Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

irishbucsfan · 26-09-2013 12:08PM

elguapo wrote: »

What a load of bollocks.

They're developing a system whereby they take an even larger share of the pot; they'll use some of that cash to throw big money at the best players from the Celtic nations and Italy, making it all but impossible for any team outside of France or England to win the Super Dooper Galaxy Cup.
It's happening already; this will only accelerate the process.

"An even larger share"

You mean like larger than 24%?

They put 26 sides into European comeptition. Are outvoted 2 to 1 by the 4 Unions from a league of teams who put 12 teams into the competitions and receive 52% of the revenue.

It's unjustifiable. It doesn't make sense from a rugby, or financial, perspective.

rrpc · 26-09-2013 12:14PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

"An even larger share"

You mean like larger than 24%?

They put 26 sides into European comeptition. Are outvoted 2 to 1 by the 4 Unions from a league of teams who put 12 teams into the competitions and receive 52% of the revenue.

It's unjustifiable. It doesn't make sense from a rugby, or financial, perspective.

Seriously, what a load of misdirection.

Have a read of your post again IBF, because it's seriously flawed and riddled with ambiguity. Purposely so methinks.

24% [and] they put 26 sides into..

irishbucsfan · 26-09-2013 12:15PM

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Maybe your french is better than Mine and Google? Is the World Cup for clubs, called Rugby Champions Cup a mistranslation because my understanding of a pretty basic sentence in french is what you see above .

Once again you're blindly ignoring any thing negative PRL/LNR come out with

http://www.leparisien.fr/espace-premium/sports/lancer-la-coupe-du-monde-des-clubs-25-09-2013-3167165.php?

That is not a quote from Lorenzetti! Why are you trying to pass it off as one?!

irishbucsfan · 26-09-2013 12:16PM

rrpc wrote: »

Seriously, what a load of misdirection.

Have a read of your post again IBF, because it's seriously flawed and riddled with ambiguity. Purposely so methinks.

Do the leagues not get 24% each?

Do they not enter 26 teams into European comeptition?

elguapo · 26-09-2013 12:19PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

"An even larger share"

You mean like larger than 24%?

They put 26 sides into European comeptition. Are outvoted 2 to 1 by the 4 Unions from a league of teams who put 12 teams into the competitions and receive 52% of the revenue.

It's unjustifiable. It doesn't make sense from a rugby, or financial, perspective.

Well assuming this new tournament is set up, and the English and French clubs are compensated in a manner they consider reasonable, do you see any outcome other than them lording it over the Celts and Italians financially, picking off their better players, and the whole thing essentially becoming an Anglo-French Cup? Because I can't.

And that certainly doesn't make sense from a rugby perspective.

Winters · 26-09-2013 12:23PM

Announcements by all four Pro12 Unions today. Battle lines drawn..

Hagz · 26-09-2013 12:24PM

The Welsh, Irish and Scottish Rugby Unions have issued statements saying they will not be participating in future tournaments which do not have the full approval of the IRB or the relevant national Rugby Unions.

.

dtpc191991 · 26-09-2013 12:24PM

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/29776.php

Very interesting statements from the Celtic Unions, what they are effectively saying is that if the IRB do approve the RCC they will compete in it, though they would rather a revised version of the HC is kept in place.

Hagz wrote: »

. The Welsh, Irish and Scottish Rugby Unions have issued statements saying they will not be participating in future tournaments which do not have the full approval of the IRB or the relevant national Rugby Unions.

rrpc · 26-09-2013 12:25PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yes absolutely. In Setpember 2012 everyone was working together and predicting a solution before the end of the year. That's everyone including JP Lux, McCafferty, Ritchie and Goze. And it was the original plan.

In September 2012 PRL had already stepped outside the ambit of negotiations by announcing their new deal with BT which included European competitions.

Whatever about whether this was good business sense or not, they had already got themselves a fall back position and according to you, had said they were no longer going to continue with the ERC prior to that BT deal announcement.

So how were they "working together"?

I put it to you that all they wanted to do was close down the ERC and move everybody into their Ready Cash Cow and that was their sole purpose in remaining in talks with the rest of the unions.

It's not really surprising that the other unions might have had a slightly different set of goals.

