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Is there a differance between the Real IRA and the Continuity IRA?

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Comments

  • #332
    Howard Juneau
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,901 ✭✭✭Howard Juneau


    tdv123 wrote: »
    That still wouldn't change my opinion of the right of an oppressed people to fight back against a tyrant.

    I don't believe Jean McConville was a tyrant?


  • #333
    Howard Juneau
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,901 ✭✭✭Howard Juneau


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    You brought up the Mc Convilles- the fact that some her children went on to work and fight for the INLA tells a different story than the one you would want told by bringing that up.

    One of her son's was involved with the ira, at the time, doesn't make her death any less horrific.


  • #334
    joe swanson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭joe swanson


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    He said clearly on this thread that he doesnt.

    Im sure he can answer himself........ . The question was completely justifiable consideribg the statement made by him.


  • #335
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Howard Juneau wrote: »
    But isn't that what you do? You hide behind sweeping generalisations, use all the buzz words, but cry foul when an actual human being who was murdered is put before you as it is no longer an intangible.
    Removing the root cause indeed.

    No I dont- I have made clear my extreme unease with the Provisional's campaign. However I realize that it didnt drop out of the sky. I fully realize what the Unionist community went through during the troubles. The fact is though that the killing and the driving people to kill wasnt all one sided. I know a lot more about the actual human beings killed by the IRA than you do.


  • #336
    Howard Juneau
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,901 ✭✭✭Howard Juneau


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Yes I am but the troubles and the north directly effects me.

    When you bring up nasty things the Provos have done you are bringing people's personal lives into it. You are turning it from a political debate into a matter of sentimentality or trying to do.

    Murder by provos has nothing to do with political debate.


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  • #337
    Howard Juneau
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,901 ✭✭✭Howard Juneau


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    No I dont- I have made clear my extreme unease with the Provisional's campaign. However I realize that it didnt drop out of the sky. I fully realize what the Unionist community went through during the troubles. The fact is though that the killing and the driving people to kill wasnt all one sided. I know a lot more about the actual human beings killed by the IRA than you do.

    You have absolutely no idea what I have or have not experienced in my life


  • #338
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Howard Juneau wrote: »
    One of her son's was involved with the ira, at the time, doesn't make her death any less horrific.

    One of her sons was in the Official IRA, two later were involved the INLA who if anything were more brutal than the Provos.

    Why pick of this killing and not say Juile Livingstone?


  • #339
    tdv123
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭tdv123


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    I can think of really good arguments defending the CIRA and RIRA but Northern Ireland/the six counties/whatever you want to call is a very complex and messed up place. In many ways I hate it but I still care about it deeply. Possibly they have a right to armed resistance but that doesnt make it wise. The only way though to really remove violence is to remove the roots of it.

    I can't defend the CIRA & RIRA. The people of the island made it very clear that they wanted an end to violence & for parties involved to pursue their respective goals by political means only. CIRA, RIRA & other similar groups are going against the will of the people. And it's also pretty clear that no more can be achieved through violence, so the violence is just pointless & won't lead anywhere.

    The situation was different for the Provos, people who joined them where just ordinary people who were disgusted by the injustices & brutality of the state against normal people. They fought on behalf of the people & the people wanted them to fight. The provos have brought around a situation where nationalist aspirations can now realistically be met through the ballot box alone so there is no need for the gun any longer, that situation did not exist in 1970.


  • #340
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Howard Juneau wrote: »
    Murder by provos has nothing to do with political debate.

    Yes it does- the troubles came out of political problems and political evils. They would still be going on if more people had your attitude.


  • #341
    joe swanson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭joe swanson


    tdv123 wrote: »
    I can't defend the CIRA & RIRA. The people of the island made it very clear that they wanted an end to violence for parties involved to pursue their respective goals. CIRA, RIRA & other similar groups are going against the will of the people. And it's also pretty clear that no more can be achieved through violence, so the violence is just pointless & won't lead anywhere.


    The situation was different for the Provos, people who joined them where just ordinary people who were disgusted by the injustices & brutality of the state against normal people. They fought on behalf of the people & the people wanted them to fight. The provos have brought around a situation where nationalist aspirations can now realistically be met through the ballot box alone so there is no need for the gun any longer, that situation did not exist in 1970.

    Dont wanna answer the question?


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  • #342
    Howard Juneau
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,901 ✭✭✭Howard Juneau


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    One of her sons was in the Official IRA, two later were involved the INLA who if anything were more brutal than the Provos.

    Why pick of this killing and not say Juile Livingstone?

    She was an innocent victim. No child should ever die in this way.
    But she wasn't dragged out, tortured & then executed


  • #343
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    joe swanson wrote: »
    Dont wanna answer the question?

    Jean Mc Conville was an informer who was killed and her body hidden because of the strength of the Officials in Divis.

    She was actively involved in the pro-British in the troubles.

    Far more innocent people died.


  • #344
    Howard Juneau
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,901 ✭✭✭Howard Juneau


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Yes it does- the troubles came out of political problems and political evils. They would still be going on if more people had your attitude.

    Really? Because I abhor all violence & feel it has no place in a civilised world?


