Kids playing in the front garden?

?Cee?view · 01-10-2013 01:43PM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Really want to tell us at what point somebody in your front garden is trespassing? I wonder how many postmen are breaking the law or even the junk mailers.

You really are missing the point here if you are seriously comparing a postman who by lawful authority (both statutory and common law) is entering the curtilage of your home with an individual who is entering without authority.

You have to be trolling here.

The Diddakoi · 01-10-2013 01:50PM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Really want to tell us at what point somebody in your front garden is trespassing? I wonder how many postmen are breaking the law or even the junk mailers.

Trespass-Intrusion without right or permission

Trespass is committed by anyone who enters or is present on a piece of land, a building or part of a building (whether legally occupied or not) without lawful reason and without the permission of the owner or person who is in charge.

A person with lawful reason to be on someone else's property cannot be convicted of trespassing - even though he or she may be there without the owner's permission. It is for this reason that a milkman, a postman, a sales representative or someone inquiring about directions cannot be a trespasser.

?Cee?view · 01-10-2013 02:10PM

It's strange that the OP is being accused of being anti-social or unneighbourly, or not having a community spirit. To me it's very clear that the neighbours who let their kids ride rough shod over other people's property are the ones who are being unneighbourly.

mikom · 01-10-2013 02:14PM

OP, have you seen or read "A soft touch", which is part of Irvine welshes "Acid house" trilogy?

um7y1h83ge06nx · 01-10-2013 02:23PM

Nope, haven't read it but just read a two line synopsis there.

Guess what you are saying is that being a soft touch is not a good idea.

mikom · 01-10-2013 02:26PM

Regina Round Fatigues wrote: »

Nope, haven't read it but just read a two line synopsis there.

Guess what you are saying is that being a soft touch is not a good idea.

It's up here on youtube.
1/3 of the way in............. and NSFW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKrwEWAKgE4

Ray Palmer · 01-10-2013 02:28PM

?Cee?view wrote: »

You really are missing the point here if you are seriously comparing a postman who by lawful authority (both statutory and common law) is entering the curtilage of your home with an individual who is entering without authority.

You have to be trolling here.

Missing the point? I would consider that these are children and bringing up trespassing laws is missing the point. They are children tell them not to play in your garden if they don't stop go to their parents. That is it! going on about all the legality is way over the top and the solution is easy if it bothers you.

Is it a reasonable position to take in a suburban environment? Some obviously think it is a massive deal I don't. Unless you tell a child they are not welcome to play in your garden I doubt any judge would let them be charged with trespassing. Does that sound unreasonable? Will the cops come to your house if you rang to say their are children trespassing in your front garden?

Get a reality check people. It is utter nonsense to go on about the law on this point it is way too heavy handed a mentality to even consider.

?Cee?view · 01-10-2013 02:35PM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Missing the point? I would consider that these are children and bringing up trespassing laws is missing the point. They are children tell them not to play in your garden if they don't stop go to their parents. That is it! going on about all the legality is way over the top and the solution is easy if it bothers you.

Is it a reasonable position to take in a suburban environment? Some obviously think it is a massive deal I don't. Unless you tell a child they are not welcome to play in your garden I doubt any judge would let them be charged with trespassing. Does that sound unreasonable? Will the cops come to your house if you rang to say their are children trespassing in your front garden?

Get a reality check people. It is utter nonsense to go on about the law on this point it is way too heavy handed a mentality to even consider.

What about being neighbourly and being community spirited. It it reasonable to let your kids run into someone else's garden?

And if I called, of course I would expect the Guards to come. It's their job. To be frank though, I wouldn't call. I'd either:

a. Tell the kids myself to stay away, or.
b. Expect the parents to tell their kids to stay out of my garden.

Gambas · 01-10-2013 02:41PM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Missing the point? I would consider that these are children and bringing up trespassing laws is missing the point. They are children tell them not to play in your garden if they don't stop go to their parents. That is it! going on about all the legality is way over the top and the solution is easy if it bothers you.

Is it a reasonable position to take in a suburban environment? Some obviously think it is a massive deal I don't. Unless you tell a child they are not welcome to play in your garden I doubt any judge would let them be charged with trespassing. Does that sound unreasonable? Will the cops come to your house if you rang to say their are children trespassing in your front garden?

Get a reality check people. It is utter nonsense to go on about the law on this point it is way too heavy handed a mentality to even consider.

