The holocaust happened

wes · 25-09-2013 02:19PM

Charlie Rock wrote: »

No doubt there will be elements within Israel that will do everything they can to prevent any rapprochement between Iran and the US.

To be fair there will be elements in the US, and Iran as well, who will be doing the exact same thing.

Elmer Blooker · 25-09-2013 03:02PM

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

That's crap and you know it, did the Swiss, the Swedes or any of the other Neutrals do any such thing?:mad:

Did the Swedes.......... ?

During the German invasion of the Soviet Union, Sweden allowed the Wehrmacht to use Swedish railways to transport (June–July 1941) the German 163rd Infantry Division along with howitzers, tanks and anti-aircraft weapons and associated ammunition, from Norway to Finland. German soldiers traveling on leave between Norway and Germany were allowed passage through Sweden — the so-called permittenttrafik. Iron ore was sold to Germany throughout the war.

GerB40 · 25-09-2013 04:29PM

FTA69 wrote: »

The vast majority of serious anti-Semitism throughout the history of the world occurred at the hands of Christians. There were countless massacres, expulsions, inquisitions, expropriations of property throughout Europe at various different intervals. In contrast to this they largely thrived in the Islamic world where they were often subjected to nothing more punitive than an extra tax (which all non-Muslims had to pay). In fact the first thing the Crusaders did after taking Jerusalem was massacre all the Jews who had lived peacefully in the city for centuries.

Islamic anti-Semitism has only taken a rabid form since the foundation of Israel really and lectures from the western world on this subject are a bit out of place to say the least.

You say lectures from the western world are a bit out of place because historically the west were real bästards to the Jews (which they were, no question). But not too long ago the western world were okay with slavery. By your reasoning, does that mean the western world can't be appalled by acts of slavery?
Just because our western ancestors treated the Jews abbhorently, that doesn't mean we can't be sickened by anti-semitism today.

Sunglasses Ron · 26-09-2013 07:40AM

Deleted User wrote: »

With regards to Ireland and Hitler -

I was in the Spanish Arch museum in Galway a while ago and they had a display all about this. Seemingly Lord Haw-Haw conducted a radio broadcast explaining how the Fuhrer had a love of horse racing and wanted to visit the Galway Races to watch it. The British army obviously took this to heart and lined the way to the Races with tank traps and other armaments. Crazy to think, really.

Since when did the British army have access to the free state during WWII to do this? It's been a while since I did History (best subject in school way back) but didn't we just allow the Navy access to a few "treaty ports" which we had booted them out of by the time the war occurred?

Corkfeen · 26-09-2013 08:33AM

Tony EH wrote: »

There's no "possibly" about it. An official apology was sent to Ireland for the bombing, which included words in Irish.

I believe Robert Fisk mentions it in his book, 'In Time of War'.

There's some debate on whether the British "bent" the X Gerat beams so that the pathfinding bombers would miss their targets, rather than a simple mistake in navigation.

Either way, what's pretty much certain is that Hitler absolutely didn't want Ireland coming into the war on Britain's side. That would have been a serious hadicap for the German war in the Atlantic.

There's also somewhat of a belief that England never wanted Ireland to join the war. As if we had joined, it would have made us a target for invasion.

Tony EH · 26-09-2013 10:45AM

If the powers in England had any "worry" about Ireland being invaded (or coming onto the German side), it was because it was a stepping stone to her shores.

But Britain was certainly in favour of Ireland coming in on her side as Irish ports would have shortened the Atlantic run. Plus, the radius of air cover would have been extended further out into the sea, enabling better coverage of the convoys in the western approaches and for the Mediterranean.

There was great resentment in Britain toward Ireland at having to hand back the Treaty Ports (Cobh, Casteltownbere and Lough Swilly) in the 30's.

FTA69 · 26-09-2013 11:13AM

GerB40 wrote: »

You say lectures from the western world are a bit out of place because historically the west were real bästards to the Jews (which they were, no question). But not too long ago the western world were okay with slavery. By your reasoning, does that mean the western world can't be appalled by acts of slavery?
Just because our western ancestors treated the Jews abbhorently, that doesn't mean we can't be sickened by anti-semitism today.

I'm not saying that people in the west don't have a right to point out anti-Semitism. What I am saying is that its quite prevalent to insinuate that rabid anti-Semitism is somehow something unique to Islam. At the moment there is widespread commentary from sections of the media that portray Islam as inherently intolerant to other religions and the atittude toward Jews in often held up as proof of this. My problem with that is that fundamentalist Chiristianity is equally intolerant of other faiths, can be just as crazy and in fact as a much, much worse record of anti-Semitism.

CruelCoin · 26-09-2013 11:16AM

wendell borton wrote: »

Maybe now Iran can move away from its posturing against Israel and play a productive part in a peace process in the middle east.

Will Israel do the same?

Wibbs · 26-09-2013 11:23AM

Seaneh wrote: »

I could equally say that having lived in an Ashkenazi neighbourhood that flat out racism towards anyone who wasn't "really" Jewish, whether they be Ethiopian Jews, Arab-Israelis (Christians and Muslims), African immigrants, european migrant workers or Asians, was so blatant it might as well have been part of their culture.

