Is there a differance between the Real IRA and the Continuity IRA?

Howard Juneau · 07-10-2013 08:46PM

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

And what do you base that on?

The fact she wasn't a British collaborator

Tramps Like Us · 07-10-2013 08:49PM

Howard Juneau wrote: »

The fact she wasn't a British collaborator

Why do you think that?

Iwasfrozen · 07-10-2013 08:52PM

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

Why do you think that?

I don't know whether she was or not but informing on a terrorist organisation is a noble act that shouldn't have seen her killed.

The who · 07-10-2013 08:55PM

Manassas61 wrote: »

FTA69 wrote: »

There is no evidence she was an informer. This is propaganda of the worst degree. Her family have denied she was an informer.

The PIRA as murderous thugs thought they were the law and decided to murder her and not even return her body. Scandalous.

Of course her family said she wasnt an informer, they were mad that she was shot and turned agaisnt the army

FTA69 · 07-10-2013 10:23PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't know whether she was or not but informing on a terrorist organisation is a noble act that shouldn't have seen her killed.

Let's look at who she was passing information to for a second will we? In the early 1970s the British Army was implementing internment, a process whereby thousands of innocent people were abducted from their homes and imprisoned without trial in camps. Within these camps the British Army routinely beat and tortured their captives and were later taken to the European Court for things such as mock executions, throwing people out of helicopters and general other torture tactics. They had also, a few months before, killed 14 innocent civilians on the streets of Derry as well as committed a massacre of civilians in Ballymurphy. And you think collaborating with that shower is a "noble act"?

Unfortunately there has always been a dose of cringing toadyism in Ireland and the above statement shows it's alive and well today.

Howard Juneau · 07-10-2013 10:39PM

FTA69 wrote: »

Let's look at who she was passing information to for a second will we? In the early 1970s the British Army was implementing internment, a process whereby thousands of innocent people were abducted from their homes and imprisoned without trial in camps. Within these camps the British Army routinely beat and tortured their captives and were later taken to the European Court for things such as mock executions, throwing people out of helicopters and general other torture tactics. They had also, a few months before, killed 14 innocent civilians on the streets of Derry as well as committed a massacre of civilians in Ballymurphy. And you think collaborating with that shower is a "noble act"?

Unfortunately there has always been a dose of cringing toadyism in Ireland and the above statement shows it's alive and well today.

Let's see any of this information passed, any records at all , maybe a smidgen of a piece of paper?

Crooked Jack · 07-10-2013 10:46PM

Howard Juneau wrote: »

Let's see any of this information passed, any records at all , maybe a smidgen of a piece of paper?

We'd all love to see some of the british army records from those days. im always amused that people take brendan hughes and marion price's word as gospel when they say Adams ordered her killing, but suddenly the same people have no credibility when they say she was klled because she was a brit agent

FTA69 · 07-10-2013 10:48PM

Yeah, because that sort of information is always in the public domain like. It's hardly common practice to divulge records of your informants. She was apparently caught twice, Ed Moloney details the incident in his book. And it's a far more likely scenario than her being shot for no reason other than Republican psychopathy.

Howard Juneau · 07-10-2013 10:54PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

We'd all love to see some of the british army records from those days. im always amused that people take brendan hughes and marion price's word as gospel when they say Adams ordered her killing, but suddenly the same people have no credibility when they say she was klled because she was a brit agent

Have never suggested that Adams had anything to do with it

Howard Juneau · 07-10-2013 10:54PM

FTA69 wrote: »

Yeah, because that sort of information is always in the public domain like. It's hardly common practice to divulge records of your informants. She was apparently caught twice, Ed Moloney details the incident in his book. And it's a far more likely scenario than her being shot for no reason other than Republican psychopathy.

So no proof then? Ah that's grand.

Iwasfrozen · 07-10-2013 11:17PM

FTA69 wrote: »

Let's look at who she was passing information to for a second will we? In the early 1970s the British Army was implementing internment, a process whereby thousands of innocent people were abducted from their homes and imprisoned without trial in camps. Within these camps the British Army routinely beat and tortured their captives and were later taken to the European Court for things such as mock executions, throwing people out of helicopters and general other torture tactics. They had also, a few months before, killed 14 innocent civilians on the streets of Derry as well as committed a massacre of civilians in Ballymurphy. And you think collaborating with that shower is a "noble act"?

Unfortunately there has always been a dose of cringing toadyism in Ireland and the above statement shows it's alive and well today.

What nonsense. The point in bold is the only point I'll concede. When Howard Juneau rightly called your bluff and asked for evidence you couldn't provide any. I'm not interested in discussing fevered republican ranting.

