Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

bilston · 06-10-2013 07:43PM

I dont watch the Top 14 but I read somewhere that Toulon and Clermont rested players this weekend. Is this true?

If it is true I expect the PRL to release a statement criticising the Top 14 clubs for this.

Edit - Just read the teamsheets and it looks like what I read wasnt really accurate therefore leaving me looking a bit silly!

irishbucsfan · 06-10-2013 08:03PM

bilston wrote: »

I dont watch the Top 14 but I read somewhere that Toulon and Clermont rested players this weekend. Is this true?

If it is true I expect the PRL to release a statement criticising the Top 14 clubs for this.

Edit - Just read the teamsheets and it looks like what I read wasnt really accurate therefore leaving me looking a bit silly!

Even if they did (I think Clermont maybe rested a couple) the start of this season has still completely underlined the position of PRL/LNR. Irish provinces have been dribbling players back into their teams at their leisure because the real start of the season is, for example, that Munster/Leinster match the weekend before the H Cup starts, which is a real shame because Leinster have played Glasgow/Ospreys already and with full strength sides it'd be a great contest. Meanwhile, for example, George North started on September 7th and looks in top form for the first time ever at club level.

danthefan · 06-10-2013 08:19PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Even if they did (I think Clermont maybe rested a couple) the start of this season has still completely underlined the position of PRL/LNR. Irish provinces have been dribbling players back into their teams at their leisure That would be because just about every professionally Irish contracted player was on some sort of international duty this summer, including a decent Lions contingent because the real start of the season is, for example, that Munster/Leinster match the weekend before the H Cup starts, which is a real shame because Leinster have played Glasgow/Ospreys already and with full strength sides it'd be a great contest. Leinster v Ospreys was a cracking game Meanwhile, for example, George North started on September 7th and looks in top form for the first time ever at club level. So did Jamie Roberts, he broke down immediately, and is out for a few months including missing the AIs for Wales.

.

rrpc · 06-10-2013 08:20PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Even if they did (I think Clermont maybe rested a couple) the start of this season has still completely underlined the position of PRL/LNR. Irish provinces have been dribbling players back into their teams at their leisure because the real start of the season is, for example, that Munster/Leinster match the weekend before the H Cup starts, which is a real shame because Leinster have played Glasgow/Ospreys already and with full strength sides it'd be a great contest. Meanwhile, for example, George North started on September 7th and looks in top form for the first time ever at club level.

The IRFU hold the players back, not the provinces. You know this and still persist with this bullcrap.

And this will continue regardless of what competition there is in Europe or what meddling is done to the Rabo.

irishbucsfan · 06-10-2013 11:06PM

danthefan wrote: »

That would be because just about every professionally Irish contracted player was on some sort of international duty this summer, including a decent Lions contingent

So was Farrell, Cole, North, Sexton, Twelvetrees, Gray, Stevens, Youngs etc.

danthefan wrote: »

So did Jamie Roberts, he broke down immediately, and is out for a few months including missing the AIs for Wales.

So did Brian O'Driscoll. So did Manu Tuilagi, so did others I'm sure. Rugby players get injured sometimes when they play rugby matches.

I agree that Leinster/Ospreys was a good game. But I'm not questioning the quality of those games and in fact I enjoy seeing the young players myself. But you can't deny that these players have their conditioning semesterised in a way that is not possible for PRL/LNR teams. Whether or not their proposed changes would actually alter this is definitely up for discussion, I certainly think the IRFU will pick the national team over the provinces every time when it comes to that.

danthefan · 06-10-2013 11:13PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So was Farrell, Cole, North, Sexton, Twelvetrees, Gray, Stevens, Youngs etc.

And we'll see how they're all getting on later in the season.

So did Brian O'Driscoll. So did Manu Tuilagi, so did others I'm sure. Rugby players get injured sometimes when they play rugby matches.

I don't really see what your point on North is then, he's one player.

I agree that Leinster/Ospreys was a good game. But I'm not questioning the quality of those games and in fact I enjoy seeing the young players myself. But you can't deny that these players have their conditioning semesterised in a way that is not possible for PRL/LNR teams. Whether or not their proposed changes would actually alter this is definitely up for discussion, I certainly think the IRFU will pick the national team over the provinces every time when it comes to that.