Racism knows no ethnic boundaries unfortunately. This was even the case in the early stages of Nazi persecution. Devout Jews were deeply suspicious of assimilated Jews.

FTA69 wrote: »

Total idiocy of the highest order and typical of the reactionary nature of the Catholic Church toward anyone perceived to be living outside their religious influence. A few of the Limerick Jews ended up in Cork I believe, where the Albert Road area was home to a few prominent families. Recently there was a street-league soccer team from around there called "Jewventas".

Interestingly the Limerick pogrom was an outlier, a one off in the history of Irish Jews. Many Jews ended up in Cork as you say, because the local non Jews extended help and lodging to them fleeing from the local Limerick madness. Ireland has one of the better records towards Jews of any European nation. Have a read up on Daniel O'Connel and Irish(and British) Jews. Fascinating stuff. *edit it went both ways too. During the famine Irish Jews threw themselves into fundraising and concrete help for the hungry.

Fratton Fred · 26-09-2013 11:46AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Racism knows no ethnic boundaries unfortunately. This was even the case in the early stages of Nazi persecution. Devout Jews were deeply suspicious of assimilated Jews.

Interestingly the Limerick pogrom was an outlier, a one off in the history of Irish Jews. Many Jews ended up in Cork as you say, because the local non Jews extended help and lodging to them fleeing from the local Limerick madness. Ireland has one of the better records towards Jews of any European nation. Have a read up on Daniel O'Connel and Irish(and British) Jews. Fascinating stuff. *edit it went both ways too. During the famine Irish Jews threw themselves into fundraising and concrete help for the hungry.

How many Jews were allowed to enter Ireland in 1939?

Ok, I know it isn't fair to single Ireland out, but the reluctance of a lot of states to open borders to Jews fleeing the Nazis is probably the best example of anti Semitic attitudes in Europe.

FTA69 · 26-09-2013 11:49AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

How many Jews were allowed to enter Ireland in 1939?

Ok, I know it isn't fair to single Ireland out, but the reluctance of a lot of states to open borders to Jews fleeing the Nazis is probably the best example of anti Semitic attitudes in Europe.

Eh, no mate. At the risk of pointing out the obvious I think it was the Nazi Holocaust itself which is the best example of European anti-Semitism.

Seaneh · 26-09-2013 11:53AM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

How many Jews were allowed to enter Ireland in 1939?

Ok, I know it isn't fair to single Ireland out, but the reluctance of a lot of states to open borders to Jews fleeing the Nazis is probably the best example of anti Semitic attitudes in Europe.

Ill think you'll find we didn't let many of any refugees from Europe come here, its hardly antisemitic when we are also turning away anyone else who came looking. Its not like Jews had a monopoly on displacement during world war II, we couldn't afford refugees, so we didn't accept any.

Fratton Fred · 26-09-2013 11:55AM

FTA69 wrote: »

Eh, no mate. At the risk of pointing out the obvious I think it was the Nazi Holocaust itself which is the best example of European anti-Semitism.

Of course, I meant anti semitism in general across Europe, not just Nazi occupied bits.

http://www.difp.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=2406

Fratton Fred · 26-09-2013 12:05PM

Seaneh wrote: »

Ill think you'll find we didn't let many of any refugees from Europe come here, its hardly antisemitic when we are also turning away anyone else who came looking. Its not like Jews had a monopoly on displacement during world war II, we couldn't afford refugees, so we didn't accept any.

Jews were flooding out of Germany and Austria long before the start of wwii. It was well known they were being openly persecuted in Germany, but the majority of Europe closed their borders to them.

GerB40 · 26-09-2013 12:07PM

FTA69 wrote: »

I'm not saying that people in the west don't have a right to point out anti-Semitism. What I am saying is that its quite prevalent to insinuate that rabid anti-Semitism is somehow something unique to Islam. At the moment there is widespread commentary from sections of the media that portray Islam as inherently intolerant to other religions and the atittude toward Jews in often held up as proof of this. My problem with that is that fundamentalist Chiristianity is equally intolerant of other faiths, can be just as crazy and in fact as a much, much worse record of anti-Semitism.

I agree with you completely. But the fact is that 'Christian' anti-semitism no longer leads to deaths. Right now, this moment, Islamic anti-semitism has people being killed. Fundamentalist Christian bigotry still definitely exists but that's no more than lunatics like the westboro baptist church picketing and being very unpleasant. Fundamentalist Islamic bigotry leads people to blow themselves up for jihad, shooting dead non Muslims and various terror attack globally.

I suppose my point is that some religious bigots are more dangerous (therefore relevant) than others. Sorry for rambling on..

FTA69 · 26-09-2013 12:07PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Of course, I meant anti semitism in general across Europe, not just Nazi occupied bits.

http://www.difp.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=2406

It was everywhere to be honest, permeated through most societies in Europe. In the Soviet Union they drew Stalin's ire for their distinctness and many Yiddish-speaking cultural figures and other such people were rounded up. Basically any Jew who didn't suboridnate that identity to their communism (as many Jews actually did) was a target. I'd say the USSR was worse than most Western European states at the time.