Howard Juneau wrote: »

So no proof then? Ah that's grand.

Who needs proof when we already know they did it? :rolleyes:

FTA69 · 07-10-2013 11:31PM

What nonsense. The point in bold is the only point I'll concede. When Howard Juneau rightly called your bluff and asked for evidence you couldn't provide any. I'm not interested in discussing fevered republican ranting.

I couldn't care less what you may or may not feel like conceding to be honest, everything I've stated is demonstrable fact.

1) Internment happened. Most victims of it were innocent people who had nothing to do with the IRA.
2) In the internment camps, captives were subjected to prohibited human rights abuses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_techniques
3) The Brits killed eleven civilians in Ballymurphy in 1971. One died of a heart attack after a mock execution in the street after a soldier dry-fired a pistol in his mouth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballymurphy_Massacre

Everything I've said above is well-recorded historical fact. I'm sorry if that spoils your ridiculous black-and-white notion of noble Brits and evil Paddies, but yet it remains the case. And you're telling us all it's a "noble act" to collaborate with the people above? Gas man altogether. And what's even more funny is your acute ignorance of what they actually got up to in Ireland.

FTA69 · 07-10-2013 11:31PM

Howard Juneau wrote: »

So no proof then? Ah that's grand.

So why do you think she was killed?

Howard Juneau · 07-10-2013 11:38PM

FTA69 wrote: »

So why do you think she was killed?

I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the IRA, so I wouldn't like to guess, it'd probably be as wrong as the informant propaganda

Iwasfrozen · 07-10-2013 11:51PM

FTA69 wrote: »

1) Internment happened. Most victims of it were innocent people who had nothing to do with the IRA.

First off don't use the word victims. Secondly imagine actually locking up someone who might turn out to be innocent. Damn FTA those Brits sure are evil. I'm surprised you haven't been mauled to death in London!

Back to the topic at hand locking up a person suspected of terrorism is hardly a cruel or usual punishment. Maybe the person isn't a terrorist but maybe they are and if so it's vitally important that they're taken off the streets asap. Ok innocent people may be arrested but they always are in any investigation.

2) In the internment camps, captives were subjected to prohibited human rights abuses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_techniques

Did you even read your own link? The article states explicitly that the five techniques did not amount to torture.
The British, after the findings of the court admitted they were wrong and ceased carrying out the methods. What's the problem?

3) The Brits killed eleven civilians in Ballymurphy in 1971. One died of a heart attack after a mock execution in the street after a soldier dry-fired a pistol in his mouth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballymurphy_Massacre

"The unit selected for this operation was the Parachute Regiment; the same regiment who were later responsible for the shootings in Derry on 30 January 1972."

You shouldn't blame the entire army for one bad unit. Remember the British were there as peacekeepers. The republicans saw them as a foreign army and were hostile to them. Tensions flared and isolated incidents like this were inevitable.

Everything I've said above is well-recorded historical fact. I'm sorry if that spoils your ridiculous black-and-white notion of noble Brits and evil Paddies, but yet it remains the case. And you're telling us all it's a "noble act" to collaborate with the people above? Gas man altogether. And what's even more funny is your acute ignorance of what they actually got up to in Ireland.

I don't have a black white view of anything I have very little love for Northern Ireland at all and I hope to God your grimy history and hate filled fractious little country never despoils the Republic.

Nodin · 08-10-2013 12:07AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You shouldn't blame the entire army for one bad unit. Remember the British were there as peacekeepers. The republicans saw them as a foreign army and were hostile to them. Tensions flared and isolated incidents like this were inevitable.

.

The type of action seen in NI in the early 1970's was typical 'colonial policing' and was bog standard in the BA. The notion of some rogue unit is laughable.

Iwasfrozen wrote:

First off don't use the word victims. Secondly imagine actually locking up
someone who might turn out to be innocent

I don't see why "victim" doesn't apply and I've no idea where you're going with the rest of that.

Iwasfrozen wrote:

What nonsense. The point in bold is the only point I'll concede

You're denying the beatings now?

.jacksparrow. · 08-10-2013 08:29AM

I find it funny the same people asking for proof of certain things, are the first to point to Adams been in the Ira without any proof.

.jacksparrow. · 08-10-2013 08:40AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

First off don't use the word victims. Secondly imagine actually locking up someone who might turn out to be innocent. Damn FTA those Brits sure are evil. I'm surprised you haven't been mauled to death in London!

