Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

irishbucsfan · 12-10-2013 02:44PM

its_phil wrote: »

I heard it from someone I know with close Leicester sources that Leicester had very high suspicions that clubs were paying money to players spouses to make up the difference. That was said to me in the first year of the salary cap

No evidence, just what someone said.

All of that is audited. They've been watching it very closely since 2009.

its_phil · 12-10-2013 03:01PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

All of that is audited. They've been watching it very closely since 2009.

I'm still suspicious though. It just doesn't seem like a level playing field in England when you look at the players at Bath and Sarries.

irishbucsfan · 12-10-2013 03:09PM

its_phil wrote: »

I'm still suspicious though. It just doesn't seem like a level playing field in England when you look at the players at Bath and Sarries.

Not at all really when you sit down and work it out.

You could say the same thing about Sarries and Worcester. Nothing suggests everyone is using all their salary cap space. It's very easy to throw those accusations around but if you get to meet or hear from Andrew Rogers you'll realise they are held to strict standards. Premiership clubs don't compete with the provinces or French when it comes to spending power. And until they get more money coming in they won't.

There are suggestions that they want to better incentivise EQ players next time around as well so they might get more wiggle room through that.

OldRio · 12-10-2013 04:07PM

Salary cap ?
It seems rumours are rife. In fact a confidential hotline has been set up.

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/435373/Aviva-Premiership-sets-up-hotline-to-catch-salary-cheats

irishbucsfan · 12-10-2013 05:09PM

OldRio wrote: »

Salary cap ?
It seems rumours are rife. In fact a confidential hotline has been set up.

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/435373/Aviva-Premiership-sets-up-hotline-to-catch-salary-cheats

There have been allegations of cheating since the summer. I think since Vunipola signed for Sarries in particular. But nothing has come of them despite lots of investigation.

It all came up in 2009 as well, I think someone was penalised for it. It's certainly not a widespread thing in the league, and there'll always be accusations of this sort of thing.

bilston · 12-10-2013 05:22PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes they all spend the same amount. That's the point of the salary cap!

It's 4.3m I think plus 30,000 for each up to a certain number for players in their squad who have graduated from their academy. And then they get to have one player excluded from that salary cap.

I thought it was something like but wasnt sure if bigger clubs had a higher cap. IMO if the English allowed the bigger clubs to spend a bit more on salaries they would probably be more competitive in Europe. At the moment the likes of Leicester and Northampton seem to be constrained for the benefit ofthe smaller clubs.

irishbucsfan · 12-10-2013 05:24PM

bilston wrote: »

Well fine but IMO if the English allowed the bigger clubs to spend a bit more on salaries they would probably be more competitive in Europe. At the moment the likes of Leicester and Northampton seem to be constrained for the benefit ofthe smaller clubs.

But then the bigger clubs would dominate Premiership and the rich would get richer? There'd be no more Exeters for example.

The Salary Cap was put in for that very reason.

Zzippy · 12-10-2013 05:26PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

There have been allegations of cheating since the summer. I think since Vunipola signed for Sarries in particular. But nothing has come of them despite lots of investigation.

It all came up in 2009 as well, I think someone was penalised for it. It's certainly not a widespread thing in the league, and there'll always be accusations of this sort of thing.

What's the going rate in Europe for a player of international quality, €250-300K? If you go through Saracens squad there are at least 10 players who could command that - Ashton, Barritt, Borthwick, Brits, Brown, Farrell, Goode, Hodgson, Stevens, Strettle, Vunipola (x2). Some would be on considerably more (Farrell for one). That's 2.5-3m euro gone, then you have to pay the rest of the squad (28 more players), let's say the average rate there is 100k, thats another 2.8m. And that's being conservative - if English clubs weren't paying those rates there would be a mass exodus to France, where some of the clubs can afford to pay bigger salaries. Look at Sexton on 600-750K, depending on who's reporting - if Farrell wasn't on at least 500K he would be heavily linked with clubs in France, which he hasn't been.
So you get a budget of 5.3-5.8m euro, which is £4.5-4.9m sterling, well above the so-called salary cap. And that's being conservative with the salary estimates

bilston · 12-10-2013 11:55PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

But then the bigger clubs would dominate Premiership and the rich would get richer? There'd be no more Exeters for example.

The Salary Cap was put in for that very reason.

