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Is there a differance between the Real IRA and the Continuity IRA?

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Comments

  • #92
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Manassas61 wrote: »
    No. For the majority of Ulster to stay within the Union, regardless of faith. I don't care for that.

    By Protestant in this case I mean the word as atheists like Junder use it to describe themselves, or the Protestant Coalition use it- nothing necessarily to do with theology but a lot to do with supporting Rangers and wearing funny hats.


  • #93
    tdv123
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭tdv123


    Manassas61 wrote: »
    No. For the majority of Ulster to stay within the Union, regardless of faith. I don't care for that.

    But the majority of counties in Ulster don't want to be in the Union.


  • #94
    jeffery lebowski
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭jeffery lebowski


    The idea being put forward here that the IRA campaigns of the past (or present) were non sectarian are laughable. The IRA has always seen Protestants as the enemy as they did not conform to their tunnel vision view of Irishness.

    This led to the targetin of Protestants in the 1920's in west Cork and other places, The deliberate targeting of sons of Protestant farmers along the border during the troubles, Kingsmill Massacare and the Enniskillen Poppy Day bombing.

    The modern day 'Republicans' are as closely related to Tone and Orr as a Dog is to a chair. This sectarian undercurrent to republicanism was creeping, but definiate and is the reason why the Presbyterian people of the North eventually decided to side with the Unionist argument and jettison their republican ideals.


  • #95
    Manassas61
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 313 ✭✭Manassas61


    tdv123 wrote: »
    But the majority of counties in Ulster don't want to be in the Union.
    I said majority of Ulster (ie counties) The Union has a majority support in Northern Ireland.
    So you are for the Catholics who support the Union because they see more hope in the UK finally dealing with "Orange culture" than they do the Free State and indeed fear the Free State if unification comes allowing "Orange culture" to walk all over them? You are for those Catholics?
    Catholic Unionists couldn't care less about the Orange Order. There is many parts of a society than just one culture you know.


  • #96
    claypigeon777
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 231 ✭✭claypigeon777


    tdv123 wrote: »
    But the majority of counties in Ulster don't want to be in the Union.

    Truth be told the majority of the 26 counties do not want the six counties to be in the Republic.

    The only solution is an independent Northern Ireland.


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  • #97
    riffmongous
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,951 ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    claypigeon777 wrote: »
    Truth be told the majority of the 26 counties do not want the six counties to be in the Republic.

    The only solution is an independent Northern Ireland.

    Which is funny because that's probably the last thing anybody wants


  • #98
    The who
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23 ✭The who


    Manassas61 wrote: »
    Both are terrorist groups, hate Protestants. That just about sums it up.
    The IRA are not sectarian, yes they may have some sectarian fellas in it that are not true republicans and who don't even know what the tricolour means.Also the army are not terrorists, they are freedom fighters fighting against terrorists.The only terrorists in Ireland are wearing British uniforms.


  • #99
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Manassas61 wrote: »
    Catholic Unionists couldn't care less about the Orange Order. There is many parts of a society than just one culture you know.

    Outside of a few wanting to be English Tories they do as the Orange Order was the main driving force behind discrimination against them, also its purpose today consists in rubbing salt in historical Roman Catholic wounds- for all its shrinkage in membership the OO still has massive influence over NI, you just have to look at how many MLAs are members.


  • #100
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    Manassas61 wrote: »
    I said majority of Ulster (ie counties) The Union has a majority support in Northern Ireland.

    Counting Cavan, Monaghan and Donegal Provisional Sinn Fein is clearly the largest party in Ulster.


  • #101
    Painted Pony
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 209 ✭✭Painted Pony


    first doyle wrote: »
    Political mandates in Ireland pretty much went out the window once Britain gave the UVF terror group what they wanted against the wishes of the vast majority of Irish people.
    That of course presumes that the question of the Irish separation from the UK should have being rightfully addressed by the people of the island of Ireland as a whole. Certainly this is a widely held view, and not just by Irish nationalists, but I don’t think it is a particularly rational one.


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  • #102
    The who
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23 ✭The who


    Godge wrote: »
    That is fantasy stuff. NI is not going to become part of Ireland this century and certainly not because of anything either of those terrorist organisations do so my point about minor political differences being immaterial still stands.

    It most certainly will, tiocfaidh ár lá!


  • #103
    jeffery lebowski
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭jeffery lebowski


    Anyone who maintains the provisional campaign had no sectarianism is simply denying the obvious....Enniskillen 1987 ???


  • #104
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    jeffery lebowski wrote: »
    . This sectarian undercurrent to republicanism was creeping, but definiate and is the reason why the Presbyterian people of the North eventually decided to side with the Unionist argument and jettison their republican ideals.