Back to the topic at hand locking up a person suspected of terrorism is hardly a cruel or usual punishment. Maybe the person isn't a terrorist but maybe they are and if so it's vitally important that they're taken off the streets asap. Ok innocent people may be arrested but they always are in any investigation.

Did you even read your own link? The article states explicitly that the five techniques did not amount to torture.

The British, after the findings of the court admitted they were wrong and ceased carrying out the methods. What's the problem?

"The unit selected for this operation was the Parachute Regiment; the same regiment who were later responsible for the shootings in Derry on 30 January 1972."

You shouldn't blame the entire army for one bad unit. Remember the British were there as peacekeepers. The republicans saw them as a foreign army and were hostile to them. Tensions flared and isolated incidents like this were inevitable.

I don't have a black white view of anything I have very little love for Northern Ireland at all and I hope to God your grimy history and hate filled fractious little country never despoils the Republic.

Well if they weren't victims what were they?

You're opinion that people should be interned on suspicion of something is as dangerous as the US of As great idea about gunentamano bay
and how they deal with people.

If you think this is acceptable behavior of governments you must have a warped view of human and civil rights.

Tramps Like Us · 08-10-2013 09:11AM

I know a number of men who were interned and tortured, one of whom had only slight connections to the civil rights movement and none to the republican movement - he was just staying in a friends house - it actually beggars belief that someone is defending internment and how they were treated

.jacksparrow. · 08-10-2013 09:25AM

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

I know a number of men who were interned and tortured, one of whom had only slight connections to the civil rights movement and none to the republican movement - he was just staying in a friends house - it actually beggars belief that someone is defending internment and how they were treated

Just shows the mindset of some people, in their eyes this is acceptable in this day and age.

Then they question why people had no choice but to fight back.

Fratton Fred · 08-10-2013 09:50AM

Tramps Like Us wrote: »

I know a number of men who were interned and tortured, one of whom had only slight connections to the civil rights movement and none to the republican movement - he was just staying in a friends house - it actually beggars belief that someone is defending internment and how they were treated

No more unbelievable than people defending any other outrage during the troubles to be honest.

Internment without trial, torture, execution without trial, mistaken identity. All indefensible, yet people will bend over backwards to point out that their side doing it was ok, but an outrage when the other side did.

FTA69 · 08-10-2013 10:45AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

First off don't use the word victims. Secondly imagine actually locking up someone who might turn out to be innocent.

So what would you call an innocent civilian who is in bed at 4am only to have his door kicked in by soldiers, his house trashed, has the sh*t kicked out of him and is then thrown into a camp for three odd years without trial and subjected to banned interrogation/torture techniques? Victim is a perfectly adequate term. It's the only adequate term really.

Back to the topic at hand locking up a person suspected of terrorism is hardly a cruel or usual punishment. Maybe the person isn't a terrorist but maybe they are and if so it's vitally important that they're taken off the streets asap. Ok innocent people may be arrested but they always are in any investigation.

Grand job. Weren't you going about being on the side of democracy earlier on? Laughable.

Did you even read your own link? The article states explicitly that the five techniques did not amount to torture.

The British, after the findings of the court admitted they were wrong and ceased carrying out the methods. What's the problem?

Something tells me if you were beaten, threatened with attack dogs, subjected to mock execution, deprived of food and sleep, made to hold stress positions and deprived of all sleep you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it. Also if you think that British torture ended in 1975 you're codding yourself. How do you think they extracted all of those "verbal confessions" in Castlereagh during the 1980s?

You shouldn't blame the entire army for one bad unit. Remember the British were there as peacekeepers. The republicans saw them as a foreign army and were hostile to them. Tensions flared and isolated incidents like this were inevitable.

First of all the Brits were deployed "in aid of the civil power" i.e. to prop up Stormont. That was the official phrase used. Secondly do you honestly think the Paras were the only soldiers guilty of that sort of thing in Ireland? Please stop posting. Your argument has no substance and is unraveling rapidly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aidan_McAnespie
http://www.u.tv/news/Fresh-doubts-over-rubber-bullet-death/8a5156b4-e86c-4c4b-ace2-6960ff17ed03

I hope to God your grimy history and hate filled fractious little country never despoils the Republic.

Which country is that? Cork?

SoulandForm · 08-10-2013 12:24PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Back to the topic at hand locking up a person suspected of terrorism is hardly a cruel or usual punishment. Maybe the person isn't a terrorist but maybe they are and if so it's vitally important that they're taken off the streets asap. Ok innocent people may be arrested but they always are in any investigation.