Yes I get that but it's still holding back the biggest clubs.

rrpc · 13-10-2013 09:20AM

I think it was Northampton were complaining that they could barely pay a 35 man squad and asking how some clubs had bigger squads. They mentioned two that had 54 and 51 players respectively, but didn't name them.

As for auditing them, that's a joke. You can only audit what's on the books. If an owner wants to pay players extra money off shore from their own accounts, or other mechanisms, no audit will find that.

sydthebeat · 13-10-2013 09:24AM

there is simply too many English clubs to be supported on the financial foundation they have. The are not 'cutting their clothe to measure'

Clearlier · 13-10-2013 09:40AM

I prefer to see the game more widely spread. I applaud what the English clubs have done re: a salary cap and if there was a way to implement that Europe wide I would be totally in favour of it. I recognise that it would take a big effort and a lot of goodwill on all sides - not to mention the potential difficulties with competition law - but for me it would represent an attempt to promote innovation rather than focusing on money as the key differentiator between teams.

irishbucsfan · 13-10-2013 10:12AM

rrpc wrote: »

I think it was Northampton were complaining that they could barely pay a 35 man squad and asking how some clubs had bigger squads. They mentioned two that had 54 and 51 players respectively, but didn't name them.

As for auditing them, that's a joke. You can only audit what's on the books. If an owner wants to pay players extra money off shore from their own accounts, or other mechanisms, no audit will find that.

It may be difficult to find but it is included within the scope of the salary cap at least.

It's not a joke at all.

irishbucsfan · 13-10-2013 11:56AM

The Celtic nations and Italy will meet the Rugby Football Union next week ready to make concessions to ensure that European club rugby continues next season after the English and French sides pull out of the Heineken Cup.

The RFU chief executive, Ian Ritchie, has been in regular contact with Premiership Rugby and is keen to help broker an agreement that will satisfy both clubs and unions. That would mean the end of European Rugby Cup, which has organised the Heineken Cup since its inception in 1995.

The meeting is an acknowledgement that the two-day summit called by ERC on 23 October in Dublin will be a futile exercise, with the English and French clubs saying they will not be attending. The four RaboDirect unions – Wales, Ireland, Scotland and Italy – are ready to make concessions on two key issues: a meritocratic qualification process and an equal division of money between the three leagues that feed into the Heineken and Amlin Challenge Cups, and they are ready to talk about control.

...

According to Paul Rees in the Guardian http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/oct/12/celtic-nations-european-heineken-cup

13-10-2013 12:16PM

Hopefully if it goes to a 20 team comp its 6-6-6-2 with the next spot going to the next best placed team from the winning union if that happens.

Grandpa Hassan · 13-10-2013 12:26PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

According to Paul Rees in the Guardian http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/oct/12/celtic-nations-european-heineken-cup

Much what was said in the Times earlier in the week. The ERC is finished. And it is positive that everyone is talking. There will be European rugby next season I have no doubt, with changes in governance and qualification. I imagine the broadcasting negotiations will be complex, but at the end of the day, that is just detail

irishbucsfan · 13-10-2013 01:22PM

connemara man wrote: »

Hopefully if it goes to a 20 team comp its 6-6-6-2 with the next spot going to the next best placed team from the winning union if that happens.

I'd imagine it will go to the next best placed team in each league, which it should

Clearlier · 13-10-2013 01:38PM

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Much what was said in the Times earlier in the week. The ERC is finished. And it is positive that everyone is talking. There will be European rugby next season I have no doubt, with changes in governance and qualification. I imagine the broadcasting negotiations will be complex, but at the end of the day, that is just detail

I know that Welsh rugby has a recent habit of shooting themselves in the foot but this one takes the biscuit.

they are using their influence with Premiership Rugby to push for the financial pie to be divided by teams rather than leagues.

One assumes that they are looking to become independent of the WRU and are hoping that this gives them the opportunity.

CatFromHue · 13-10-2013 01:39PM

I presume the seedings will have to change then to reflect where a team finished in their respective home league table?

Edit: The WRU still gives the Welsh teams a fair bit of cash if I remember right. Probably not enough but still they do contribute.

backgreen · 13-10-2013 01:43PM

according to fintan drury in thr times today the future of pro rugby is with the club game
the international game will be a side issue down the line...sponsership/broadcasting rights/ and tickets sales is what will drive the game and only the clubs can provide this efficiently

Clearlier · 13-10-2013 01:45PM

backgreen wrote: »

according to fintan drury in thr times today the future of pro rugby is with the club game
the international game will be a side issue down the line...sponsership/broadcasting rights/ and tickets sales is what will drive the game...

