Not caring about the Africans dieing in Italy...

humbert · 04-10-2013 07:32PM

Gatling wrote: »

Why the Lee and not the Shannon or Liffey

Well why

Because shame belongs in Cork.

Red Nissan · 04-10-2013 07:35PM

Gatling wrote: »

Why the Lee and not the Shannon or Liffey

Well why

Listen I'll take ALL the SHAME but I'm not driving 60 miles up the road when I have a perfectly good river half a mile away.

Nodin · 04-10-2013 07:37PM

humbert wrote: »

But is that actually racism?

............you're asking me if discriminating on the grounds of skin colour is racism?

Femme_Fatale · 04-10-2013 07:42PM

Lad Of Banter wrote: »

Am actually not so bothered, if they were Asian, would be the same

But if they were100/200 caucaisians i would feel a lot more empathy, sympathy & sorrow.

Is this normal?

Maybe it's because you feel closer to, and therefore more empathy with, caucasians. As someone said, you can't choose how you feel. If you said "**** them, glad they're dead" on the basis of their skin colour, obviously that would be racist, but what you're saying is more ambiguous IMO.

Then again, it could be racist. I don't feel any differently about this tragedy than I would about any race of people being killed in similar circumstances.

My name is URL wrote: »

Can someone provide a bit of context for this thread? =/

Here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2442347/Lampedusa-boat-tragedy-Italy-declares-day-mourning-300-drowned-African-migrants.html

Can't understand why some thread-starters don't post a link in their opening post.

Gatling wrote: »

No mention of the Syrians ,Iraqis,Kurds ,Palestinian's
But yet metion africians the racism flag gets waved

That's a pretty straightforward one: because the thread is about Africans, not Syrians/Iraqis/Kurds/Palestinians.

Gatling · 04-10-2013 07:45PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Maybe it's because you feel closer to, and therefore more empathy with, caucasians. As someone said, you can't choose how you feel. If you said "**** them, glad they're dead" on the basis of their skin colour, obviously that would be racist, but what you're saying is more ambiguous IMO.

Then again, it could be racist. I don't feel any differently about this tragedy than I would about any race of people being killed in similar circumstances.

Here: http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article3885507.ece

Can't understand why some thread-starters don't post a link in their opening post.

That's a pretty straightforward one: because the thread is about Africans, not Syrians/Iraqis/Kurds/Palestinians.

But nearly all the above national's have different color skins some light some dark and all have seriously real world problems

bizmark · 04-10-2013 07:45PM

humbert wrote: »

Because shame belongs in Cork.

hey now dont be a langer

Femme_Fatale · 04-10-2013 07:46PM

Red Nissan wrote: »

I could tell you how my wife and I were laughing when we were listening to how the asylum seekers set fire to the boat and then all ran to one side capsizing it

Deliberately set fire to it for the laugh like?

Surprised the OP is getting all the grief - the above is way more c*nty.

Femme_Fatale · 04-10-2013 07:47PM

Gatling wrote: »

But nearly all the above national's have different color skins some light some dark and all have seriously real world problems

Again, this thread is specifically about Africans - hence people responding specifically in relation to Africans.
Hardly that difficult to grasp, surely?

humbert · 04-10-2013 07:50PM

Nodin wrote: »

............you're asking me if discriminating on the grounds of skin colour is racism?

Well,no, I'm asking if a lack of empathy is discrimination/racism. Definitions seem to vary a bit but racism generally implies making assumptions or judgements about a person or people due to their race. Is not feeling the same amount of empathy discrimination? I know that technically it is in that to discriminate is simply to make a distinction but in the context of racism it is generally used to imply a person or people are being regarded negatively due to their race.

humbert · 04-10-2013 07:51PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Again, this thread is specifically about Africans - hence people responding specifically in relation to Africans.
Hardly that difficult to grasp, surely?

Emm, he also mentioned Asians?

Gatling · 04-10-2013 07:51PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Deliberately set fire to it for the laugh?

Yes they deliberately set a fire on the boat to attract the attention of the coast guard ,
But in an almost homer Simpson moment the fire spread and the passengers ran to one side of the boat

Red Nissan · 04-10-2013 07:55PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Deliberately set fire to it for the laugh like?