    So nothing to do with Presbyterians being effectively bought off by the Anglican ascendency and therefore seeking to politically protect their relative privilege? Nothing at all to do with that?

    Tone was on occasion pretty ruthless with his political enemies but I guess because he is a Protestant that was due to his idealism and if a Roman Catholic does is equally ruthless that has to be down to sordid sectarianism?

    The innocent Prods school of Irish history can really be as daft as it is shrill when viewed objectively- that is extremely so.


  • #105
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    jeffery lebowski wrote: »
    Anyone who maintains the provisional campaign had no sectarianism is simply denying the obvious....Enniskillen 1987 ???

    I will say this for the Provisional movement and its supporters- at least they are ashamed of their sectarian undercurrent unlike some who will remain nameless.


  • #106
    jeffery lebowski
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭jeffery lebowski


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    I will say this for the Provisional movement and its supporters- at least they are ashamed of their sectarian undercurrent unlike some who will remain nameless.

    So here at least you admit the sectarianism of the republician movement. The whataboutery does not interest me. I know well that sectarianism exists on both sides - I was worried that some on this forum were not aware.


  • #107
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    jeffery lebowski wrote: »
    So here at least you admit the sectarianism of the republician movement. The whataboutery does not interest me. I know well that sectarianism exists on both sides - I was worried that some on this forum were not aware.

    Where did I deny that it did? However unlike Unionism and Loyalism it isnt defined (or defines itself by quite openly) sectarianism.

    Can you admit that the carry on of organized Unionism was the root cause of the Enniskillen bombing?


  • #108
    jeffery lebowski
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭jeffery lebowski


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    So nothing to do with Presbyterians being effectively bought off by the Anglican ascendency and therefore seeking to politically protect their relative privilege? Nothing at all to do with that?

    Tone was on occasion pretty ruthless with his political enemies but I guess because he is a Protestant that was due to his idealism and if a Roman Catholic does is equally ruthless that has to be down to sordid sectarianism?

    The innocent Prods school of Irish history can really be as daft as it is shrill when viewed objectively- that is extremely so.


    Didn't think I was being shrill ?

    I don't remember reading of Tone bombing innocent men, women and children (Enniskillen 1987) - So I would not equate his ruthlessness with that of his modern day 'heirs'


  • #109
    jeffery lebowski
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭jeffery lebowski


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    Where did I deny that it did? However unlike Unionism and Loyalism it isnt defined (or defines itself by quite openly) sectarianism.

    Can you admit that the carry on of organized Unionism was the root cause of the Enniskillen bombing?

    In what way?


  • #110
    jeffery lebowski
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭jeffery lebowski


    SoulandForm wrote: »
    However unlike Unionism and Loyalism it isnt defined (or defines itself by quite openly) sectarianism.

    So Republicanism's underhanded sectarianism is better than Unionisms open sectarianism!?

    Better to be shot from behind a ditch than face to face? Hobbes choice i'd say!


  • #111
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    The who wrote: »
    The IRA are not sectarian, yes they may have some sectarian fellas in it that are not true republicans and who don't even know what the tricolour means.Also the army are not terrorists, they are freedom fighters fighting against terrorists.The only terrorists in Ireland are wearing British uniforms.

    How would you describe an "army" that detonates a bomb outside a McDonald's in a busy high street on a Saturday lunch time?


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  • #112
    jeffery lebowski
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭jeffery lebowski


    The who wrote: »
    The IRA are not sectarian, yes they may have some sectarian fellas in it that are not true republicans and who don't even know what the tricolour means.Also the army are not terrorists, they are freedom fighters fighting against terrorists.The only terrorists in Ireland are wearing British uniforms.


    Wow - Breathtaking revisionism and ignorance. Ask Patsy Gillespie's family if they are 'Freedom fighters' - Oh dear :pac::eek:


  • #113
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    The fallacious moral equivocation and desperate attempts to draw parallels between the PIRA and Loyalist death squads as regards capability, sectarianism and indiscriminate killing requires that facts be completely ignored.


    Loyalists killings were ~85% Civilians (primarily unarmed Catholic civilians)
    British Army killings ~51% Civilian
    PIRA killings ~35% Civilian
    An internal British army document examining 37 years of deployment in Northern Ireland contains the claim by one expert that it failed to defeat the IRA.

    It describes the IRA as "a professional, dedicated, highly skilled and resilient force", while loyalist paramilitaries and other republican groups are described as "little more than a collection of gangsters".

