishbucsfan · 18-10-2013 10:33AM

rrpc wrote: »

I haven't read the full regulations, just the precis published on the PRL website.

There is lots of talk about 'webtions', but when you get down to the audit level (the bit that matters), it's solely directed towards the clubs accounts and then seems to depend very heavily on player interviews, whistleblowers etc. for the rest.

The capability to audit anything other than club accounts would be highly unlikely to impossible. I would suspect that this level of inquiry would be restricted to what's available in the public domain, such as accounts filed with companies' offices around the world and other such data as well as whatever voluntary disclosures are made.

For example, I'm Schalk Britts' brother. What do you think I'd say if PRL came looking for my personal financial information?

Except the burden of proof is on the club to disprove concernse raised in November. PRL and the independents act on the balance of probability and thr clubs sign up to that.

I'm sure there are breaches that go uncaught. Like in everything. But it is absolutely not unenforceable and is widely adhered to and is achieving exactly what it set out to achieve. The next step is increasing the EQ based awards and increasing scope to allow clubs to retain their own players.

rrpc · 18-10-2013 11:28AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Except the burden of proof is on the club to disprove concernse raised in November. PRL and the independents act on the balance of probability and thr clubs sign up to that.

I'm sure there are breaches that go uncaught. Like in everything. But it is absolutely not unenforceable and is widely adhered to and is achieving exactly what it set out to achieve. The next step is increasing the EQ based awards and increasing scope to allow clubs to retain their own players.

I seriously doubt that it's 'widely adhered to' There are some huge variances in squad sizes in the Premiership with some teams having almost 50% more players than others.

If it's capable of being circumvented then by definition it's not enforceable. That's like saying that speed limits are enforceable, but if you have no speed traps, then they clearly aren't.

who_me · 18-10-2013 11:56AM

By the way, did everyone else see the top 3 Pro12 sides lose in the HEC at the weekend, one at home and another to a bottom-of-the-table team? Disgraceful to see them focusing on the Pro12 at the expense of the HEC </stirring... stirring..>

irishbucsfan · 18-10-2013 12:02PM

rrpc wrote: »

I seriously doubt that it's 'widely adhered to' There are some huge variances in squad sizes in the Premiership with some teams having almost 50% more players than others.

If it's capable of being circumvented then by definition it's not enforceable. That's like saying that speed limits are enforceable, but if you have no speed traps, then they clearly aren't.

It is widely adhered to. Have you considered that not everyone has to use the entirety of the salary cap?

rrpc · 18-10-2013 12:03PM

who_me wrote: »

By the way, did everyone else see the top 3 Pro12 sides lose in the HEC at the weekend, one at home and another to a bottom-of-the-table team? Disgraceful to see them focusing on the Pro12 at the expense of the HEC </stirring... stirring..>

Yep, Munster especially concentrating on a league match the week before and sending a weakened team to Edinburgh.

And then we have to put up with Rob Penney's faux outrage

rrpc · 18-10-2013 12:04PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It is widely adhered to. Have you considered that not everyone has to use the entirety of the salary cap?

No, that never occurred to me. :rolleyes:

irishbucsfan · 18-10-2013 12:06PM

rrpc wrote: »

No, that never occurred to me. :rolleyes:

Which clubs squad is 50% larger than anyone else's?

rockbeast · 18-10-2013 12:36PM

The cheek of the AP asking for an elite competition when Gloucester send that team over...

rrpc · 18-10-2013 12:36PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Which clubs squad is 50% larger than anyone else's?

Exeter have 49, Quins have 34. That's a 44% differential.

irishbucsfan · 18-10-2013 12:37PM

rrpc wrote: »

Exeter have 49, Quins have 34. That's a 44% differential.

Where are you getting these numbers?

rrpc · 18-10-2013 12:53PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Where are you getting these numbers?

From their respective websites.

irishbucsfan · 18-10-2013 12:59PM

rrpc wrote: »

From their respective websites.

From counting the first team profiles on the websites?

Edit: Just had a look at the Quins profiles there... So where is Kyle Sinckler, or Sam Twomey? Are you serious here?

keps · 18-10-2013 02:14PM

Northampton Saints chairman Leon Barwell:

"Our squad size is 35 and we don't overpay as a club our players. We are very careful in terms of how we spend the money. There are two clubs in the Premiership, one with a squad size of 51 and one with a squad size of 54. Now I don't believe they are at those clubs simply because something 'special' is happening, they are getting paid pretty well."

One squad 35 and another 54

A difference of 19 on 35 = 54%

.ak · 18-10-2013 02:32PM

keps wrote: »

Northampton Saints chairman Leon Barwell:

"Our squad size is 35 and we don't overpay as a club our players. We are very careful in terms of how we spend the money. There are two clubs in the Premiership, one with a squad size of 51 and one with a squad size of 54. Now I don't believe they are at those clubs simply because something 'special' is happening, they are getting paid pretty well."

One squad 35 and another 54

A difference of 19 on 35 = 54%

What club has 54 out of interest?

irishbucsfan · 18-10-2013 02:33PM

keps wrote: »

Northampton Saints chairman Leon Barwell:

"Our squad size is 35 and we don't overpay as a club our players. We are very careful in terms of how we spend the money. There are two clubs in the Premiership, one with a squad size of 51 and one with a squad size of 54. Now I don't believe they are at those clubs simply because something 'special' is happening, they are getting paid pretty well."

One squad 35 and another 54

A difference of 19 on 35 = 54%

Except they're not the true figures. For example Harlequins have 45+ players in their full squad, despite rrpc's valuable contribution of counting up pictures on a website. Different clubs have different definitions of what constitutes their squad, but the salary cap includes them all. And the Saints are paying a lot more than 35 players.

keps · 18-10-2013 02:37PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

And the Saints are paying a lot more than 35 players.

How do you know?

irishbucsfan · 18-10-2013 02:38PM

.ak wrote: »

What club has 54 out of interest?

I think the Tigers have about 54 or 55 most seasons. I'd guess it's them given the size of their academy.

Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

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