You shouldn't blame the entire army for one bad unit. Remember the British were there as peacekeepers. The republicans saw them as a foreign army and were hostile to them. Tensions flared and isolated incidents like this were inevitable.

I don't have a black white view of anything I have very little love for Northern Ireland at all and I hope to God your grimy history and hate filled fractious little country never despoils the Republic.

First off from a purely political point of view internment was wrong because it massively strengthened support for the Provisional IRA and fed rather than decreased violence- it completely failed in its stated objective. Of course it was totally immoral as well and could be used easily to justify people picking gun but anyways- if the state starts behaving towards your community like that how are you are going to react? Than there is the fact that internment was almost exclusively aimed at Republicans while Loyalists were out there slaughtering people based purely on their religious background. Second off; even British Tories will tell you that the Parachute regiment should NEVER have been used to used in the Northern Ireland, sending them in was either particularly stupid or particularly evil whatever way you want to look at it. Third off; you accuse me of being a psycho nationalist and than come out with that? Three of our counties are already besmirching your precious "Republic" anyway.

Fratton Fred · 08-10-2013 01:31PM

SoulandForm wrote: »

First off from a purely political point of view internment was wrong because it massively strengthened support for the Provisional IRA and fed rather than decreased violence- it completely failed in its stated objective. Of course it was totally immoral as well and could be used easily to justify people picking gun but anyways- if the state starts behaving towards your community like that how are you are going to react? Than there is the fact that internment was almost exclusively aimed at Republicans while Loyalists were out there slaughtering people based purely on their religious background. Second off; even British Tories will tell you that the Parachute regiment should NEVER have been used to used in the Northern Ireland, sending them in was either particularly stupid or particularly evil whatever way you want to look at it. Third off; you accuse me of being a psycho nationalist and than come out with that? Three of our counties are already besmirching your precious "Republic" anyway.

At the height of the cold war, sending a regiment whose job was to jump out of an airplane and fight toe to toe with the red army, into a housing estate was beyond stupid.

Nodin · 08-10-2013 04:51PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

At the height of the cold war, sending a regiment whose job was to jump out of an airplane and fight toe to toe with the red army, into a housing estate was beyond stupid.

.....yet they weren't the only regiment in there shooting men of 'fighting age'. While they may have been harder men than the rest, the overall attitude would have been the same. It was the same type of action used the world over.

SoulandForm · 08-10-2013 04:58PM

Nodin wrote: »

.....yet they weren't the only regiment in there shooting men of 'fighting age'. While they may have been harder men than the rest, the overall attitude would have been the same. It was the same type of action used the world over.

Im not going to defend the British Army as an organization- Im not a fan of armies full stop- but I think its beyond that some regiments did actually behave much worse than others. Similarly some in the RUC were working hand in glove with the Loyalist death squads while others actually did their best to put Loyalists behind bars- there also differences between PIRA units.

Tramps Like Us · 08-10-2013 05:05PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

At the height of the cold war, sending a regiment whose job was to jump out of an airplane and fight toe to toe with the red army, into a housing estate was beyond stupid.

Or deliberate.

Tramps Like Us · 08-10-2013 05:07PM

SoulandForm wrote: »

Im not going to defend the British Army as an organization- Im not a fan of armies full stop- but I think its beyond that some regiments did actually behave much worse than others. Similarly some in the RUC were working hand in glove with the Loyalist death squads while others actually did their best to put Loyalists behind bars- there also differences between PIRA units.

From talking to people the consensus seems to be that the Scottish were by far the worst and most vindictive. That doesnt mean the others were handing out daffodils, they all acted despicably just some were worse than others.

Fratton Fred · 08-10-2013 05:11PM

Nodin wrote: »

.....yet they weren't the only regiment in there shooting men of 'fighting age'. While they may have been harder men than the rest, the overall attitude would have been the same. It was the same type of action used the world over.

Hang on a sec, one of the IRA fan boys was lauding the fact the IRA killed only 724 civilians and claimed if they were blood thirsty savages, the figures would have been a lot higher.

The British army killed less than a third of the number of civilians than the IRA, but apparently they were going around killing any one of fighting age?

Good old republican hypocrisy strikes again.

Manassas61 · 08-10-2013 05:14PM

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

I find it funny the same people asking for proof of certain things, are the first to point to Adams been in the Ira without any proof.

Every major player in the PIRA said Gerry Adams was in the PIRA. Brendan Hughes for example said he WAS in the PIRA. This is from a person who lived it during that time.

He has no credibility left now anyway and most people aren't stupid, they know what his past was.

Is there a differance between the Real IRA and the Continuity IRA?

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