Howard Juneau · 26-09-2013 12:26PM

dtpc191991 wrote: »

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/29776.php

Very interesting statements from the Celtic Unions, what they are effectively saying is that if the IRB do approve the RCC they will compete in it, though they would rather a revised version of the HC is kept in place.

If approval is given by the IRB, the Irish clubs have no choice but to move as there will not be a HC. Sky will pull all sponsorship immediately.

rrpc · 26-09-2013 12:27PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Do the leagues not get 24% each?

Do they not enter 26 teams into European comeptition?

So then it's 48%, not 24%.

This is what's referred to as dis-ingenuity and I'm surprised to see you stoop so low.

irishbucsfan · 26-09-2013 12:27PM

elguapo wrote: »

Well assuming this new tournament is set up, and the English and French clubs are compensated in a manner they consider reasonable, do you see any outcome other than them lording it over the Celts and Italians financially, picking off their better players, and the whole thing essentially becoming an Anglo-French Cup? Because I can't.

And that certainly doesn't make sense from a rugby perspective.

No I don't see that at all given where the teams are funded from and given the current disparity and the proposed increase. Perhaps French sides.

But regardless it's not the job of the ERC to even domestic teams up financially. It has never been their job. It's their job to run European competition in a way that everyone is happy with. And they've failed to do that.

irishbucsfan · 26-09-2013 12:28PM

rrpc wrote: »

So then it's 48%, not 24%.

This is what's referred to as dis-ingenuity and I'm surprised to see you stoop so low.

Oh FFS, semantics. It's quite clear I was referring to the share singularly.

irishbucsfan · 26-09-2013 12:32PM

dtpc191991 wrote: »

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/29776.php

Very interesting statements from the Celtic Unions, what they are effectively saying is that if the IRB do approve the RCC they will compete in it, though they would rather a revised version of the HC is kept in place.

To be fair, I don't think anyone should be participating in a competition without IRB approval.

The only real obstacle between the new competition and IRB approval though is the RFU and FFR. And the competition shouldn't go ahead without their approval anyway. Not approval forced legally either, they should be happy with the new competition.

dtpc191991 · 26-09-2013 12:33PM

Howard Juneau wrote: »

If approval is given by the IRB, the Irish clubs have no choice but to move as there will not be a HC. Sky will pull all sponsorship immediately.

It is still a change in their tactics. Didn't Browne state a couple of weeks ago that the Irish would not be competing regardless. The worrying thing here is that the statements leave the French/English open to pursuing their new championship and pushing the Celts to accept it. I don't see this ending well for International Rugby if I'm honest.

irishbucsfan · 26-09-2013 12:34PM

rrpc wrote: »

In September 2012 PRL had already stepped outside the ambit of negotiations by announcing their new deal with BT which included European competitions.

Whatever about whether this was good business sense or not, they had already got themselves a fall back position and according to you, had said they were no longer going to continue with the ERC prior to that BT deal announcement.

So how were they "working together"?

I put it to you that all they wanted to do was close down the ERC and move everybody into their Ready Cash Cow and that was their sole purpose in remaining in talks with the rest of the unions.

It's not really surprising that the other unions might have had a slightly different set of goals.

They absolutely did not step outside the ambit of negotiations at that point, no matter how much some people would like to rewrite history.

They were firmly involved in negotiations at that point and working towards remaining in the Heineken Cup.

irishbucsfan · 26-09-2013 12:36PM

dtpc191991 wrote: »

It is still a change in their tactics. Didn't Browne state a couple of weeks ago that the Irish would not be competing regardless. The worrying thing here is that the statements leave the French/English open to pursuing their new championship and pushing the Celts to accept it. I don't see this ending well for International Rugby if I'm honest.

It wasn't Browne, it was Peter Boyle. And yes it does seem to be a little bit of a backtrack. But they have to keep the door open to enter if necessary. Just as. McCafferty said they are planning for the possibility for no European rugby at all next season.

irishbucsfan · 26-09-2013 12:38PM

Interesting how the Welsh statement differed slightly from the others. Especially given there was another article yesterday in the Rugby Paper saying that there were 2 Welsh regions pushing towards the new competition.

