Lewd remarks - banter or not?

April O Neill · 06-10-2013 07:13PM

I have to say, I do think the article is gender-focused, and so it should be, she doesn't seem to be hiding the fact that she is commenting on the avalanche of crude comments women will subjected to throughout their lives.

I was 11 when I received my first lewd comment from a adult male.

Yup, 11.

GalwayGuy2 · 06-10-2013 07:15PM

What about the first three? Naming names doesn't cut it.

Hmmm, I thought we were talking about selling things with sex appeal/objectification? I may have slipped up with George Clooney, but Taylor Lautner and Brad Pitt have definitely made a career out of their sex appeal.

And, yeah, there are a gazillion others. I can't be bothered listing any more out.

Femme_Fatale · 06-10-2013 07:24PM

Depends on context. Most of the time it doesn't bother me tbh and I can even take it as a compliment. For me, talk is just talk - generally speaking; physical contact is when the line is crossed (and even then, I wouldn't mind a guy slapping me on the arse

but that's the limit).
But if others feel uncomfortable with it, they feel uncomfortable with it - nothing's going to change that.

josip wrote: »

If I was more cynical, I'd see this as a "I got some attention today. Let's write an article about it and get some more attention."
But I'm not more cynical.

Jesus, that's some leap.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

so we're not even allowed look at or talk about women now?

Who said that? Oh yeh nobody did.

The Big Smoke wrote: »

Muller ads, he drives she dies, galaxy ads, malteaser bars... I could go on but it's off topic.

Yeh there are loads of them - why is it only the Diet Coke one that gets brought up most of the time though? It has become the generic response, and that ad is from the mid 90s (I know there's a new one, but before that, for years, the first one was the default, go-to reference).

April O Neill · 06-10-2013 07:25PM

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

I may have slipped up with George Clooney, but Taylor Lautner and Brad Pitt have definitely made a career out of their sex appeal.

We were talking about sexual objectification in advertising.

I don't know a thing about Taylor Lautner, but I have to say you're being quite unfair to Brad Pitt. He is a handsome guy... but has made loads of great film that have nothing to do with his sex appeal. He's a good actor. I'd have to disagree that he relies on his sex appeal. He just happens to have sex appeal. That doesn't meant he has relied on it.

The Big Smoke · 06-10-2013 07:26PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Yeh there are loads of them - why is it only the Diet Coke one that gets brought up most of the time though? It has become the generic response, and that ad is from the mid 90s (I know there's a new one, but before that, for years, the first one was the default, go-to reference).

Well there's a new wan, with an even more sweaty hunk on it. It's totes mazeballs and stuff.

Legs.Eleven · 06-10-2013 07:31PM

The Big Smoke wrote: »

From the article.

Not to mention the words 'women' and 'girl' peppered throughout the article.

No mention of it only happening to women though. I think she's specifically referring to lewd comments/cat calls/wolf whistles on the street which women are subjected to more than men. This story is not about advertisements.

Edit: That lewd comment I was sure I'd get going to and from the supermarket? Happened twice.

The Big Smoke · 06-10-2013 07:40PM

Legs.Eleven wrote: »

This story is not about advertisements.

Yes I know, but it is about objectification.

Legs.Eleven · 06-10-2013 07:41PM

The Big Smoke wrote: »

Yes I know, but it is about objectification.

Specifically lewd remarks on the street. No mention at all of advertising.

hatrickpatrick · 06-10-2013 07:45PM

Posting this thread on AH was a fantastic stroke of genius, OP. This is exactly the kind of place you'll get a serious, tactful and well thought out set of arguments.

*sticks on some microwave popcorn and reclines*

GalwayGuy2 · 06-10-2013 07:48PM

I don't know a thing about Taylor Lautner, but I have to say you're being quite unfair to Brad Pitt. He is a handsome guy... but has made loads of great film that have nothing to do with his sex appeal. He's a good actor. I'd have to disagree that he relies on his sex appeal. He just happens to have sex appeal. That doesn't meant he has relied on it.

No, he is a good actor. If anything he has been stymied by his good looks. I was more talking about how the only time I've ever heard any of his movies recommended on the radio was as 'Brad Pitt in a skirt', or someone saying they were only going in to see the movie because he was in it.

I'm going to add that I have absolutely no problem with someone making the above comment. Just commenting that a lot of male actors are mentioned for their sex-appeal, and so are their female counterparts.

Rho b · 06-10-2013 07:49PM

The Big Smoke wrote: »

Yes I know, but it is about objectification.

