Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

keps · 01-10-2013 10:22PM

Shelflife wrote: »

If eng don't have a get out clause in their bt contract they are well and truely screwed.

While not in anyway pre-empting matters..

I would say that if PLR cannot deliver a competition to BT- then the contract dies.
In advance that happening however, I would guess that they would engage in negotiations with ERC - extract some concessions and say ' that is all we were looking for all along and it proves how right we were to put the gun to the ERC heads'

irishbucsfan · 01-10-2013 10:28PM

keps wrote: »

My information is that Blanco is against the proposed new competition.

Serge Blanco has always hated the ERC since he was President of LNR and tried to organise the last boycott, coming out with stuff like:

"The omnipotence of an ERC board which chokes everything is finished," he told the Guardian. "It refuses to be accountable and we do not want to submit to its will.

"We have been very well-behaved children up to now, but that is finished. There will be a revolution if they do not listen to us. I am sounding the alarm before it is too late."

Widely reported to be in favour of it, hasn't said it publically but it would be inappropriate for him to do so until the FFR decides.

keps · 01-10-2013 10:31PM

I repeat - my well informed information tells me Serge Blanco is against the new competition.

McCBrian · 01-10-2013 10:44PM

keps wrote: »

I repeat - my well informed information tells me Serge Blanco is against the new competition.

He actually speaks a lot of sense quelle surprise

http://blogs.rue89.com/raffut89/2013/09/23/rugby-pour-plus-dargent-et-de-pouvoir-anglais-et-francais-rejouent-lentente-cordiale-231192

irishbucsfan · 01-10-2013 10:48PM

From the Bath website today:

" "Many of you may have seen the recent press release and reports and been surprised at the action taken on a bi-lateral basis by the French and English clubs. This situation has been brought about due to the necessity to put into place a competition for the 2014/15 season that at present is void of international competition. For the supporters, the clubs, and for rugby in the northern hemisphere, it is important that the English and French clubs now take the lead to attempt to save European rugby.

"My view is that new competitions should be fair. The rugby public would like to see exciting, stronger competitions in the future that have sporting equity. This has been the base of the Anglo/French position for over a year now. The proposal for two competitions with 20 teams in each is that there is qualification for the main competition through the three European leagues on a meritocratic basis (the top six clubs in each league qualify for the primary competition). There is no automatic qualification for any team, which in effect strengthens both the European competitions and, paradoxically, the Celtic domestic league.

"Secondly, my view is that there is a misrepresentation over financial distributions that should be clarified to the public. The English and French Television rights represent almost 80% of revenues in European competitions. Present distributions in the Heineken Cup are 52% for 12 teams in the Celtic league, 24% for 12 teams in the Premiership and 24% for 14 teams in the Top 14 - that is clearly unfair. In the new competitions the proposal would be for an equal 33% distribution to each league.

"My final point is that the game needs European rugby. There is no viable proposal made by any other party over the last 12 months of negotiation and the Unions' position has become more entrenched for the status quo. The English and French clubs are taking the lead to save European rugby by proposing new competitions open to all existing participants. They are fair and meritocratic and would certainly be in the public's interest. If the Unions in the coming weeks do not approve the competitions, through regulatory process, it will no doubt destroy European rugby and have catastrophic financial implications for Celtic and Italian rugby.

"The hour is grave and I sincerely hope the English and French proposals are taken seriously, and that we can all enjoy fabulous exciting European rugby in the future." "

Pretty much more of the same from Bruce Craig.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience · 01-10-2013 10:51PM

Jesus that is some load of waffle

errlloyd · 01-10-2013 10:57PM

Shelflife wrote: »

The money is split the way it is , because that's the way the participants decided on it years ago. They were all there , they are all grown ups and that's the deal they came up with.

As much as I agree with you, or would like to agree with you this is a common misconception that is causing confusion.

The PLR and NRL are the organisations in charge of the professional rugby teams in England and France respectively. They were not there 20 years ago, the national unions agreed that deal twenty years ago.

In Ireland, Scotland and Italy the national unions and the clubs are largely the same thing. In Wales there is a larger gap between the regions and the union, and in France and England they are different completely.

Pete_Cavan · 01-10-2013 10:57PM

Time for the Pro12 teams to play hardball. Go to the French and offer them an ERC competition with 8 Top14 teams and their 12 teams. That gives the French the opportunity to add two teams to their domestic competition, I think they would jump at the chance. It gives them what they really want, Top16, while also competing in an IRB sanctioned, already commercially successful pan European competition with participants from multiple tier 1 nations, a great history, and existing audience, sponsors, etc. There will be a bit of wrangling over how to split the pot etc. but I am sure the French would be more than willing to negotiate and hammer out a deal. I am sure Sky and Heineken will make a good offer if there is a chance to preserve the competition that they have invested a huge amount of time, money and resources into promoting and kill off any rival competition before it starts.

