Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

Interesting interview with Lux


http://www.lequipe.fr/Rugby/Actualites/-une-h-cup-ou-rien-du-tout/406134


Includes

The position of the FFR has always been clear: Pierre Camou (President of the FFR) said it would not give its approval. Regarding the other federations, I was in Wales Monday, Tuesday in Ireland, Scotland on Wednesday and I will be in Italy Monday ... Again, these associations do not allow their clubs and provinces to participate in an alternative competition.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

JP Lux and Peter Wheeler were looking to be elected. The French clubs were going to vote for Wheeler but at the last minute the FFR commandeered their vote and Lux won. Hence an independent chairman who is not so independent and the French clubs looking for a way to stop it happening again.

Why is he not so independant?

Winters wrote: »

Why is he not so independant?

I think it's fairly clear, it's just politics really. But it's not about Lux it's about the fact the FFR hamstrung the LNR and damaged that relationship.

Even if a consensus is reached be it with the ERC or without I do fear that too much damage has been done to rugby in the Northern Hemisphere and the professional relationships between the administrators that calm will never prevail again while the same cultures and personalities are involved. Sad time for a rugby fan.

My impression is that it is primarily about money for the English clubs but that the French are focused on how it's organised so that it fits better with the Top 14. I don't think that the French are that fussed about having some weaker teams in the competition. Historically they have been far more supportive and open to developing nations than the (quite insular) home nations. They regularly granted internationals to Italy and Romania when we ignored them. In modern times they have had players in the Top 14 from all over Europe and not just from up and coming places like Georgia but Belgium, the Czech republic, Slovenia and others.

I fear the consequences for rugby if the English clubs get their way, not so much with the French.

bilston wrote: »

To be fair just because it's about money for the English doesn't make them bad.

They do need more money to pay their players and to stop their talent from moving to France. There is a lot of focus on how the Welsh players are leaving en masse to go to France and there are fears that Sexton's move could signal a similar situation in Ireland developing, but a lot of English players have moved to France as well, the difference is they have a stated policy of not picking players who ply their trade outside of England. But that may not be feasible in the future if the English clubs can't compete with the French and more English talent move across the Channel.

I don't agree with the PRL's approach at all but I suppose if we try to understand why they want more money then maybe there won't just be a view that they are being greedy. Actually I think that rather than trying to keep a meritocracy in the Premiership they need to accept that there will be big clubs and small clubs, the system at the moment seems to hold back the likes of Leicester, Harlequins, Northampton and Saracens when it comes to Europe. I think that should be their focus more than taking on the ERC.

The English clubs want relatively more money to go to the French and English unions and less to go to all of the other participants (it's worth noting here that the overall numbers while certainly not irrelevant are of limited importance given that sport is a zero sum game). The distortion in the market for players is largely lead by French clubs having way more money than anyone else with a ripple from the Irish tax system influencing the volume of indigenous players that move abroad. The proposals put forward by the English will have little or no impact on the French clubs domination of the market and potentially a bigger impact on the Irish provinces who may find it harder to hold on to their players. In the short term the most likely outcome of their plan is that French clubs will be better able to recruit Irish players which will just strengthen the French hand. There may also be a small exodus of mid-level Irish players to England. It will have almost no impact on the English clubs efforts to keep their own players. Players will benefit though through higher wages. In the longer term it's likely to weaken the hand of the Irish teams to the point where they can no longer be competitive in Europe similar to where Wales are now. I suspect that the English clubs think that this would be a good outcome but I think that the diversity added by teams from Ireland and to a lesser extent Wales and Scotland have been critical to the success of the European cup and it will be a lesser competition if they get their way.

Lest I be misunderstood I'm not that happy with the ERC's performance. I think that the ERC should be looking at ways to increase the diversity of the competition. It's already got quite 'samey' and a bit predictable and they're clearly a conservative organisation who could do quite a bit more to improve the competition. Changes and improvements have been few and far between in the structure of the competition. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they hadn't even got any serious plans for reviewing the competition annually with a view to identifying changes and improvements that can be made (although I'm open to correction). I don't think that the solution is for the PRL and LNR to take over though - their ideas are self interested and short sighted - as you would expect of any club. The unions are much better positioned to take decision in the best interests of the game as a whole. That they haven't done a great job with the European cup is no reason to let the lunatic run the asylum.

What's going to happen (which is what I'm most interested in) is difficult to predict. You have on the one side the ERC controlled by the unions who expect to make some small compromises but continue on with the European cup more or less as it is and on the other the English clubs (and it's very much the English clubs who are leading this) looking to form a new competition which they hope to control with the help of the French clubs. Everybody is agreed that there should be a European competition and I don't think that anyone seriously thinks that there should be two separate ones that are purportedly at the same level. The ERC can't force the English or the French clubs to play. They could possibly via the IRB prevent the English and French clubs from playing their own competition. The English clubs believe that the IRB would be unable to do this. Their belief is that most of the value of the television rights derive from the English and French populations therefore they will be able to get far more money for an Anglo-French competition than the group controlled by the unions will and that eventually this financial muscle will force the others into submission or more optimistically that the unions will recognise this and succumb to the inevitable.

The first battle is difficult to judge - I'd be astonished/gobsmacked/incredulous if both sides haven't sought out sophisticated legal opinion. I'd be equally surprised if the outcome of a legal battle was obvious. If the battle did come to pass and the English clubs were to win I think that you would be likely looking at the long term implosion of the game in the Northern Hempisphere with a peripheral sport having not much more impact than rugby league the result.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Under the scenario where ERC didn't sell their rights without their permission after being told in advance not to. Probably.

