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DART capacity reconfiguration

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Comments

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,358 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    It would have made more sense if IR had introduced 4 car sets as the minimum configuration first before they went to 2 car sets. They could then use all railcar sets as either new or old style. They then run as either 4 car or 8 car, no 6 car sets. When this is stable - that is they know when trains are over capacity. They can then adjust the mix, introducing 2 and 6 car sets as required.

    They should perhaps switch to a 10 min frequency on the Dart, terminating Bray bound diesels at Pearse, and running them back from Grand Canal Dock, meeting the North-bound Dart and passengers crossing the platform. The timetabled travelling time for the diesels is the same as the Dart even though they stop at fewer stops.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,714 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    It would have made more sense if IR had introduced 4 car sets as the minimum configuration first before they went to 2 car sets. They could then use all railcar sets as either new or old style. They then run as either 4 car or 8 car, no 6 car sets. When this is stable - that is they know when trains are over capacity. They can then adjust the mix, introducing 2 and 6 car sets as required.

    They should perhaps switch to a 10 min frequency on the Dart, terminating Bray bound diesels at Pearse, and running them back from Grand Canal Dock, meeting the North-bound Dart and passengers crossing the platform. The timetabled travelling time for the diesels is the same as the Dart even though they stop at fewer stops.

    When the city centre resignalling project is complete, the third platform at GCD will come into use. The current northbound platform will become a turnback platform for diesel services from Drogheda, Maynooth and possibly Kildare, while the current out of use platform will become the northbound through platform.

    At peak times there are extra DART services slotted into the basic 15 minute frequency, three in either direction in the morning peak, three southbound late-afternoon to Dun Laoghaire, which return northbound in the evening peak.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,358 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    lxflyer wrote: »
    When the city centre resignalling project is complete, the third platform at GCD will come into use. The current northbound platform will become a turnback platform for diesel services from Drogheda, Maynooth and possibly Kildare, while the current out of use platform will become the northbound through platform.

    Does that mean someone coming from Bray to Maynooth (currently a through train) will be able to cross the platform and the Maynooth train will depart before the Dart? Or will the Dart continue on its merry way leaving the Maynooth train to wait till it has gone?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,456 ✭✭✭bikeman1


    Does that mean someone coming from Bray to Maynooth (currently a through train) will be able to cross the platform and the Maynooth train will depart before the Dart? Or will the Dart continue on its merry way leaving the Maynooth train to wait till it has gone?

    I would imagine that the through Bray to Maynooth / Drogheda trains will continue. They serve quite a lot of passengers who work on the southside of the city, especially Lansdowne Road and are a huge bonus for attracting the commuters of North Dublin and the Maynooth line onto the train. Also there can be space restrictions in Pearse/GCD, if all services start and finish there.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,714 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Does that mean someone coming from Bray to Maynooth (currently a through train) will be able to cross the platform and the Maynooth train will depart before the Dart? Or will the Dart continue on its merry way leaving the Maynooth train to wait till it has gone?
    bikeman1 wrote: »
    I would imagine that the through Bray to Maynooth / Drogheda trains will continue. They serve quite a lot of passengers who work on the southside of the city, especially Lansdowne Road and are a huge bonus for attracting the commuters of North Dublin and the Maynooth line onto the train. Also there can be space restrictions in Pearse/GCD, if all services start and finish there.

    I would imagine that those diesel trains that do so will continue to operate through to Bray - for one thing they add extra capacity without requiring an additional train/driver.

    As bikeman1 says - space is limited in the city centre area, and continuing to operate them south doesn't use up a DART path as the 15 minute frequency is maintained.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,936 ✭✭✭LEIN


    lxflyer wrote: »
    When the city centre resignalling project is complete, the third platform at GCD will come into use. The current northbound platform will become a turnback platform for diesel services from Drogheda, Maynooth and possibly Kildare, while the current out of use platform will become the northbound through platform.

    Electrification needs to take place for that platform too.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,714 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    DD9090 wrote: »
    Electrification needs to take place for that platform too.

    That is all part of the city centre resignalling project - the track east of Pearse will be remodelled and resignalled.