Amen to that. For those who are banging on about the law, just try and get a small child convicted of trespassing and see how far you would get. If the law cannot ever be applied then the law de facto does not exist.

OP needs to be polite but firm, particularly regarding any potential for damage to his property - scratching his car etc.. Kids won't mind that. They are oblivious to the consequences of their play. I'd block up that gap with fencing or trelis.

?Cee?view · 01-10-2013 02:56PM

Gambas wrote: »

Amen to that. For those who are banging on about the law, just try and get a small child convicted of trespassing and see how far you would get. If the law cannot ever be applied then the law de facto does not exist.

What?

Gambas wrote: »

OP needs to be polite but firm, particularly regarding any potential for damage to his property - scratching his car etc.. Kids won't mind that. They are oblivious to the consequences of their play. I'd block up that gap with fencing or trelis.

Those lead to legal consequences i.e. the law....

Anyway, if the parents were good neighbours, community spirited and socially aware such that they are in tune with the realities of living in a suburban area, they would know to tell their kids to behave.

seamus · 01-10-2013 03:02PM

You cannot be convicted of trespass in Ireland just by being on someone else's property.

In order to secure a criminal conviction for trespass you have to prove that the person's trespass is "in such a manner as causes or is likely to cause fear in another person."

If you cannot prove that, then it's a civil matter for which the person is not convicted.

Good luck proving in court how terrified the toddler on his trike made you feel when he trespassed.

Ray Palmer · 01-10-2013 03:19PM

?Cee?view wrote: »

What about being neighbourly and being community spirited. It it reasonable to let your kids run into someone else's garden?

I think it is and it was where I grew up. Kids run in and out of my garden and it doesn't bother me. Many a day did we go bee catching and playing hide and seek and the neighbours didn't mind and I don't either.

?Cee?view wrote: »

And if I called, of course I would expect the Guards to come. It's their job.

Good luck with that logic, as reality is going to hit you hard soon enough.

?Cee?view wrote: »

To be frank though, I wouldn't call. I'd either:

a. Tell the kids myself to stay away, or.
b. Expect the parents to tell their kids to stay out of my garden.

You do realise one of them involves you doing absolutely nothing and just hoping it will be addressed.

It looks like you were wrong with trespassing either way kind of making your whole reliance on the law completely obsolete anyway.

OldNotWIse · 01-10-2013 03:29PM

^ OP could well be met with that kind of attitude, so is there any point talking to the parents?

?Cee?view · 01-10-2013 03:29PM

But you see I should be able to do nothing and expect the parents to discipline the kids. They would I'd they're the type of neighbourly people you're accusing the OP of not being.

As to the law, of course it shouldn't be invoked or have to be invoked. And incidentally, the questions on law in the few posts above turn on the difference between statutory definitions of criminal trespass and conviction for same versus common law trespass. You don't understand the distinction.

It seems to come down to this. You've repeatedly said that you would have no problem with kids in your garden and you've said that the OP is wrong to have an issue with it. That, however, is not your prerogative with regard to his garden whereas of course it is with yours. At its essence, it comes down to mutual respect.

OldNotWIse · 01-10-2013 03:36PM

?Cee?view wrote: »

But you see I should be able to do nothing and expect the parents to discipline the kids. They would I'd they're the type of neighbourly people you're accusing the OP of not being.

As to the law, of course it shouldn't be invoked or have to be invoked. And incidentally, the questions on law in the few posts above turn on the difference between statutory definitions of criminal trespass and conviction for same versus common law trespass. You don't understand the distinction.

It seems to come down to this. You've repeatedly said that you would have no problem with kids in your garden and you've said that the OP is wrong to have an issue with it. That, however, is not your prerogative with regard to his garden whereas of course it is with yours. At its essence, it comes down to mutual respect.

Send them all to Ray's garden, sure he just loves them

Thinking about it though, I dont think OP you would be liable if anything happened. In the past you would have been, but the fact that they are (ahem) there without permission, the only duty you owe them is not to intentionally injure them (something I found difficult trying to study with brats hanging from the balcony) and not act with a reckless disregard towards them. SO annoyances aside, I dont think their parents can come after you for a quick buck if the split themselves open, basically.

:)

um7y1h83ge06nx · 01-10-2013 03:40PM

It's all about give and take. I just don't want them running across for the reasons outlined in post #24.