  • #345
    Howard Juneau
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,901 ✭✭✭Howard Juneau


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Jean Mc Conville was an informer who was killed and her body hidden because of the strength of the Officials in Divis.

    She was actively involved in the pro-British in the troubles.

    Far more innocent people died.

    And we both know that is a lie


  • #346
    tdv123
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭tdv123


    joe swanson wrote: »
    So in light of that statement, please justify the kingsmill massacre?

    I said I supported their right to armed resistance. I didn't say I supported every single action carried out by them. Just like I would have supported the allies in WWII but wouldn't have agreed with them dropping a bomb that killed 50,000 civilians.

    Besides Kingsmills was carried out by independent members of the PIRA & INLA, it wasn't sanctioned by eithers army council.


  • #347
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Howard Juneau wrote: »
    She was an innocent victim. No child should ever die in this way.
    But she wasn't dragged out, tortured & then executed

    What about the torture in Castlereagh? Or how the Shankhill butchers were let run loose?

    No one come out of the Troubles smelling of roses- why do you pick on side?


  • #348
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Howard Juneau wrote: »
    And we both know that is a lie

    No we dont- I trust Brendan Hughes' account.


  • #349
    joe swanson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭joe swanson


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Jean Mc Conville was an informer who was killed and her body hidden because of the strength of the Officials in Divis.

    She was actively involved in the pro-British in the troubles.

    Far more innocent people died.

    I meant my question to tdv re kinsmill in light pf his earlier statement.

    +its disgusting to even attempt to justify the death of jean mcconville


  • #350
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Howard Juneau wrote: »
    Really? Because I abhor all violence & feel it has no place in a civilised world?

    Northern Ireland isnt civilized if that word is to mean any good and it certainly wasnt back than.

    Do you abhor British and American Imperialism too???


  • #351
    Howard Juneau
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,901 ✭✭✭Howard Juneau


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    What about the torture in Castlereagh? Or how the Shankhill butchers were let run loose?

    No one come out of the Troubles smelling of roses- why do you pick on side?

    I abhor all violence. Murder is murder, that is undeniable.
    The Shankhill butchers never claimed to kill anyone in my name though


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  • #352
    tdv123
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭tdv123


    Howard Juneau wrote: »
    I don't believe Jean McConville was a tyrant?

    She was an informer, she was giving information to the tyrant. And don't call it a lie, her family were Republicans it would make no sense to kill her if she was a civilian which she clearly was not.


  • #353
    joe swanson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭joe swanson


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Northern Ireland isnt civilized if that word is to mean any good and it certainly wasnt back than.

    Do you abhor British and American Imperialism too???

    If all else fails, resort to whataboutery....


  • #354
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Well, this thread is a nicely bubbling pot of mudslinging and rehashing old positions and accusations. Don't try to refight the Troubles in the forum, please.

    The who in particular, tone it down, or you'll get a ban fairly soon. If you're "sick and tired" of people who dislike the IRA, a political discussion forum is not the place to be.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


  • #355
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    joe swanson wrote: »
    I meant my question to tdv re kinsmill in light pf his earlier statement.

    +its disgusting to even attempt to justify the death of jean mcconville

    Plenty of innocent people were slaughtered.

    I wouldnt include my dad in that in that as an RUC officer he was actively in the troubles. So was she.

    If you got involved you knew the risks- and that goes for PIRA members killed by the SAS. Mairead Farrell knew what she getting involved and knew the risks- she wasnt an innocent.


  • #356
    tdv123
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭tdv123


    Howard Juneau wrote: »
    I abhor all violence. Murder is murder, that is undeniable.
    The Shankhill butchers never claimed to kill anyone in my name though

    Ah yeah sure if people are not killing in your name it's grand. It's only when killing is done your name that it's bad.


  • #357
    Howard Juneau
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,901 ✭✭✭Howard Juneau


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Northern Ireland isnt civilized if that word is to mean any good and it certainly wasnt back than.

    Do you abhor British and American Imperialism too???

    No, it is civilised, it's certain sections of the country who are not.
    I won't call a whole country uncivilized because of the actions of a minority


  • #358
    joe swanson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭joe swanson


    tdv123 wrote: »
    She was an informer, she was giving information to the tyrant. And don't call it a lie, her family were Republicans it would make no sense to kill her if she was a civilian which she clearly was not.

    Still not want to answer my earlier question.?
    ps trying to justify the murder of jean mcconnville says more about you than it does about her.


  • #359
    tdv123
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭tdv123


    joe swanson wrote: »
    Dont wanna answer the question?

    What question?


  • #360
    Howard Juneau
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,901 ✭✭✭Howard Juneau


    tdv123 wrote: »
    Ah yeah sure if people are not killing in your name it's grand. It's only when killing is done your name that it's bad.

    If you say so, I don't agree with your thinking though


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  • #361
    tdv123
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭tdv123


    joe swanson wrote: »
    Still not want to answer my earlier question.?
    ps trying to justify the murder of jean mcconnville says more about you than it does about her.

    I'm not trying to justify any killings, but I did explain why she was killed.


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