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/6276416.stm
    "There is a congenial, indeed government-backed myth, in both Scotland and in Ireland, that "one side is bad as another": that Sinn Fein-IRA are pretty much the same as the UDA/UVF. This is simply untrue. There is no republican equivalent to the Romper Rooms of the UDA, wherein men were routinely beaten to a pulp by loyalist thugs, and from which both the term and the practice became celebrated. And then there was Lenny Murphy and his merry gang, the Shankill Butchers, who for years in the mid-1970s abducted, tortured and murdered Catholics -- usually by cutting their victims' throats.

    This culture did not emerge simply as a response to IRA violence. It was there already. It was feckless, violent, drunken, lost, lumpen proletarians for whom a perverted tribal identity conjoined with a godlessly Calvinist sense of superiority, even as they stewed in their ghettoes of suffocating illiteracy and economic failure.

    Irish Independent, June 23, 2011

    You'll never guess what IRA loving journalist wrote the above?
    Kevin Myers


  • #114
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Charlie Rock wrote: »
    Loyalists killings were ~85% Civilians (primarily unarmed Catholic civilians)
    British Army killings ~51% Civilian
    PIRA killings ~35% Civilian
    ]

    So in other words, the British army should not have taken prisoners, they should have shot all IRA members on site, to make their percentages look more acceptable.


  • #115
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    So in other words, the British army should not have taken prisoners, they should have shot all IRA members on site, to make their percentages look more acceptable.

    Leaving aside that the BA and its proxies did execute PIRA members on sight how would that affect the rate of civilians the killed?


  • #116
    jeffery lebowski
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭jeffery lebowski


    Charlie Rock wrote: »
    The fallacious moral equivocation and desperate attempts to draw parallels between the PIRA and Loyalist death squads as regards capability, sectarianism and indiscriminate killing requires that facts be completely ignored.


    Loyalists killings were ~85% Civilians (primarily unarmed Catholic civilians)
    British Army killings ~51% Civilian
    PIRA killings ~35% Civilian





    You'll never guess what IRA loving journalist wrote the above?
    Kevin Myers

    Defending the indefensible....Why not use actual figures - rather than %. This tells one that the IRA certainly were more 'efficient' killers (of both communities)


  • #117
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    How would you describe an "army" that detonates a bomb outside a McDonald's in a busy high street on a Saturday lunch time?

    What about an army that open fires on a group of unarmed, peaceful, people protesting for their civil rights, on a Sunday afternoon?

    Some might even argue, was the beginning of the troubles in the north.


  • #118
    The who
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23 ✭The who


    All loyalist paramilitaries were driven by complete and utter sectarianism unlike the IRA. Yes the IRA was responsible for some sectarian killings such as the Kingsmills massacre but these were actually lads in the army who took matters into their own hands and the head leaders such as McGuinnes and Adams couldn't have known about all the killings that were about to take place because the IRA works in a cellular formation.


  • #119
    SoulandForm
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,096 ✭✭✭SoulandForm


    jeffery lebowski wrote: »
    SoulandForm wrote: »
    However unlike Unionism and Loyalism it isnt defined (or defines itself by quite openly) sectarianism.

    So Republicanism's underhanded sectarianism is better than Unionisms open sectarianism!?

    Better to be shot from behind a ditch than face to face? Hobbes choice i'd say!

    People should be ashamed of the usually idiotic and often violent sectarianism that makes a mess of Northern Ireland- though sectarianism is far from the only problem in NI. If you are ashamed of something it means you realize that it is wrong and it means that you will attempt not to act on it or at least show it.


  • #120
    jeffery lebowski
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 92 ✭✭jeffery lebowski


    The who wrote: »
    All loyalist paramilitaries were driven by complete and utter sectarianism unlike the IRA. Yes the IRA was responsible for some sectarian killings such as the Kingsmills massacre but these were actually lads in the army who took matters into their own hands and the head leaders such as McGuinnes and Adams couldn't have known about all the killings that were about to take place because the IRA works in a cellular formation.


    'Cellular formation' ? this is dancing on the head of a pin.... was Patsy Gillespie sanctioned?

    and your lazy stereotype of Republican Freedom fighter V Loyalkist thug is tiresome. Have you read 'Voices from the grave'? Brendan Hughes and David Ervine both seemed motivated by the same thing to me. To defend their own community and to hit the other side bloody hard. Why do you insist one side is better than the other?


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  • #121
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Banjo String wrote: »
    What about an army that open fires on a group of unarmed, peaceful, people protesting for their civil rights, on a Sunday afternoon?

    Some might even argue, was the beginning of the troubles in the north.

    What a surprise, the response starts with "what about..."


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