The radio said, a group of African asylum seekers were trying to illegally enter Italy off some island [named but I forget] and they [the asylum seekers] set a fire to signal the smugglers on shore.

That fire then took hold of the boat and everyone ran to one side causing the boat to capsize and throwing three hundred of them into the water.

Cody Pomeray · 04-10-2013 07:57PM

I was just thinking about something similar earlier.

I've been zoning in and out of news channels and news websites on and off over the past day, and it wasn't till this lunch time that I actually heard, for the first time, how many people actually died.

Compare this to the Costa Concordia, when all those white folk died. I can tell you off the top of my head the approximate number of people who died - 30, which is less than a third of those killed in this latest boat, whose name I don't even know, and I would consider myself an avid news watcher.

So the OP might be guilty of saying it, but I think there is a definite feeling that this tragedy is less relevant to us. The next question is important.

Lad Of Banter wrote: »

Is this normal?

Am actually not so bothered

Yes, that might be normal (i.e. normative, I mean)

As a species we seem to instinctively relate to those other species with whom we identify. It's tribalism; we are a tribal species. We didn't get this far by identifying with strangers and not with our own kin. The most efficient breeders, throughout human history, have been those who have managed to get the balance right between willingness to share projects with the outsider whilst maintaining a distrust of the outsider. Hence a fragmented but usually cordial world geography.

I think it's normal to identify less with those of other cultures than with those who are proximal to you on the cultural - and racial - spectrum.

Certainly we should get over that and shake ourselves down from our crude instincts, but of course its normal. On an unconscious level, I *undoubtedly* care less about these people than I would if they were Irish. However, because we are all intelligent human beings, we are able to expand on our animal instincts with our grey matter, and consciously make an effort to empathize and mourn this tragedy.

But it doesn't always come naturally. It didn't to me, anyway.

GT_TDI_150 · 04-10-2013 07:59PM

To be fair, ive more important things going on in my life like keeping food on the table for my kid and a roof over our heads to feint interest in who died where in and whether or not i should or shouldnt feel sorry for them based on their race/religion/gender ....

It doesnt matter that these 200+ people are white, black, ... It's a tragedy for their families but it hasnt changed my day/week one little bit ...

bnt · 04-10-2013 08:07PM

On one day less than a decade ago - December 26, 2004 - over 230,000 people died in 14 countries. Those people had little or no control over the circumstances that led to their deaths. So pardon me if I'm not prostrated by the deaths of people who chose to get on an unsafe, overloaded boat, to undertake an illegal migration to an overloaded continent.

I'm not anti-migration. Migration is normal. I'm a migrant to Ireland, and that wasn't my first migration (though it was the first that I freely chose to do). It's not a yes/no, black/white question: the numbers involved are the problem. Too many are migrating, to specific "soft targets" like Italy, France and the UK, in too short a period of time. Is anyone surprised that there's anti-migrant friction, as in e.g. Malmo or Saint-Denis? A city can sink under the weight of migrants, if overloaded, just as a boat can.

Femme_Fatale · 04-10-2013 08:08PM

humbert wrote: »

Emm, he also mentioned Asians?

And the story in question is about Africans, not non white groups in general. I'm one of the people saying the OP might actually not be racist btw, but what relevance does the "Africans have a monopoly on experiencing racism" claim have?

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo · 04-10-2013 08:12PM

humbert wrote: »

Emm, he also mentioned Asians?

It isn't the Chinese he's after it's the Greeks, oh wait, who are we after, the Mexicans, who invented gayness, I'm even more confused than I usually am.

Too Tough To Die · 04-10-2013 08:14PM

You're hardwired to care more about those you identify more closely with. It's really not your fault. You are however also a racist.

Cody Pomeray · 04-10-2013 08:15PM

bnt wrote: »

Too many are migrating, to specific "soft targets"

eh, lol.

Ya like all those citizens who were misfortunate enough to be grow up in corrupt, impoverished societies where they have no hope of a life shouldn't be targeting the "soft spots". They should set themselves a challenge, pick somewhere really hard to emigrate into.

jesus christ i know it's AH but how can someone type this sh1t and think "yeah that sounds like a smart thing to say"??