    This work is now out to tender (which for some poster's benefit I discovered through a google search):

    http://www.mytenders.ie/search/show/search_view.aspx?ID=SEP410499
    Signalling, Telecoms and OHLE Works for CCRP Phases 3 & 4.
    IE is seeking expressions of interest from suitably qualified contractors
    with experience of complex railway system projects for the carrying out of
    Signalling, Telecoms and Overhead Line Equipment (OHLE) works required for
    Phase 3 of the City Centre Re-Signalling Project.
    The City Centre Re-Signalling Project (CCRP) is a strategic re-signalling
    project covering the DART network. The project is divided into four
    interrelated phases for ease of management and control. Phases 3 & 4 are a
    continuation of the existing Phases 1 & 2, which are now nearing
    completion. Phase 3 comprises Connolly Station to Sandymount, with
    permanent way changes at Grand Canal Dock (GCD). Phase 4 covers Connolly
    Station area.
    The scope of this tender will include works relating to Phase 3 only. It
    is intended to enter into an Early Collaboration Contract with the
    successful tenderer.
    The Phase 3 Signalling, Telecoms and OHLE works are comprised of the
    following:
    — Provision of signalling to cater for a centre road terminating turn back
    facility for southbound trains at Grand Canal Dock Station adjacent to
    platform 2.
    — Re-signalling of the area between Connolly and Sandymount including the
    replacement of the life expired 3 aspect signalling system based on relay
    interlocking with a modern multi-aspect system based on solid state
    interlocking.
    — Provision of wayside systems that are suitable for both automatic train
    protection (ATP) technology and continuous automatic warning systems
    (CAWS).
    — Replacement of the existing track circuits with axle counters.
    — Provision of point machines to all new points.
    — Replacement of relay based level crossing control with Siemens S7
    Fail-Safe Programmable Logic Control (PLC) at Lansdowne Road level
    crossing and at Serpentine Avenue level crossing.
    — Provision of a new signalling power distribution system with
    Uninterrupted Power Supply and backup diesel generators.
    — Provision of new fibre transmission nodes at strategic points to provide
    circuits for line side phones, train radio and signalling.
    — Upgrade of the PABX system and installation of new line side telephones.
    — Modification of the layout of the overhead line equipment (OHLE) as
    necessary for a turnback facility at Grand Canal Dock station.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 416 ✭✭davidlacey


    On the 8:10 dart from bray just now and it was a four car set needless to say It was packed to unsafe levels and people were turned away at stations. I do not see IEs thinking in this other than annoying ppl so much that they are forced to go back to the way things are through political pressure. 8:10 is a peak time end of! there can be no argument about that, it is getting ridiculous when you have examples of this and then at off peak times sit in 8 carriage sets. Typical IE management.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 182 ✭✭jayobray


    IE blaming drivers this morning for refusing to carry out coupler checks, resulting in 2 and 4 carriage DARTs only during peaktime. There's going to be some serious overcrowding issues this morning.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,358 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I think the problem is coming from the drivers refusal to reconfigure the trains after the weekend. All the Darts appear to be the 4-car configuration used during the weekend.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 430 ✭✭lil5


    Irish Rail apologises as ‘driver issue’ reduces DART capacity - Independent.ie
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-rail-apologises-as-driver-issue-reduces-dart-capacity-29657673.html
    14 October 2013
    COMMUTERS using the DART this morning face possible delays as some services are operating with reduced peak-time capacity due to what Irish Rail has described as a “driver issue”.

    Peak time DARTs normally operate with a mix of 8-carriage, 6-carriage and 4-carriage train

    “The effect of this issue will be that most DARTs will operate as a 4-carriage train, and a small number will operate as a 2-carriage train,” it added.

    “We apologise for the inconvenience caused.

    “This is due to a refusal by drivers to carry out a coupler check before DART trains leave the depot to enter service.”

    ...

    “Drivers had been carrying out the check since its introduction last month. ”

    “However, following SIPTU indicating, outside of agreed procedures, that it would no longer cooperate with this check, they are not being carried out by drivers today resulting in shorter trains.”