Is it?
Male makes comment about female - I would have though that its pretty normal for men to comment about a women and visa versa, and for those that think they are holier than thou, maybe think again while you were in the pub/club/bus etc with your mates commenting about some guy/girl. I think we all have over the years. Making that comment audible to the women in this case seems to be the problem.
I always wonder why some women feel that they are victims in such incidences (verbal comments/whistling). I am obliviously missing something.

Galwayguy35 · 06-10-2013 07:51PM

If you don't like what someone says to you, go over to them and tell them to go fook themselves, that what I would do, not go writing a big article about it.

If you have a problem with someone, sort it out in real life, whinging about it on the internet won't change anything.

06-10-2013 07:52PM

You know, there's a good reason I rarely get involved in these kind of threads.

If we actually stopped making this stuff about gender, and started making it about people. If we stopped fighting against each other, and started working together, we would get a lot further in these discussions.

It doesn't need to be men v women. It shouldn't be men v women.
It should be decent people v ****.

And for that reason. I'm out!

BBDBB · 06-10-2013 08:00PM

Its astonishing the money that's spent on creating, filming and showing targeted adverts and its seemingly wasted, as no woman ever appears to have seen them.

Here's 3 examples from the past year(ish), I don't tend to watch much TV and these adverts aren't targeted at me. (It would be interesting to see when these ads were scheduled to run, ie were they in the middle of predominantly male tv shows or those shows more typically watched by females. Im guessing the latter if the advertisers have any sense of what they are doing. I think it shows that its NOT just the diet coke example. These ones are fairly blatant. The first one actually acknowledges what its doing.

Aero - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSWPJ1KxsXI

Malteasers - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hS9PgaCB9m8

Wink Bingo - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgUopd5_Ds4

To clarify, Im not saying that these justify the harassment the blogger experienced or any examples offered here (11?? jeez that's sickening)
but its disingenuous to say that its just the diet coke ad that's the only example. Quite clearly its not.

On the adverts themselves I don't think it shows either sex in a particularly good light, the same would be true if the roles were reversed.

Hitchens · 06-10-2013 08:01PM

Deleted User wrote: »

If we actually stopped making this stuff about gender, and started making it about people. If we stopped fighting against each other, and started working together, we would get a lot further in these discussions.

It doesn't need to be men v women. It shouldn't be men v women.
It should be decent people v ****.

hatrickpatrick · 06-10-2013 08:26PM

Deleted User wrote: »

You know, there's a good reason I rarely get involved in these kind of threads.

If we actually stopped making this stuff about gender, and started making it about people. If we stopped fighting against each other, and started working together, we would get a lot further in these discussions.

It doesn't need to be men v women. It shouldn't be men v women.
It should be decent people v ****.

And for that reason. I'm out!

I completely agree with this - which is why I really wish the campaigners who write for the mainstream media would stop beginning these debates by making it a gender issue before it even starts :rolleyes:

Czarcasm · 06-10-2013 08:45PM

Hitchens wrote: »

Spotted this article and wondered have we become totally desensitised to peoples feelings.

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/making-lewd-remarks-to-women-on-the-street-is-not-banter-1116509-Oct2013/

Yes, but you chose a terrible article to make your point.

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Jesus, that's some leap.

I dunno, sounds like a Samantha Brick style self promotion effort to me tbh -

Mia Doering is an English language teacher and trainee psychotherapist. She is currently researching a non-fiction book on sexual violence against women

Fr_Dougal · 06-10-2013 09:13PM

They should be allowed marry whoever they want to.

Zen65 · 06-10-2013 09:16PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Now granted, this shouldn't be a gender issue - some people are just **** - male or female.

That sums it all up really. I think the article could have been more direct if the author had understood this, instead of making a case about the breakdown of the percentage male vs female '****'. Should all men be castigated because we share the same genitals as Hitler, Mussolini, Fritzel, & Brian Cowen?

Depp · 06-10-2013 09:48PM

yer one would want to get over herself

06-10-2013 10:10PM

Zen65 wrote: »

Should all men be castigated because we share the same genitals as Hitler, Mussolini, Fritzel, & Brian Cowen?

She did claim that all women experience it, but she didn't say that all men are perpetrators. She made several attempts to point out she thought they were a particular sort of asshat (although she herself seemed to have a questionable attitude towards people in hi-vis, but that's off topic).