Wattle · 04-10-2013 08:16PM

bnt wrote: »

On one day less than a decade ago - December 26, 2004 - over 230,000 people died in 14 countries. Those people had little or no control over the circumstances that led to their deaths. So pardon me if I'm not prostrated by the deaths of people who chose to get on an unsafe, overloaded boat, to undertake an illegal migration to an overloaded continent.

I'm not anti-migration. Migration is normal. I'm a migrant to Ireland, and that wasn't my first migration (though it was the first that I freely chose to do). It's not a yes/no, black/white question: the numbers involved are the problem. Too many are migrating, to specific "soft targets" like Italy, France and the UK, in too short a period of time. Is anyone surprised that there's anti-migrant friction, as in e.g. Malmo or Saint-Denis? A city can sink under the weight of migrants, if overloaded, just as a boat can.

Pretty much all of those boats are unsafe and overloaded. It's a measure of how desperate they are to escape the basket case countries they come from. I'm sure they'd love to wait for the next ferry but they probably can't afford the fare.

CiDeRmAn · 04-10-2013 08:23PM

Lad Of Banter wrote: »

Isthis normal?

Am actually not so bothered, if they were Asian, would be the same

But if they were100/200 caucaisians i would feel a lot more empathy, sympathy & sorrow.

Is this normal?

There's a certain apathy that sets in when one sees images of people dead or stories of their demise.
It had nothing to do with race, see the apathy to the very white peoples of the Balkans who were shown, massacred in their hundreds, on tv during the early 90's.

I don't think the mind can encompass these losses of life, plus they are unconnected to family, dehumanised into anonymous emigrants.

It's not racist, just too much suffering for most people to imagine.

Red Nissan · 04-10-2013 08:27PM

Wattle wrote: »

Pretty much all of those boats are unsafe and overloaded. It's a measure of how desperate they are to escape the basket case countries they come from. I'm sure they'd love to wait for the next ferry but they probably can't afford the fare.

Rubbish. TBH, it's a measure of how gullible they are, these boat rides cost thousands of Euro, think about how much a few cent can save a child's life, give them eyesight, clean water, school buildings, farm animals and so on and so forth.

These same migrants could save an entire continent, all on their own, for the cost of a boat trip.

Doc Ruby · 04-10-2013 08:36PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

As a species we seem to instinctively relate to those other species with whom we identify. It's tribalism; we are a tribal species. We didn't get this far by identifying with strangers and not with our own kin. The most efficient breeders, throughout human history, have been those who have managed to get the balance right between willingness to share projects with the outsider whilst maintaining a distrust of the outsider. Hence a fragmented but usually cordial world geography.

This is nonsense, people aren't predictable meat machines. In fact studies have shown that people tend to be very attracted to others of the opposite sex who are clearly different in origin (witness the yellow fever). I would feel the same about a group of Americans or Germans who died in a capsized boat, sad but in a distant way.

If a group of Irish people had passed on that way, I'd feel quite a bit more because I'm thinking that could have been me. Maybe that person is friends with someone I know, they went through the same schools as me, enjoyed the same stupid late late toy show when they were kids, would know what I mean if I used the word langer or beure, their mum loved them when they were young and made them dinner, someone just like me.

There's nothing tribal about it, just empathy through shared experiences. I find bollocks about breeders and kin to be at best condescending, and at worst a type of pseudointellectualism exemplified by those with more education than intelligence, and we're not talking about a lot of education here. Arts, at best.

Wattle · 04-10-2013 08:40PM

Red Nissan wrote: »

Rubbish. TBH, it's a measure of how gullible they are, these boat rides cost thousands of Euro, think about how much a few cent can save a child's life, give them eyesight, clean water, school buildings, farm animals and so on and so forth.

These same migrants could save an entire continent, all on their own, for the cost of a boat trip.

Are you seriously telling me that each one of those 500+ migrants had a couple of thousand euro's on them? That's one of the craziest things I've ever heard on AH. Where would they get a few thousand euros in the first place if they can't get jobs?