And after that, in a scenario where ERC weren't intent on forcing that contract on to them.

Isn't this exactly what the PRL did too? Except they did it by themselves and didn't even discuss it with anyone until the deal was complete?

Clearlier wrote: »

The English clubs want relatively more money to go to the French and English unions and less to go to all of the other participants (it's worth noting here that the overall numbers while certainly not irrelevant are of limited importance given that sport is a zero sum game). The distortion in the market for players is largely lead by French clubs having way more money than anyone else with a ripple from the Irish tax system influencing the volume of indigenous players that move abroad. The proposals put forward by the English will have little or no impact on the French clubs domination of the market and potentially a bigger impact on the Irish provinces who may find it harder to hold on to their players. In the short term the most likely outcome of their plan is that French clubs will be better able to recruit Irish players which will just strengthen the French hand. There may also be a small exodus of mid-level Irish players to England. It will have almost no impact on the English clubs efforts to keep their own players. Players will benefit though through higher wages. In the longer term it's likely to weaken the hand of the Irish teams to the point where they can no longer be competitive in Europe similar to where Wales are now. I suspect that the English clubs think that this would be a good outcome but I think that the diversity added by teams from Ireland and to a lesser extent Wales and Scotland have been critical to the success of the European cup and it will be a lesser competition if they get their way.

Lest I be misunderstood I'm not that happy with the ERC's performance. I think that the ERC should be looking at ways to increase the diversity of the competition. It's already got quite 'samey' and a bit predictable and they're clearly a conservative organisation who could do quite a bit more to improve the competition. Changes and improvements have been few and far between in the structure of the competition. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they hadn't even got any serious plans for reviewing the competition annually with a view to identifying changes and improvements that can be made (although I'm open to correction). I don't think that the solution is for the PRL and LNR to take over though - their ideas are self interested and short sighted - as you would expect of any club. The unions are much better positioned to take decision in the best interests of the game as a whole. That they haven't done a great job with the European cup is no reason to let the lunatic run the asylum.

What's going to happen (which is what I'm most interested in) is difficult to predict. You have on the one side the ERC controlled by the unions who expect to make some small compromises but continue on with the European cup more or less as it is and on the other the English clubs (and it's very much the English clubs who are leading this) looking to form a new competition which they hope to control with the help of the French clubs. Everybody is agreed that there should be a European competition and I don't think that anyone seriously thinks that there should be two separate ones that are purportedly at the same level. The ERC can't force the English or the French clubs to play. They could possibly via the IRB prevent the English and French clubs from playing their own competition. The English clubs believe that the IRB would be unable to do this. Their belief is that most of the value of the television rights derive from the English and French populations therefore they will be able to get far more money for an Anglo-French competition than the group controlled by the unions will and that eventually this financial muscle will force the others into submission or more optimistically that the unions will recognise this and succumb to the inevitable.

The first battle is difficult to judge - I'd be astonished/gobsmacked/incredulous if both sides haven't sought out sophisticated legal opinion. I'd be equally surprised if the outcome of a legal battle was obvious. If the battle did come to pass and the English clubs were to win I think that you would be likely looking at the long term implosion of the game in the Northern Hempisphere with a peripheral sport having not much more impact than rugby league the result.

You make the point that the sport is not a zero sum game. It's also not a closed system and the H Cup is not the only source of income. So the overall figures are very relevant.

Outside of that it's a good post. Strayed a little into the hysterical at the end with the "they'll create rugby league" but I assume you mean that as being a possibility if they had to take their Unions to court (they wouldn't have to take the IRB). No one wants that to happen, least of all the Unions in a world cup season.

rrpc wrote: »

Isn't that what Nigel Wray threatened? Or is the PRL just full of big mouths looking to shoot themselves off?

Well they wouldn't have to take them because they won't step in, because it's not in the regulations for them to overrule the Unions. However if he was asked about a situation where they did step in in that situation, then I'd imagine they would.

I still say there will be some compromise where BOTH BT and SKY show the "new format" European cup as the only solution. It cant end up with just BT or SKY showing it as that wont save face for either of the opposing views, despite what they say about contracts etc.

bilston wrote: »

Yes I agree, it can be improved and its been discussed for months on this thread, but I just cannot believe there are people who don't want it to continue.

That's a purely rugby perspective and not a financial one. In rugby terms its the best competition in the world. So unpredictable.

I agree with you, but at the same time I don't think anyone doesn't want it to continue. Again from a rugby perspective.

The proposed changes make have very little downside while vastly improving the Amlin and hopefully making it just as unpredictable (rather than 50-0 drubbings every week).

From a purely rugby perspective, I don't think it's going anywhere. There'll still be European competition. As one of the Guardian's dodgy sources said, it might even still be named the Heineken Cup.

channelsurfer2 wrote: »

I still say there will be some compromise where BOTH BT and SKY show the "new format" European cup as the only solution. It cant end up with just BT or SKY showing it as that wont save face for either of the opposing views, despite what they say about contracts etc.

I think it's likely as well. Purely because the Irish market is worth more to Sky than BT, while the UK market is worth more to BT than Sky. The days of central negotiating have to be over when splitting those rights makes them more valuable.

I'd say the eventual tournament will be broadcasted by Sky/BT/BeIn, because that's where the money is.