Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

rrpc · 17-10-2013 11:17AM

thomond2006 wrote: »

There is a salary cap but with many loopholes that clubs exploit.

Salary caps are virtually unenforceable. So many ways of paying players off the books and outside the country where no auditor can find them.

irishbucsfan · 17-10-2013 11:31AM

rrpc wrote: »

Salary caps are virtually unenforceable. So many ways of paying players off the books and outside the country where no auditor can find them.

Nope, they are not unenforceable.

rrpc · 17-10-2013 12:01PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Nope, they are not unenforceable.

I could give you five possible workarounds without breaking a sweat.

Pay a certain amount "on the books" and the rest through in-kind payments, provision of services, loan write-offs, rent re-distributions, or end of contract payments.

Trust funds, corporate buy-outs, property transactions etc. Paid by the owner, or by the owner through a third party.

Or just plain cash.

So many ways.

LeinsterDub · 17-10-2013 12:27PM

rrpc wrote: »

I could give you five possible workarounds without breaking a sweat.

Pay a certain amount "on the books" and the rest through in-kind payments, provision of services, loan write-offs, rent re-distributions, or end of contract payments.

Trust funds, corporate buy-outs, property transactions etc. Paid by the owner, or by the owner through a third party.

Or just plain cash.

So many ways.

These ways are all illegal if you won't declare tax on them. I'm not sure i'd risk it

Macy0161 · 17-10-2013 12:29PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

These ways are all illegal if you won't declare tax on them. I'm not sure i'd risk it

Cash payments might be, but a work around a salary cap doesn't automatically mean a problem for tax compliance.

LeinsterDub · 17-10-2013 12:30PM

Macy0161 wrote: »

Cash payments might be, but a work around a salary cap doesn't automatically mean a problem for tax compliance.

Benefit in kind is taxable , at least here .

Macy0161 · 17-10-2013 12:37PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Benefit in kind is taxable , at least here .

Clubs wouldn't/ don't have to hide it in the books from revenue, only from whoever is assessing their compliance with the salary cap.

LeinsterDub · 17-10-2013 12:39PM

Macy0161 wrote: »

Clubs wouldn't/ don't have to hide it in the books from revenue, only from whoever is assessing their compliance with the salary cap.

So club would have 2 sets of books. Thats also illegal . Also those doing the compliance assessing are an independent 3rd party who are meant to have full access to the actual books .

DeDoc · 17-10-2013 12:45PM

Or you could just pay the players wife/gf an outstanding salary to turn up at the odd game or two, or to feed the ducks in the local park. Or you could pay the player (or have a sponsor pay them) some money for some off-field activity. None of these are illegal and they're all very easy to keep hidden from whoever inspects for the the salary cap.

rrpc · 17-10-2013 12:49PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

These ways are all illegal if you won't declare tax on them. I'm not sure i'd risk it

The only purpose of these putative schemes is to disguise the originator of the payment. Tax is payable, but not necessarily in (say) the UK or France.

Cash would be an issue, but again dependent on where it was paid.

Take for example a rent re-distribution.

Player rents house in England. He pays rent to a company based in SA. The SA company then pays him rent in SA for his own house in SA. They pay UK tax on the rental income and the player pays SA tax on his rental income there. No tax evasion.

rrpc · 17-10-2013 12:53PM

DeDoc wrote: »

Or you could just pay the players wife/gf an outstanding salary to turn up at the odd game or two, or to feed the ducks in the local park. Or you could pay the player (or have a sponsor pay them) some money for some off-field activity. None of these are illegal and they're all very easy to keep hidden from whoever inspects for the the salary cap.

These types of payments were done to death some time ago and are easily spotted and are actively looked for.

What I'm talking about is payment from the club's owner or other interested person who's accounts are separate from the club's.

It's of no consequence to the owner/sugar daddy whether he gives money to the club or subsidises their costs directly.

Winters · 17-10-2013 12:56PM

rrpc wrote: »

I could give you five possible workarounds without breaking a sweat.

Pay a certain amount "on the books" and the rest through in-kind payments, provision of services, loan write-offs, rent re-distributions, or end of contract payments.

Trust funds, corporate buy-outs, property transactions etc. Paid by the owner, or by the owner through a third party.

Or just plain cash.

So many ways.

If a salary cap is not the answer, what is?

rrpc · 17-10-2013 12:58PM

Winters wrote: »

If a salary cap is not the answer, what is?

One option is to put an upper limit on squad size. You can't hide players

irishbucsfan · 17-10-2013 01:09PM

rrpc wrote: »

I could give you five possible workarounds without breaking a sweat.

Pay a certain amount "on the books" and the rest through in-kind payments, provision of services, loan write-offs, rent re-distributions, or end of contract payments.

Trust funds, corporate buy-outs, property transactions etc. Paid by the owner, or by the owner through a third party.

Or just plain cash.

So many ways.