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭Decuc500


    Yeah this morning was great craic. People couldn't get on my 4 carriage dart at Killester. I just presumed it was Irish Rail saving money.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭DubOnHoliday


    davidlacey wrote: »
    On the 8:10 dart from bray just now and it was a four car set needless to say It was packed to unsafe levels and people were turned away at stations. I do not see IEs thinking in this other than annoying ppl so much that they are forced to go back to the way things are through political pressure. 8:10 is a peak time end of! there can be no argument about that, it is getting ridiculous when you have examples of this and then at off peak times sit in 8 carriage sets. Typical IE management.
    lucky you didn't wait for the 8:30 from Greystones which was a TWO car!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 486 ✭✭EricPraline


    jayobray wrote: »
    IE blaming drivers this morning for refusing to carry out coupler checks, resulting in 2 and 4 carriage DARTs only during peaktime. There's going to be some serious overcrowding issues this morning.
    Have heard it's extremely unpleasant this morning. Unfortunately this just reenforces the idea that the DART isn't a commuting option that can be relied upon.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,958 ✭✭✭eigrod


    Decuc500 wrote: »
    Yeah this morning was great craic. People couldn't get on my 4 carriage dart at Killester. I just presumed it was Irish Rail saving money.

    It is, indirectly at least. If they weren't splitting the DARTs in the first place, there would be no need to put them back together.

    Their tweets this morning are an insult to the paying public too. Blaming the drivers with the clear intention of absolving themselves of any fault. Clearly risk management and contingency hasn't entered the corridors of Irish Rail at all.

    Aside from all the delays and severe discomfort this morning, the health and safety of passengers was clearly a major issue, both on the platforms and on the trains themselves.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,590 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    How on earth are train safety checks "outside of agreed procedures" before taking control of a train / releasing a train for ops when the lack of capacity directly endangers customers when IE (and their staff) know the demand will be far in excess of 2 or 4 carriage capacity?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 784 ✭✭✭Cunning Alias


    How on earth are train safety checks "outside of agreed procedures" before taking control of a train / releasing a train for ops when the lack of capacity directly endangers customers when IE (and their staff) know the demand will be far in excess of 2 or 4 carriage capacity?

    Considering SIPTU haven't come out and defended themselves, I am inclined to believe that the statements in the Irish Times are correct.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/shorter-darts-lead-to-overcrowding-for-commuters-1.1560110

    Sounds like the unions are going to try for more money as their poor members have been asked to do extra work.

    Edit: It seems that if the staff are given new work to do, they can refuse to do it as it is not part of their agreed tasks. It doesn't seem to matter how hard the work is.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,590 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    nice - when IE introduced longer DARTs the unions wanted more money because they were "being more productive" driving longer trains. Now they want more money for driving shorter trains?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,738 ✭✭✭✭josip


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I think you're mixing Drumcondra up with Pearse - it was Dublin/Galway drivers that clocked in at Pearse and then went to Heuston to pick up their train. This went back to the days when Galway trains operated from Connolly.

    Thankfully that sort of nonsense is long gone.

    ...

    Is this morning's coupling check fiasco an example of "that sort of nonsense" or something else?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,650 ✭✭✭Infini


    From my understanding of the issue its related to the fact that drivers are meant to be drivers not maintinence. It's all due to cutbacks these checks were started because of the way theyre constantly uncoupling and banging up 2 carrige darts all the time and the drivers are being told they have to walk up and down an Eight carrige dart twice to check the thing before it leaves in the morning/evening.

    Issue here is this is a maintinence issue and should be looked after by them but theyre being cut back by managment. From what I can put together Drivers just simply got told by the unions that this is a maintnence issue not a driver issue and the coupler test is their responsibility. Drivers are there to drive the trains.

    It is a safety issue and its not fair on the passengers but lets not fool ourselves the goverment is cutting back on the subsidies and theres not that many people travelling. On top of that theres stations being left unmanned all over the shop and everything else this is just the cracks starting to show.


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,358 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    IR would have a lot more money if they actually collected the fares. I have witnessed many occasion of fare evasion, in full view of staff who did nothing to correct the situation (well its not their job). What is needed is more inspectors. There between none and not very many on the Dart service that I have seen (and by not very many, I mean none).

    Either they enforce ticket compliance by making it difficult to evade or adopt the Luas system and have very frequent inspections on trains, so evaders get caught - including fraudulent use of the free-travel pass).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,432 ✭✭✭markpb


    Infini2 wrote: »
    From my understanding of the issue its related to the fact that drivers are meant to be drivers not maintenance.