I'd hazard a guess that he thinks that rugby is soccer lite.

irishbucsfan · 13-10-2013 01:45PM

Clearlier wrote: »

I know that Welsh rugby has a recent habit of shooting themselves in the foot but this one takes the biscuit.

One assumes that they are looking to become independent of the WRU and are hoping that this gives them the opportunity.

I think it effectively is them trying to ensure that they are getting the full whack out of European participation and not having to share. Don't think they'd be anywhere near capable of becoming fully independent at the moment.

JPCN1 · 13-10-2013 01:46PM

backgreen wrote: »

according to fintan drury in thr times today the future of pro rugby is with the club game
the international game will be a side issue down the line...sponsership/broadcasting rights/ and tickets sales is what will drive the game...

And would Fintan gain financially were this come to pass?

danthefan · 13-10-2013 01:46PM

backgreen wrote: »

according to fintan drury in thr times today the future of pro rugby is with the club game
the international game will be a side issue down the line...sponsership/broadcasting rights/ and tickets sales is what will drive the game...

Wages getting driven up benefits Drury and his clients obviously, he's about as impartial as Frankie Sheahan giving a MotM award.

backgreen · 13-10-2013 01:52PM

danthefan wrote: »

Wages getting driven up benefits Drury and his clients obviously, he's about as impartial as Frankie Sheahan giving a MotM award.

i agree with you but i think it could very well go that way

bilston · 13-10-2013 02:06PM

backgreen wrote: »

according to fintan drury in thr times today the future of pro rugby is with the club game
the international game will be a side issue down the line...sponsership/broadcasting rights/ and tickets sales is what will drive the game and only the clubs can provide this efficiently

Let's see the lie of the land in 10-20 years as the domestic game has definitely grown quickly in the last two decades, but it still has a long way to go to overtake the international game IMO.

icdg · 13-10-2013 04:25PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Why can't they block the individual programming at software level then? There's no need for a new channel. Rights have been divided like that before on Sky's services.

On a technical level it is certainly possible, although usually done in the opposite direction, and BT/ESPN currently block ROI viewers from UEFA Europa League football on a Thursday night. But if has never been done on a Sky branded channel and Sky would have to weigh up the ROI subscriptions it would gain would be worth losing a Sky Sports channel from the UK for, if not the guts of an entire weekend, certainly up to eight hours if they only showed games involving Irish teams. That would be a substantial amount of advertising minutes lost. One side-effect is that you would almost certainly see Irish teams games being played in early kick-off slots, for instance, to minimise the effect that would have. No more Friday night games at any rate, or any games in evening peak time where the maximum advertising rate card applies.

But that's hypothetically speaking, in reality I don't think Sky would go for any rights they could not broadcast in both jurisdictions. They've somehow managed to persaude UEFA to allow them to broadcast their Champions League coverage in Ireland despite the fact that UEFA have sold the rights to the same games to RTÉ and TV3 - something UEFA do not allow ITV and BT Sport to do similarly for the Europa League.

keps · 14-10-2013 07:58AM

today's telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/10376037/RFU-to-meet-Celtic-and-Italian-unions-to-thrash-out-compromise-in-row-over-Heineken-Cup-future.html

Cookiemunster · 14-10-2013 09:15AM

keps wrote: »

today's telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/10376037/RFU-to-meet-Celtic-and-Italian-unions-to-thrash-out-compromise-in-row-over-Heineken-Cup-future.html

It is understood, however, that a compromise of each country having one club representative and one union representative on a new 12-man board will be put on the table.

Isn't that basically what there already? RFU and PRL, FFR and LNR, WRU and RRW are represented on the ERC board. In Scotland and Ireland the Unions are the clubs and Italy currently only has one representative.

irishbucsfan · 14-10-2013 09:39AM

Cookiemunster wrote: »

It is understood, however, that a compromise of each country having one club representative and one union representative on a new 12-man board will be put on the table.

Isn't that basically what there already? RFU and PRL, FFR and LNR, WRU and RRW are represented on the ERC board. In Scotland and Ireland the Unions are the clubs and Italy currently only has one representative.

No, not really. They are there but, for example, the LNR can have their vote taken off them whenever FFR feel like it.

But that's not as important as how the votes are split.

Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

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