What have PRL to offer? A legal battle to create a brand new competition with no legacy, no fan base, no brand recognition and no prestige with sides from only two nations which is likely to get stale very fast. Most French clubs have only started to take the HEC seriously in last few years, how long will it take before they bother with a new competition? If the French send out second string teams the competition will not be a commercial success. I don't think this new competition will entice as many UK subscribers as BT think and most will be happy to stay with Sky for Pro12 and international rugby. Even if the new competition gets off the ground, I can only see it being a flop.

the French haven't nailed their colours to the English mast yet and I am sure they would be more than happy to compromise on a few things to get the Top16 while still keeping the HEC. Leave the English on the sideline for a year on two and they will be desperate to get back in. Even if we get some kind of memorandum of understanding with LNR, we would have PRL over a barrel. Go for broke with the French and all this madness will be over before Christmas.
s.

bilston · 01-10-2013 11:04PM

Quick point on Bruce Craig's argument that the English and French provide 80% of the tv rights. How does he work out the English breakdown? Surely there are no English rights? Are they not UK rights which includes Scotland, Wales and NI (effectively Ulster)? Or is he just guessing?

irishbucsfan · 01-10-2013 11:16PM

bilston wrote: »

Quick point on Bruce Craig's argument that the English and French provide 80% of the tv rights. How does he work out the English breakdown? Surely there are no English rights? Are they not UK rights which includes Scotland, Wales and NI (effectively Ulster)? Or is he just guessing?

No, there are English rights owned by the RFU, Scottish rights owned by the SRU, Welsh rights owned by the WRU and NI rights owned by the IRFU. It wouldn't work if there were UK rights.

Zzippy · 01-10-2013 11:16PM

Most of this thread, and one poster in particular, remind me of this... :rolleyes:

McCBrian · 01-10-2013 11:17PM

bilston wrote: »

Quick point on Bruce Craig's argument that the English and French provide 80% of the tv rights. How does he work out the English breakdown? Surely there are no English rights? Are they not UK rights which includes Scotland, Wales and NI (effectively Ulster)? Or is he just guessing?

There are so much misconstrued information in Craig's statement i would not know where to start

keps · 01-10-2013 11:19PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

From the Bath website today:

"The hour is grave and I sincerely hope....

Who does he think he is Winston Churchill?

As far as I am concerned we will fight the PLR-
We shall go on to the end.
We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the playing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender.

Winters · 01-10-2013 11:19PM

bilston wrote: »

Quick point on Bruce Craig's argument that the English and French provide 80% of the tv rights. How does he work out the English breakdown? Surely there are no English rights? Are they not UK rights which includes Scotland, Wales and NI (effectively Ulster)? Or is he just guessing?

Firstly, the TV package sold to Sky is actually for UK and Ireland and secondly how does he know the English viewers want to watch an Aviva Premiership club? They could be a Richmond RFC supporter, a Nottingham supporter, an England only supporter, a diaspora Connacht supporter even.. While they may or may not be a PRL club supporter they would be a rugby supporter.. hence the RFU..

Mal-Adjusted · 01-10-2013 11:24PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Time for the Pro12 teams to play hardball. Go to the French and offer them an ERC competition with 8 Top14 teams and their 12 teams.

Leave the English on the sideline for a year on two and they will be desperate to get back in.

but haven't the french already stated that they won't participate in a European competition without the english teams?

Winters · 01-10-2013 11:26PM

errlloyd wrote: »

As much as I agree with you, or would like to agree with you this is a common misconception that is causing confusion.

The PLR and NRL are the organisations in charge of the professional rugby teams in England and France respectively. They were not there 20 years ago, the national unions agreed that deal twenty years ago.

The tournament and the ERC itself have evolved in many ways since first formulated. The current Paris Accord was signed 6 years ago somewhere in eh.. France. It is the details of this that the poster is referring to.

McCBrian · 01-10-2013 11:26PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, there are English rights owned by the RFU, Scottish rights owned by the SRU, Welsh rights owned by the WRU and NI rights owned by the IRFU. It wouldn't work if there were UK rights.

Do not know how to re-affirm this to you but PRL had no right to sell "exclusive TV rights" to a UK broadcaster for a putative European competition from either the RFU and/or ERC

Also there are "Exclusive UK rights" to the 6N's which seems to disprove your argument and they are not split according to potential televisual audience in each country:eek:

McCBrian · 01-10-2013 11:32PM

IBF still waiting for your reply to post #4232 in case you missed it or glossed over it;)

bilston · 01-10-2013 11:33PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, there are English rights owned by the RFU, Scottish rights owned by the SRU, Welsh rights owned by the WRU and NI rights owned by the IRFU. It wouldn't work if there were UK rights.

Really? I thought there were UK rights for the HEC and 6Ns. Is that not why England were nearly kicked out of the old 5Ns back in the 90s?

Winters · 01-10-2013 11:42PM

All this talk of comparing leagues, clubs, numbers of participants, revenue and meritocracy is apple and oranges still. Why have the English and French not realised this yet? Excellent point made by Jeff Probyn on the topic of meritocracy:

It could be argued that because each Rabo Pro12 country has chosen their elite players and created elite teams, they have circumvented the need for European qualification based on merit, as the teams contain the best players that country has to offer.