    It is nothing of the sort. Checking that the train is safe before putting it into service is not maintenance. In any case, this is petulant sulking by the unions. Of course, they'll be along soon to tell us how checking doors it the thin end of the wedge, a race to the bottom, undermining their working conditions, blah blah blah.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭Decuc500


    I wonder will this issue be sorted by evening rush hour? Mind you pretty much every dart to the Northside in the evening is only 4 carriages anyway so I probably won't notice a difference.:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,270 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    markpb wrote: »
    It is nothing of the sort. Checking that the train is safe before putting it into service is not maintenance. In any case, this is petulant sulking by the unions. .

    The thing here is that the drivers take on the train from Maintenance on the premise that it's fit for purpose having been correctly serviced by qualified staff. While door and brake tests are carried out in traffic, this specifc test is being performed by a driver who isn't qualified to service or test the train when out of traffic and when the train isn't his responsibility. If the worst happened and the doors failed in service, who is responsible; the mechanic or the driver? Who signs off on the test?

    For the record, I agree that it is petulent stuff but it's an issue that should have been sorted out before it came to this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,295 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Pilots always do pre-flight checks. Why shouldn't train drivers do pre-departure checks?

    Or is this the only one they're being asked to do?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,270 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    n97 mini wrote: »
    Pilots always do pre-flight checks. Why shouldn't train drivers do pre-departure checks?

    Or is this the only one they're being asked to do?

    Train drivers do pre departure tests as well. The tests in question are done as part of train servicing prior to it carrying passengers; it's akin to a pilot doing a pre flight check whilst in the hangar and not the departure gate.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,835 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Train drivers do pre departure tests as well. The tests in question are done as part of train servicing prior to it carrying passengers; it's akin to a pilot doing a pre flight check whilst in the hangar and not the departure gate.

    I think you will find pre flight checks are taken at departure gates especially by pilots. Aircraft only visit the hanger certain times in there checks schedule unless there is a problem that requires parts to be fitted which can't be carried out at the gate. There is no justification for this action by the drivers and this is also clear within the union who won't even comment on it as to why its happening publicly.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,358 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Do bus drivers check their vehicle before driving off? How do lorry drivers handle the trailer part of the artic - or is that what the helper is for?

    How many Dart drivers are there? 50, 60, 100?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 465 ✭✭Rootsblower


    The current standoff between SIPTU and IE is on the issue of coupler integrity tests. Over the last few months a couple of incidents have arisen where 2 or more EMU's have departed stations with doors open. The blue interlock light a driver gets when all doors are closed allows drivers to be sure all doors are locked before traction power can be taken. If the interlock light is not illuminated then traction power is not available. With 2 or more EMU's coupled then the leading unit gets a constant reading from all other units in the consist that is known as being "train lined". The current coupler problem means that the driver of a multiple EMU may get a blue interlock light in their leading unit but the signal travelling through the coupler is not being detected properly and doors on other units in the consist may not be closed therefore the consist is not "train lined" . If the leading unit has an interlock light and the electrical signal is not travelling correctly through the coupler heads then the leading unit may be able to take traction power with doors open on other units of the consist which has obvious safety implications. Drivers have no objection in carrying out any sort of pre departure tests on their trains but what happens if the problem arises out the line after pre departure check have been carried out and all is found to be ok in the depot. Drivers tests are a belts and braces approach they are a double check of the tests maintenance have carried out. Because IE are short on funds maintenance personal have been cut back so therefore less people with the same amount of work. Eventually something has to give. At the end of the day the driver is solely responsible for the train and people aboard it. Why should a person put themselves at risk of falling afoul of the Railway Safety Act 2005 and ending up in prison for 10 years with deaths on their hands because of IE not making sure that the trains they run are safe and sound. Going further on what other problems are lurking underneath the surface with the safety of our train. If a driver cant even trust the integrity of the holy grail of train safety, the blue interlock light , then we as a travelling public are in some bother. In my opinion this is like a pilot taking off knowing the door at the front is closed but not being to sure about the rear door. By drivers completing these tests it kicks the can down the road for IE and the onus is off them to correct this vitally important safety system quickly.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 784 ✭✭✭Cunning Alias


    ^^ Paragraphs are you friend. Don't ignore them.

    Darts are partially back to normal apparently: http://www.irishrail.ie/cat_news.jsp?i=4929&p=116&n=237


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