Every single one of those is inlcluded in the PRL salary anyways and the clubs are fully audited. So nope, they are not workarounds. Have you read the thing at all?

Grandpa Hassan · 17-10-2013 01:24PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Every single one of those is inlcluded in the PRL salary anyways and the clubs are fully audited. So nope, they are not workarounds. Have you read the thing at all?

I don't believe that payments from the owner, completely bypassing the club infrastructure, could possibly all be captured

rrpc · 17-10-2013 02:03PM

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

I don't believe that payments from the owner, completely bypassing the club infrastructure, could possibly all be captured

Of course they can't. IBF obviously didn't read the salient line. PRL do not (and can't) have any jurisdiction over any connected or unconnected individual's accounts or other personal information. I doubt they can even access a player's data. It would breach so many laws as to be almost criminal.

But we know it's going on. Earlier, clumsier attempts at paying player's wives etc. were tried and closed down, but there's no doubting the will to circumvent the rules and therefore it's inevitable that it's still happening, just more clandestinely.

thomond2006 · 17-10-2013 03:06PM

There's a reason it's called 'creative' accounting!

McCBrian · 17-10-2013 04:38PM

The start of the demise of the Really Crap Cup before it is up and running

Toulon saying they will remain in the ERC run H Cup next season and not the RCC

http://www.rugby365.fr/infos-clubs/toulon/toulon-mourad-boudjellal-annonce-que-rct-jouera-h-cup-en-2014-2015-1069200.shtml

thomond2006 · 17-10-2013 04:50PM

But two weeks ago Mourad said the Heineken Cup is dead! Jesus...

Podge_irl · 17-10-2013 04:51PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

But two weeks ago Mourad said the Heineken Cup is dead! Jesus...

I think there is the tiniest possibility that he's completely bat**** crazy.

thomond2006 · 17-10-2013 04:53PM

If you read the article, this just seems be a **** you to the LNR for the new JIFF rules, which definitely affect Mourad.

former legend · 17-10-2013 04:53PM

McCBrian wrote: »

The start of the demise of the Really Crap Cup before it is up and running

Toulon saying they will remain in the ERC run H Cup next season and not the RCC

http://www.rugby365.fr/infos-clubs/toulon/toulon-mourad-boudjellal-annonce-que-rct-jouera-h-cup-en-2014-2015-1069200.shtml

I think the first line says it all; he's only doing this out of spite at the LNR's quotas on JIFF players so it could all change again very rapidly.

McCBrian · 17-10-2013 05:00PM

former legend wrote: »

I think the first line says it all; he's only doing this out of spite at the LNR's quotas on JIFF players so it could all change again very rapidly.

Agree totally FL, but it shows why clubs should not be in charge of running any tournament

Larbre34 · 17-10-2013 05:22PM

I do love Google translate, part of the Mourad thing comes up as "Coming Player dies of Training"

Ive been saying this going back a while, the Pro12 and ERC just need to hold their line firm, because a number of factors will kill off the RCC proposal, among them a lack on unity within the LNR and between LNR/PRL. One of the things certain in life is that French clubs will seldom speak with one voice, and never for long in any case.

iDave · 17-10-2013 05:27PM

More of a fcuk you to LNR than endorsement of ERC. I'll take this with a pinch of salt.

rrpc · 17-10-2013 05:47PM

McCBrian wrote: »

Agree totally FL, but it shows why clubs should not be in charge of running any tournament

Indeed, this wouldn't exactly fill you with the warm fuzzies for a club run competition.

The Really Crap Cup would be notable for its Really Big Tantrums.

molloyjh · 17-10-2013 05:55PM

rrpc wrote: »

Indeed, this wouldn't exactly fill you with the warm fuzzies for a club run competition.

The Really Crap Cup would be notable for its Really Big Tantrums.

To be fair the fact that the clubs for the most part can't run at a profit in the 2 biggest domestic leagues in the NH combined with the HEC is more than reason enough to prevent them from controlling anything!

rrpc · 17-10-2013 06:02PM

iDave wrote: »

More of a fcuk you to LNR than endorsement of ERC. I'll take this with a pinch of salt.

The real problem with this behaviour is that whatever about twelve representatives of six unions (and or leagues etc.)... let's just say nations... not being able to agree on a new accord, what are the chances that 20+ (and that plus could be another 20) representatives could agree on anything?

wp_rathead · 17-10-2013 06:20PM

Toulon say they will back HEC

He said: "In the face of these despicable practices, which are racist and conservative, the club will take part in the H Cup next season since the ERC does not have quotas on foreign players, contrary to the LNR's ruling."

The move may be construed as political postuing by Toulon, and will no doubt anger the Premiership and LNR as they seek to establish the Rugby Champions Cup.

Just when you thought it couldn't become more of a pantomine

themont85 · 17-10-2013 06:24PM

This is like one of those grand IRA splits.

Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

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