Howard Juneau · 26-09-2013 12:41PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It wasn't Browne, it was Peter Boyle. And yes it does seem to be a little bit of a backtrack. But they have to keep the door open to enter if necessary. Just as. McCafferty said they are planning for the possibility for no European rugby at all next season.

Irish clubs must have European rugby next season. You turn around & tell Munster or Ulster supporters next season that the IRFU won't allow them to play in the nee comp, there will be uproar

rrpc · 26-09-2013 12:43PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Oh FFS, semantics. It's quite clear I was referring to the share singularly.

Well if it's a genuine mistake, my apologies, but perhaps you'd better go back and correct it?

irishbucsfan · 26-09-2013 12:44PM

rrpc wrote: »

Well if it's a genuine mistake, my apologies, but perhaps you'd better go back and correct it?

No it's not a mistake. I'll ask you again, is a single share 24%?

LuckyLloyd · 26-09-2013 12:48PM

Howard Juneau wrote: »

Irish clubs must have European rugby next season. You turn around & tell Munster or Ulster supporters next season that the IRFU won't allow them to play in the nee comp, there will be uproar

Would anyone here struggle to muster enthusiasm for the EPL invitational? This could well be the end of my interest in the club game. I'm probably alone in that though.

rrpc · 26-09-2013 12:53PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

They absolutely did not step outside the ambit of negotiations at that point, no matter how much some people would like to rewrite history.

They were firmly involved in negotiations at that point and working towards remaining in the Heineken Cup.

When they'd said earlier in 2012 that the ERC was finished?

And what about this statement you made?

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Either way, the Premiership Rugby guys will say they informed the ERC in writing that they would not be a part of anything and that was after informing them in person 5 days prior.

Howard Juneau · 26-09-2013 12:53PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Would anyone here struggle to muster enthusiasm for the EPL invitational? This could well be the end of my interest in the club game. I'm probably alone in that though.

I would be the polar opposite to you. Club rugby is where my interest lies. I enjoy international rugby, but club rugby is much more important imo

rrpc · 26-09-2013 12:54PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No it's not a mistake. I'll ask you again, is a single share 24%?

You didn't ask me in the first place, but since you're asking so nicely now, it is, and I'll ask you which league has 26 teams?

And you accuse me of semantics :rolleyes:

irishbucsfan · 26-09-2013 12:56PM

rrpc wrote: »

When they'd said earlier in 2012 that the ERC was finished?

And what about this statement you made?

My statement was about the TV deal, which they had informed Sky directly of in writing as well it seems.

They didn't say the ERC was finished in 2012. They said they were pulling out pending their demands being met. But they said consistently up until this year their priority was to remain in the competition. It was only until the May meeting (the 2nd of the year!) that they said otherwise.

26-09-2013 01:01PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

They absolutely did not step outside the ambit of negotiations at that point, no matter how much some people would like to rewrite history.

They were firmly involved in negotiations at that point and working towards remaining in the Heineken Cup.

I literally have no idea how you can still even possibly consider let alone believe this

irishbucsfan · 26-09-2013 01:02PM

Ultimately though today's statements put the pressure on the Unions now.

I would pay good money to be a fly on the wall in the FFR. I'd wager Blanco and Camou come to blows at least once. Seems to be a real civil war in there.

It also seems pretty certain there won't be clubs at the October 23rd meeting. So maybe that's the Celtic Unions chance to appeal to the English and French Unions properly.

irishbucsfan · 26-09-2013 01:04PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I literally have no idea how you can still even possibly consider let alone believe this

It is absolutely the truth. All evidence points to them being very happy to negotiate together.

I guess some people just need it not to be the case to help them sleep at night. But the original demands are STILL not even being considered (participation is, governance isn't). So how anyone can try to, as I said, rewrite history is unimaginable.

bilston · 26-09-2013 01:13PM

Todays statements suggest to me that the Celtic Unions are opening the door to entering into this new Champions Cup competiton. To be honest they mightn't have any choice.

Anyway I think we'll get there in the end. The ERC may be finished but I think we'll have a European competition next season which provided it's fair and not just run by the PRL I'm happy with. Supporters want to watch rugby not read about boardroom struggles.

Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

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