It's not that I don't like kids or don't want to be "social". It can be nice to have kids out and about when the weather is nice and hearing them play. I'm always very watchful when driving down the cul de sac when it's dry as of course being kids they have a habit of coming from nowhere. That is perfectly reasonable I think.

At the same time I don't feel I have to put up with them running a foot or two outside the windows when I'm working or watching TV or also bumping into them if I walk right outside the front door. I'm their neighbour not their parents.

DellyBelly · 01-10-2013 03:42PM

Dfmnoc wrote: »

Put an electric fence around the garden

That wouldn't be a great idea to be honest. Could be dangerous and I also think it could be illegal.

zl1whqvjs75cdy · 01-10-2013 03:43PM

Yeah I think just say it to the kids. Obviously in the front garden in plain sight, don't call them inside or anything. Or buy a dog? DO you want a dog OP? Everyone loves dogs.

Ray Palmer · 01-10-2013 04:09PM

?Cee?view wrote: »

But you see I should be able to do nothing and expect the parents to discipline the kids. They would I'd they're the type of neighbourly people you're accusing the OP of not being.

Not really, if people aren't aware it is bothering anybody why would they do anything to address it. They may have been brought up in a nice area like me where nobody was bothered by it.

.

?Cee?view wrote: »

It seems to come down to this. You've repeatedly said that you would have no problem with kids in your garden and you've said that the OP is wrong to have an issue with it. That, however, is not your prerogative with regard to his garden whereas of course it is with yours. At its essence, it comes down to mutual respect.

No I never said the OP is wrong. Never claimed they had no right to do anything either. No it isn't mutual respect issue either as the OP is not addressing the children nor their parents. Mutual respect would involve letting the people involved knowing there is something wrong.

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Send them all to Ray's garden, sure he just loves them Thinking about it though, I dont think OP you would be liable if anything happened. In the past you would have been, but the fact that they are (ahem) there without permission, the only duty you owe them is not to intentionally injure them (something I found difficult trying to study with brats hanging from the balcony) and not act with a reckless disregard towards them. SO annoyances aside, I dont think their parents can come after you for a quick buck if the split themselves open, basically. :)

Actually I already stated I don't like kids in this thread. Not sure why you guys insist on saying I have made statements I haven't or contradict what I actually said.

It is also not true that if somebody injures themselves on your property that you are not liable. If you leave something unsafe in an area somebody can access and they injure themselves you are liable. This is particularly applicable to children as it is expected that children will go where they shouldn't. That is why building sites have barriers around them even in small builds.

OldNotWIse · 01-10-2013 04:26PM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Not really, if people aren't aware it is bothering anybody why would they do anything to address it. They may have been brought up in a nice area like me where nobody was bothered by it.

.

No I never said the OP is wrong. Never claimed they had no right to do anything either. No it isn't mutual respect issue either as the OP is not addressing the children nor their parents. Mutual respect would involve letting the people involved knowing there is something wrong.

Actually I already stated I don't like kids in this thread. Not sure why you guys insist on saying I have made statements I haven't or contradict what I actually said.

It is also not true that if somebody injures themselves on your property that you are not liable. If you leave something unsafe in an area somebody can access and they injure themselves you are liable. This is particularly applicable to children as it is expected that children will go where they shouldn't. That is why building sites have barriers around them even in small builds.

Yes, and that is covered by intenionally causing harm or having a reckless disregard. You can find an exact definition in section 4 (subsection 1) of the Occupier's Liability Act 1995.

Building sites have barriers to keep people out but more than that, because it means they have taken reasonable steps to disolve their liability. A fence will not stop someone who really wants to get in, but once the site has erected that fence, they are less likely to be liable. Its to protect themselves from litigation, not necessarily to protect the foolish public from jumping into manholes and suing.

A standard garden is hardly going to have bulldozers and the likes in it, is it?

ShaShaBear · 01-10-2013 06:06PM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Not really, if people aren't aware it is bothering anybody why would they do anything to address it. They may have been brought up in a nice area like me where nobody was bothered by it.

Or maybe you were brought up in a time when it wasn't considered odd to have your children disappear into a neighbour's garden and risk them vandalising your property, pull up your flowers, draw on your driveway, scratch your car, break your plant pots or possibly even smash your window.