Who's problem is that? It's theirs. They can organise their season however they like, run their players into the ground, whatever they want.

irishbucsfan · 06-10-2013 11:28PM

danthefan wrote: »

And we'll see how they're all getting on later in the season.

And we'll see how all the Irish players are getting on later in the season. Because Irish players like Luke Fitzgerald, Felix Jones, Paul O'Connell, Shane Horgan, Stephen Ferris, Eoin O'Malley, Declan Fitzpatrick, Jerry Flannery, Denis Leamy and so on have shown in recent years that anyone can get injured, no matter how much cotton wool you wrap them in. Depriving them of playing time when they're capable of it doesn't seem worth it to me (and I remember D'Arcy said something similar a few years ago).

danthefan wrote: »

I don't really see what your point on North is then, he's one player.

For years he barely played for Scarlets. He had more Wales caps than Scarlets caps for a good while. Scarlets fans were really deprived of seeing him at his best for them.

danthefan wrote: »

Who's problem is that? It's theirs. They can organise their season however they like, run their players into the ground, whatever they want.

Absolutely, they have the right so set up the season however they wish. They also have the right to enter whatever competitions they wish. And as I said, I don't think this is something that will change even when these changes are introduced, but for the Rabo's sake I wish it would change.

rrpc · 07-10-2013 01:20PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

And we'll see how all the Irish players are getting on later in the season. Because Irish players like Luke Fitzgerald, Felix Jones, Paul O'Connell, Shane Horgan, Stephen Ferris, Eoin O'Malley, Declan Fitzpatrick, Jerry Flannery, Denis Leamy and so on have shown in recent years that anyone can get injured, no matter how much cotton wool you wrap them in. Depriving them of playing time when they're capable of it doesn't seem worth it to me (and I remember D'Arcy said something similar a few years ago).

It's not just about minimising injury (and you can't say with any certainty that the system isn't preventing more injury), it's also about allowing recuperation time and prolonging careers. Guys like Jerry Flannery played a lot of games for Ireland and Munster and it may well have shortened their careers as a result.

For years he barely played for Scarlets. He had more Wales caps than Scarlets caps for a good while. Scarlets fans were really deprived of seeing him at his best for them.

He's also very young. He may well have been protected by the WRU which is not a bad thing in the circumstances.

molloyjh · 07-10-2013 01:43PM

Don't forget that the CEO of Northampton was giving out about how tired his players were going into the HEC final in 2011 and how it was unfair that the Irish lads weren't similarly tired. Personally I think the pinnacle of the rugby season shouldn't be adversely impacted by the physical condition of players where possible. If that means picking and choosing when they should be played ensuring greater fitness for the big play-off games, greater fitness for internationals and greater squad depth and development then I reckon it's more than worth the trade-off in the end. Should other leagues/clubs/whatever disagree then that's up to them, but I see it more as a positive than anything else.

Also, this whole thing about having to start strong isn't really true, in the AP at least. Didn't Leicester have a woeful start to their domestic season 2 years ago only to come back strong and make the AP final?

its_phil · 07-10-2013 05:54PM

Q: What's the difference between Saracens and the Irish provinces changing their teams ahead of Heineken Cup games?

A: When Saracens do it's regarded as "rotation", when the Irish teams change their team it's called "resting".

Saracens made 12 changes from their team against Harlequins for the game the following week against Wasps.

I'd like to see the English papers give out about that.

who_me · 07-10-2013 06:09PM

Anyone else see this: https://twitter.com/EdinburghRugby/status/387261537502494720/photo/1

"80,000-seater San Siro Stadium in Milan to host 2015 Heineken Cup final!" Wut?? Is there going to be a 2015 HEC, never mind a 2015 final?

dtpc191991 · 07-10-2013 06:54PM

who_me wrote: »

Anyone else see this: https://twitter.com/EdinburghRugby/status/387261537502494720/photo/1

"80,000-seater San Siro Stadium in Milan to host 2015 Heineken Cup final!" Wut?? Is there going to be a 2015 HEC, never mind a 2015 final?