Jimoslimos · 06-10-2013 10:19PM

Can we stop the Diet Coke objectivisation nonsense please? There isn't even the same level of intimidation

Czarcasm wrote: »

I dunno, sounds like a Samantha Brick style self promotion effort to me tbh -

Agree. I have no doubt that the scenario she describes happens on a regular basis to many women. However it does sound a tad contrived, perhaps to fit a chapter around on her upcoming book. Methinks she got lazy with the research. Anyway it's poor form to publish and be expected to be taken seriously if you're using personal ancedotes.

Johro · 06-10-2013 10:33PM

true-or-false wrote: »

While she definitely seems highly strung, she's 100% right.

She's not highly strung, just angry.
And 100% right.

Czarcasm · 06-10-2013 10:39PM

true-or-false wrote: »

She did claim that all women experience it, but she didn't say that all men are perpetrators. She made several attempts to point out she thought they were a particular sort of asshat (although she herself seemed to have a questionable attitude towards people in hi-vis, but that's off topic).

It's actually very much on-topic tbh, as she went into great length to describe them as neanderthals and one could almost be forgiven for their sarcasm detector going on the fritz when she described the men as "professionals".

It was the typical "Sub-intellectual manual labourer types demeaning me, how dare they? Who do they think they are?" type stuff. In other words she was passing judgement on the men as much as they were passing judgement on her, well, one of them anyway, apparently.

I'm not denying that absolutely it happens every day, but as Jimslimos says - this is too contrived and her floury, mealy mouthed narrative would almost have you believe it happened in slow motion as opposed to what was merely some ignorant dumbass making a stupid remark.

As a journalist and a grown woman, I'm sure she would've heard worse around the water cooler from both her male and female colleagues in her profession.

languagenerd · 06-10-2013 10:40PM

Lewd remarks from a stranger on the street are not banter. Lewd remarks from a friend who you've known for years are probably a joke. Like with everything else, context is key!

I've got my fair share of lewd comments on the street - most of the time I just shake my head or give them a scathing look. Sometimes they come across as really creepy, sometimes it's just someone trying to look cool in front of their friends and the worst thing you could do is react. Ireland is nowhere near as bad as Spain though - in Spain, any woman out walking by herself at any time of day will get lewd comments or wolf whistles from groups of men in the street. I always wonder what those men think will happen... that the girl will stop and say "oh, well in that case, let's go! Come back to mine with me right now!"??????

:pac:

Elmer Blooker · 06-10-2013 10:52PM

Deleted User wrote: »

It's no consolation I know, but I honestly believe the majority of guys would never dream of saying something so arsey

I agree, sure don't they all have lovely bottoms?

Femme_Fatale · 06-10-2013 10:56PM

languagenerd wrote: »

Lewd remarks from a stranger on the street are not banter.

Depends on the stranger IMO - you can get different vibes off people. And before someone comes along and says it's fine for women once the man's hot, no, it's more to do with whether the guy seems like a bit of craic or a creep. Also, if it's on a busy street and the fella shouts something out, it's very different to being down a quiet street on your own, and the fella on his own - hot or not, that is scary.

Hitchens · 06-10-2013 10:59PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

if it's on a busy street and the fella shouts something out, it's very different to being down a quiet street on your own, and the fella on his own - hot or not, that is scary.

......or even if hi-vis guy had been on his own when he said it, now that would be scary I'd reckon

YellowFeather · 06-10-2013 11:05PM

As the grossness of what he’d said and how he’d said it slowly hit me, I felt painfully self-aware. Embarrassed. Shy. Exposed. Uncomfortable. I didn’t want to be on show but by virtue of being a woman in this gang’s sleazy presence I was forced to be on show. I went from pondering if my lunch would hold up okay in my lunchbox to feeling like someone had just pointed out that the back of my skirt was tucked into my knickers.

On the train I felt as though the eyes of all the other passengers were on me. I was wearing a new dress I really liked. I wanted to be in something less nice; something big and thick that would render me into a shapeless blob. The last thing I wanted was to be seen as ‘sexy’. I realised that my hands were shaking. I gave out to myself for wearing my stupid new dress. Then I gave out to myself for having that fleeting thought. Five minutes before, I’d been happy with how I looked. The thought of him and his cronies made me feel deeply uncomfortable. I felt ashamed, weirdly, and a little dirty. It’s a sad fact that when an offence is sexual in nature we take on the shame that is missing from the perpetrator and aim it at ourselves.

Jesus, Mary and Joseph, this woman does not speak for the majority of us! WT Samantha Brick F is she on about?

Retrovertigo · 06-10-2013 11:07PM

I was too busy spluttering with anger

Can't help but visualise her standing at the end of the steps making engine sounds with her mouth as she mounts her heavy bike, in high heels.

Lewd remarks - banter or not?

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