Cody Pomeray · 04-10-2013 08:42PM

Doc Ruby wrote: »

This is nonsense, people aren't predictable meat machines. In fact studies have shown that people tend to be very attracted to others of the opposite sex who are clearly different in origin

Oh sorry. I should have explained. Unlike you, it seems, I don't base my opinions on some hunch that enters my head at random.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982210004306

Recent neuroimaging evidence indicates that race modulates affective and cognitive components of empathic neural response. One recent neuroimaging study [11] found that White and Asian participants show increased empathic neural response within the supplementary motor area, ACC, and lateral frontal cortices when perceiving a needle penetrating a same-race face, but decreased ACC response when perceiving a needle penetrating an other-race face. Another recent neuroimaging study [12] showed that, for Black and White participants, empathy for ingroup members was neurally distinct from empathy for humankind more generally. When observing the emotional suffering of others, Black and White participants recruited ACC and bilateral AI, yet Black participants additionally recruited MPFC when observing the suffering of members of their own racial group. Moreover, neural activity within MPFC in response to pain expressed by ingroup relative to outgroup members predicted greater empathy and altruistic motivation for one's ingroup, suggesting that neurocognitive processes associated with self-identity underlie extraordinary empathy and altruistic motivation for members of one's own racial group.

The results of all of these studies indicate that empathic neural response is heightened for members of the same race, but not those of other races. It could be argued that as a social species, humans have evolved for cooperative living in social groups and that effective cooperative living sometimes entails belonging to smaller social groups and limiting resource sharing to members of that group so that individual costs and risks associated with nonreciprocated empathy and altruism are reduced.

04-10-2013 08:47PM

I expect that tragedies like this will become more and more common in the future as the economies (& stability) of African/Middle Eastern countries continue to become less and less viable and able to support the population explosions in those areas.

All we hear about are the ones that almost get to Europe, what about the countless ones who drown and disappear without trace each and every day.

Another thing that has to be considered, is what to do with all these people who make it across. Some regions could become so overrun with migrants that the local social order collapses and results in the "natives" being run out of town.

In the long term there may be a real backlash against theses migrants, it is already happening in Greece where they get placed into internment camps and sent back whenever possible or made to wish they could go home.

Red Nissan · 04-10-2013 08:48PM

Wattle wrote: »

Are you seriously telling me that each one of those 500+ migrants had a couple of thousand euro's on them? That's one of the craziest things I've ever heard on AH. Where would they get a few thousand euros in the first place if they can't get jobs?

May I humbly suggest one reads more. These people are 'people trafficked' they are not a collection of 'refugees' running away from certain death in a blitzkrieg situation or Dunkirk evacuation.

They are approached and sold the notion of leaving and they do pay heavily in CASH ~ the irony is as I posted, they often COULD lead very good lives for what they pay these smugglers.

Gee Bag · 04-10-2013 08:50PM

Red Nissan wrote: »

May I humbly suggest one reads more. These people are 'people trafficked' they are not a collection of 'refugees' running away from certain death in a blitzkrieg situation or Dunkirk evacuation.

They are approached and sold the notion of leaving and they do pay heavily in CASH ~ the irony is as I posted, they often COULD lead very good lives for what they pay these smugglers.

...and your evidence for this sweeping statement is?

Nodin · 04-10-2013 08:53PM

Red Nissan wrote: »

May I humbly suggest one reads more. These people are 'people trafficked' they are not a collection of 'refugees' running away from certain death in a blitzkrieg situation or Dunkirk evacuation.

They are approached and sold the notion of leaving and they do pay heavily in CASH ~ the irony is as I posted, they often COULD lead very good lives for what they pay these smugglers.

..course. Who the fuck in their right mind would want to flee Somalia?

Red Nissan · 04-10-2013 08:54PM

General comment here, on local radio, 96FM several asylum seekers were interviewed in the morning programme, all said they paid between three thousand and five thousand Euro to get into Ireland, that's €3,000 to €5,000 Wattle's question to me is a very valid one indeed, where do they get this type of money?

Think on.

Not caring about the Africans dieing in Italy...

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