These sorts of things are planned well in advance. From what I can remember this was originally announced in 2012 before anyone really believed that things would go as far as they have in the last month or two.

Cookiemunster · 07-10-2013 06:56PM

who_me wrote: »

Anyone else see this: https://twitter.com/EdinburghRugby/status/387261537502494720/photo/1

"80,000-seater San Siro Stadium in Milan to host 2015 Heineken Cup final!" Wut?? Is there going to be a 2015 HEC, never mind a 2015 final?

Full story here
The Board of ERC has confirmed the iconic 80,000-capacity stadium as the venue for the 2015 final of the world's most competitive club rugby tournament provided agreement on a new European club rugby Accord for the 2014/15 season and beyond can be reached.

who_me · 07-10-2013 06:58PM

dtpc191991 wrote: »

These sorts of things are planned well in advance. From what I can remember this was originally announced in 2012 before anyone really believed that things would go as far as they have in the last month or two.

I didn't realise it had been announced that long ago; it's just highlighted on the ERC site now.

Would be a great experience to watch it there. If there is a "it" to be watched.

dtpc191991 · 07-10-2013 07:03PM

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Full story here
The Board of ERC has confirmed the iconic 80,000-capacity stadium as the venue for the 2015 final of the world's most competitive club rugby tournament provided agreement on a new European club rugby Accord for the 2014/15 season and beyond can be reached.

The fact that this article is quoted as saying that all SIX unions are against the RCC is massive. If true this is the first official statement we have regarding the RFU's position.

dtpc191991 · 07-10-2013 07:04PM

who_me wrote: »

I didn't realise it had been announced that long ago; it's just highlighted on the ERC site now.

Would be a great experience to watch it there. If there is a "it" to be watched.

I think I read it one of the English papers just not sure which one.

It would be great for Italian Rugby too.

Zzippy · 07-10-2013 08:10PM

This thread has gone almost 24 hours without a post from IBF! :eek:

I'm getting worried... has anyone heard from IBF today?? Anyone???

I think it's time to notify the authorities. Anyone got a number for the RFU?

who_me · 07-10-2013 08:39PM

Zzippy wrote: »

This thread has gone almost 24 hours without a post from IBF! :eek:

I'm getting worried... has anyone heard from IBF today?? Anyone???

I think it's time to notify the authorities. Anyone got a number for the RFU?

If he's refusing to get back to us, our only option is to split and do our own thing. By refusing to negotiate, he's backed us into a corner and our only avenue is a complete split.

He's welcome to join us, if he likes. Strictly on our terms though.

irishbucsfan · 07-10-2013 11:52PM

Sorry lads, got a bit of a promotion so I'm stuck in meetings trying to organise a department and I've lost sight of my priorities!

Don't worry I'll be back. In the meantime I will permit you to do your best IBF impressions as a placeholder.

Howard Juneau · 07-10-2013 11:57PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Sorry lads, got a bit of a promotion so I'm stuck in meetings trying to organise a department and I've lost sight of my priorities!

Don't worry I'll be back. In the meantime I will permit you to do your best IBF impressions as a placeholder.

Mark McAfferty's right hand man now?

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience · 08-10-2013 12:03AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Sorry lads, got a bit of a promotion so I'm stuck in meetings trying to organise a department and I've lost sight of my priorities!

Don't worry I'll be back. In the meantime I will permit you to do your best IBF impressions as a placeholder.

congrats!

themont85 · 08-10-2013 01:57AM

molloyjh wrote: »

Don't forget that the CEO of Northampton was giving out about how tired his players were going into the HEC final in 2011 and how it was unfair that the Irish lads weren't similarly tired. Personally I think the pinnacle of the rugby season shouldn't be adversely impacted by the physical condition of players where possible. If that means picking and choosing when they should be played ensuring greater fitness for the big play-off games, greater fitness for internationals and greater squad depth and development then I reckon it's more than worth the trade-off in the end. Should other leagues/clubs/whatever disagree then that's up to them, but I see it more as a positive than anything else.