Or are you just trying to suggest that the OP must not have been reared in a "nice" area to have the opinion that they are entitled to privacy in their own property? :rolleyes:

The Diddakoi · 01-10-2013 06:22PM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Missing the point? I would consider that these are children and bringing up trespassing laws is missing the point. They are children tell them not to play in your garden if they don't stop go to their parents. That is it! going on about all the legality is way over the top and the solution is easy if it bothers you.

Is it a reasonable position to take in a suburban environment? Some obviously think it is a massive deal I don't. Unless you tell a child they are not welcome to play in your garden I doubt any judge would let them be charged with trespassing. Does that sound unreasonable? Will the cops come to your house if you rang to say their are children trespassing in your front garden?

Get a reality check people. It is utter nonsense to go on about the law on this point it is way too heavy handed a mentality to even consider.

Nobody in this thread even suggested calling the Cops

Rosier · 02-10-2013 09:40AM

There are ways. I once lived in an open plan house where a neighbour used to get her dogs to defecate on my lawn.

I phoned her in "great concern" saying that as I had just used strong weedkiller on my grass she needed to bath her dog thoroughly...

I would find kids running about like that maddening and it has nothing to do with being "sociable" or "social "; being socially aware works both ways after all We would never have set foot in someone else's garden like that.,

Ray Palmer · 02-10-2013 11:44AM

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Or maybe you were brought up in a time when it wasn't considered odd to have your children disappear into a neighbour's garden and risk them vandalising your property, pull up your flowers, draw on your driveway, scratch your car, break your plant pots or possibly even smash your window.

Again with the exaggerations. There has been no mention of intentional damage been caused by these kids. Seeing as I don't have a time machine it is strange that I managed to live in the same time now some 30 years later!

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Or are you just trying to suggest that the OP must not have been reared in a "nice" area to have the opinion that they are entitled to privacy in their own property? :rolleyes:

No I was just pointing out that it was acceptable and where I lived didn't break down into some post apocalyptic world where society broke down due to kids occasionally playing in neighbours gardens.

The exaggeration of dangers is completely laughable and absurd.

If he doesn't like talk to them the answer is clear.

Ray Palmer · 02-10-2013 11:45AM

alf66 wrote: »

Nobody in this thread even suggested calling the Cops

But they went on about the legalities. How do you think they were planning to enforce this?

djimi · 02-10-2013 11:55AM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Again with the exaggerations. There has been no mention of intentional damage been caused by these kids. Seeing as I don't have a time machine it is strange that I managed to live in the same time now some 30 years later!

It doesnt have to be intentional, and with kids it probably wouldnt be, but you cant seriously be denying that any/all of the listed damage could be caused by kids playing?

OldNotWIse · 02-10-2013 11:58AM

Ray Palmer wrote: »

But they went on about the legalities. How do you think they were planning to enforce this?

Do you think we were all going to call the guards on OH's behalf? Call around and make a citizens arrest??

The legalities were discussed to clarify that what the children are doing is wrong. Thats not quite the same as saying we are going to call the guards...and you who get so offended when other posters misrepresent what you say?

Rosier · 02-10-2013 11:58AM

:eek:

Rosier wrote: »

There are ways. I once lived in an open plan house where a neighbour used to get her dogs to defecate on my lawn.

I phoned her in "great concern" saying that as I had just used strong weedkiller on my grass she needed to bath her dog thoroughly...

I would find kids running about like that maddening and it has nothing to do with being "sociable" or "social "; being socially aware works both ways after all We would never have set foot in someone else's garden like that.,

PS the dog was a very low slung sausage dog... :pac::eek::P

foggy_lad · 02-10-2013 12:01PM

ABajaninCork wrote: »

That's ridiculous. The OP is an adult. So (I assume) are the little darling's parents. Why can't he have an adult conversation with the parents? Tell them it is not acceptable to have their kids running riot on his property as they like.

Either that or HE can roar at the kids himself!

Many parents react very badly when told their child is annoying the neighbours. Best to TELL the kids to get out of that garden as asking them only gives them options and they will chose to keep using the garden as it suits them.

djimi · 02-10-2013 12:03PM

foggy_lad wrote: »

Many parents react very badly when told their child is annoying the neighbours. Best to TELL the kids to get out of that garden as asking them only gives them options and they will chose to keep using the garden as it suits them.

Plus kids are far more likely to respond to the OP letting a roar at them, than they are to their parents...

Kids playing in the front garden?

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