France and England, on the other hand, have at least ten times the number of players and have their elite players divided between 14 and 12 teams respectively and so need a meritocracy to sort ‘the wheat from the chaff’ each season.

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/features/columnists/jeff-probyn/11120/jeff-probyn-money-is-not-the-root-of-all-success-in-europe/#comments

The Pro12 system already uses meritocracy, in the form of its players.

Also comparing the likes of English clubs and Pro12 clubs is flawed. Take for example Leicester Tigers and Leinster. Leicester Tigers is a rugby club while Leinster is a representative side akin to the Super Rugby teams. Leinster in fact represents 71 clubs.

I have said it before, comparing the Pro12 and it's teams to the French or English teams is not comparing like for like at all.

Winters · 01-10-2013 11:45PM

bilston wrote: »

Really? I thought there were UK rights for the HEC and 6Ns. Is that not why England were nearly kicked out of the old 5Ns back in the 90s?

2. The broadcasting rights to the Championship are pooled and exploited centrally, with the resulting revenues shared 75% equally, 15% based on finishing position in the Championship, and 10% on relative size. While this formula does not reflect the contributions made to the central media pot by the unions' respective domestic TV markets (for example, RTE pays only c.€3 million pa in Ireland, yet the IRFU receives c.€11 million from the central media pot), this distribution helps maintain solidarity, unity and cohesion, and ensures the retention of broad competitive balance across all six nations, without which the strength of the competition would collapse.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/save/the_facts.php

Winters · 01-10-2013 11:47PM

keps wrote: »

I repeat - my well informed information tells me Serge Blanco is against the new competition.

Serge will do what suits Serge and Biarritz best.

McCBrian · 02-10-2013 12:26AM

Winters wrote: »

http://www.irishrugby.ie/save/the_facts.php

bilston wrote:

Really? I thought there were UK rights for the HEC and 6Ns. Is that not why England were nearly kicked out of the old 5Ns back in the 90s?
Quote:
2. The broadcasting rights to the Championship are pooled and exploited centrally, with the resulting revenues shared 75% equally, 15% based on finishing position in the Championship, and 10% on relative size. While this formula does not reflect the contributions made to the central media pot by the unions' respective domestic TV markets (for example, RTE pays only c.€3 million pa in Ireland, yet the IRFU receives c.€11 million from the central media pot), this distribution helps maintain solidarity, unity and cohesion, and ensures the retention of broad competitive balance across all six nations, without which the strength of the competition would collapse.
http://www.irishrugby.ie/save/the_facts.php [Quote/bilston]

Them FACTS are interesting and make IBF's apparant re-distribution of the European money being split equally between Leagues redundant as a precedent has been set. "This distribution helps maintain solidarity, unity and cohesion, and ensures the retention of broad competitive balance across all six nations, without which the strength of the competition would collapse"

Not all about how much 1/12th of a constitutant of the board of ERC can garner more money (even though they have no shares in ERC and if they do go ahead with their dis-association with ERC they do realise that their voting rights revert back to the RFU:) Same for LNR if they secede and withdraw their shares will go back to the FFR

PRL/LNR clubs not in that stong a position;)

McCBrian · 02-10-2013 01:07AM

The big changer imho was the leaked interview with the RM92 chairman (following a meeting with Craig Bath chairman), about the RCC trying to expand to include South Pacific National teams and ENC1A/1B National teams.
And would never receive IRB approval as it goes against their principals

Surely as PRL have proposed they are trying to organse a 2 tier 40 team competition, lets take it on face value and the French join them (12AP T14 where are they going to find the other 14 teams?) Plus an additional 3rd tier competition where they fly teams from Siberia to Portugal and vice vesra etc as PRL indicated that they would underwrite the 3rd tier competition.:eek:

Clearlier · 02-10-2013 06:47AM

McCBrian wrote: »

IBF still waiting for your reply to post #4232 in case you missed it or glossed over it;)

Get back in the queue, I'm still waiting for a response to post #4197.

keps · 02-10-2013 08:30AM

Mine 4194:eek:

Winters · 02-10-2013 10:13AM

An interview by Welsh rugby hack Simon Thomas with David Brent eh I mean Quentin Smith:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/game-crisis-put-key-questions-6122571

Coming out of that I can only surmise that someone is talking ****e.

melekalikimaka · 02-10-2013 10:26AM

Winters wrote: »

An interview by Welsh rugby hack Simon Thomas with David Brent eh I mean Quentin Smith:

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/game-crisis-put-key-questions-6122571

Coming out of that I can only surmise that someone is talking ****e.

they need to get someone in neutral to lay everything out like it is to the public

Eponymous · 02-10-2013 10:27AM

Quentin Smith wrote:

Look, there is a lot of mischief and misinformation out there and a lot of self-serving argument which is specious

Isn't there just.

02-10-2013 10:50AM

All parties have to stop rambling in the press get the heads down and sort this out all this grandstanding is doing no good for the fans players and sponsors, (who would want to work with these guys after all this?)

Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

Comments