Also, this whole thing about having to start strong isn't really true, in the AP at least. Didn't Leicester have a woeful start to their domestic season 2 years ago only to come back strong and make the AP final?

Someone did a break down of the team sheets that day afterwards and he was pretty much talking crap.

themont85 · 08-10-2013 02:07AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Does BT Infinity exist in ROI?

It's so easy to see where the difference in the markets is.

So what? They sell their channels in Ireland. Like Sky they operate here (and through BT Ireland as well).

Sure they are using sport as a way to hold off Sky broadband in the UK, but they still are selling a sports channel. They still sell it through Virgin and they still sell it through Sky in the UK, it is also a standalone business. The content providers are still the same. In 20 years of Sky we have yet to see a break in the UK and Ireland. RTÉ content is blurred out in the UK at times but I have yet to see any of the same from that way over to here. We are the same market, with the same number of channels. If you want to know why Setanta Ireland never became anything more than a nice basic channel on UPC its because despite all of their "major" Irish accusations, they mostly were a waste which could be seen elsewhere. I could watch F1 on ITV if I had Setanta. I could watch the FA Cup. Many Celtic League games. All the Champions League games. We are too intertwined.

We are a far way from Italy and France.

keps · 08-10-2013 02:15AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Sorry lads, got a bit of a promotion....

Beware a bit of a relegation:p

irishbucsfan · 08-10-2013 11:15AM

themont85 wrote: »

So what? They sell their channels in Ireland. Like Sky they operate here (and through BT Ireland as well).

Sure they are using sport as a way to hold off Sky broadband in the UK, but they still are selling a sports channel. They still sell it through Virgin and they still sell it through Sky in the UK, it is also a standalone business. The content providers are still the same. In 20 years of Sky we have yet to see a break in the UK and Ireland. RTÉ content is blurred out in the UK at times but I have yet to see any of the same from that way over to here. We are the same market, with the same number of channels. If you want to know why Setanta Ireland never became anything more than a nice basic channel on UPC its because despite all of their "major" Irish accusations, they mostly were a waste which could be seen elsewhere. I could watch F1 on ITV if I had Setanta. I could watch the FA Cup. Many Celtic League games. All the Champions League games. We are too intertwined.

We are a far way from Italy and France.

If they're using their sports rights to sell infinity then I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to work out the rights for a country where infinity doesn't exist may not be worth as much to them as one where it does.

The Rooster · 08-10-2013 01:03PM

dtpc191991 wrote: »

The fact that this article is quoted as saying that all SIX unions are against the RCC is massive. If true this is the first official statement we have regarding the RFU's position.

It would be massive if the RFU actually did say something.
But the fact is that, so far, they've said nothing.

rrpc · 08-10-2013 02:52PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If they're using their sports rights to sell infinity then I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to work out the rights for a country where infinity doesn't exist may not be worth as much to them as one where it does.

Which, if the RCC goes ahead would be very bad news for the Irish provinces.

bilston · 08-10-2013 04:19PM

rrpc wrote: »

Which, if the RCC goes ahead would be very bad news for the Irish provinces.

Ulster will be grand:D

rrpc · 08-10-2013 04:33PM

bilston wrote: »

Ulster will be grand:D

Not really since the metric for doling out money is supposed to be based on how many viewers you bring to the table.

Or that's how the argument has been coming from the PRL anyway.

channelsurfer2 · 09-10-2013 09:27AM

looks like my prediction is gathering momentum re Sky and BT sharing any new deal(if there is one).

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/heineken-cup-preview-perhaps-timing-is-right-for-clermont-s-final-fling-1.1554404

Yet whether the issues of financial distribution, qualification and the overseeing body can be resolved, there remains one enormous stumbling block, namely the conflicting television deals which the ERC and Premiership Rugby have signed with Sky and BT, rivals in a huge broadband war in mainland Britain.

Hammer out
Rumours have gathered momentum that attempts are being made to hammer out a deal involving both Sky and BT, but Sky must feel hugely embittered by Premiership Rugby after years of ploughing millions into the English club game and selling its product, never mind the prospect of sleeping with the enemy.

Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

Comments