Seaneh · 26-09-2013 12:09PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Jews were flooding out of Germany and Austria long before the start of wwii. It was well known they were being openly persecuted in Germany, but the majority of Europe closed their borders to them.

So why single out Ireland?

isn't this around the same time in history that the British government are angling to export all (or most) of their native Jews to Palestine? Saying that Palestine was to be the "home of the Jews" was pretty much saying that Britain wasn't.

Wibbs · 26-09-2013 12:13PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Of course, I meant anti semitism in general across Europe, not just Nazi occupied bits.

http://www.difp.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=2406

Not just Europe, the US was very restrictive when it came to allowing transit for fleeing Jews. The UK was shipping them off to the British mandate in Palestine to beat the band, but had quotas attached. In the early days it was the nazis like Eichmann who were pushing for more Jews into the Mandate. He had links with Zionist groups to achieve this. It was of mutual benefit on the surface. Of course those Jews could only leave nazi occupied territory if they left all their cash behind and if they were poor, they had to be sponsored by richer Jews to get them out. Handy for the nazi exchequer that. :rolleyes: Of course soon the nazi idea of shipping them off to that neck of the woods was reconsidered as the idea of a Jewish state springing up was not attractive to them at all. The idea was then to ship them all over the place, then of course the "final solution" to the nazi problem came along.

It is one of the greatest historical ironies that without the nazis and their expulsion and then murderous policies throughout Europe, it's unlikely that Israel would exist today in the form it does.

Seaneh · 26-09-2013 12:13PM

GerB40 wrote: »

I agree with you completely. But the fact is that 'Christian' anti-semitism no longer leads to deaths. Right now, this moment, Islamic anti-semitism has people being killed. Fundamentalist Christian bigotry still definitely exists but that's no more than lunatics like the westboro baptist church picketing and being very unpleasant. Fundamentalist Islamic bigotry leads people to blow themselves up for jihad, shooting dead non Muslims and various terror attack globally.

I suppose my point is that some religious bigots are more dangerous (therefore relevant) than others. Sorry for rambling on..

in fairness, Zionist extremism (not Judaism, because Zionism is little to do with religious beliefs) has killed more muslims and Christians than Islamic extremism has killed Jews.

More Israelis have died from peanut allergies since 1948 than from attacks from Palestinian or Lebanese militants.

FTA69 · 26-09-2013 12:13PM

GerB40 wrote: »

Fundamentalist Christian bigotry still definitely exists but that's no more than lunatics like the westboro baptist church picketing and being very unpleasant

Or crackpots like Anders Breivik murdering 80 odd people in defence of cultural and Christian values. Or the people in parts of Africa and Carribean preaching that gay people be immolated with petrol (this is something worth looking up). Or the "Lord's Resistance Army" in Uganda hacking thousands of people to death.

Christian fundamentalism often has extremely negative impacts in society that can't be measured by death toll alone. In parts of America people are still being taught creationism in state schools. Even in Ireland we have politicians going on the radio suggesting gays go to a pastor to be "cured".

Fundamentalist Islamic bigotry leads people to blow themselves up for jihad, shooting dead non Muslims and various terror attack globally.

True enough, but unfortunately the actions of that minority are often portrayed as representative of Islam in general which definitely isn't the case. My only point is that malign religious influence isn't limited to the Islamic world.

Fratton Fred · 26-09-2013 12:16PM

Seaneh wrote: »

So why single out Ireland?

isn't this around the same time in history that the British government are angling to export all (or most) of their native Jews to Palestine? Saying that Palestine was to be the "home of the Jews" was pretty much saying that Britain wasn't.

Because we live in Ireland and is therefore a good example. Whilst Ireland wasn't particularly hostile to anyone, it wasn't particularly welcoming to Jews.

At the time Britain had agreed to take in a lot of Jewish children, but it, was done begrudgingly and strict limitations were put on the numbers

Wibbs · 26-09-2013 12:26PM

FTA69 wrote: »

I'd say the USSR was worse than most Western European states at the time.

I read an interview with a German Stuka pilot who served on the eastern front. He crashlanded and was captured. Nearly always a death sentence. Anyway while awaiting his fate in the Soviet stockade, who does he see only a Jewish bloke he knew from his hometown back in germany in Soviet uniform. This guy recognises him and they start to talk. The pilot knew his younger brother well as kids, so this now Soviet officer leaves the stockade gate open with a wink and yer man escapes. Interesingly the Jewish guy tells him they fled Germany to get away from the anti Jewish guff, but he soon found that in many ways the Soviets were worse in this respect. Of course this was all before the extermination camps came to light.

So yes while Germany and other Nazi states formulated a direct anti Jewish campaign, it didn't come from nothing and it was welcomed by many many people and nations in Europe, even occupied ones. See France for an example. Austrians after the anschluss were fervent persecutors of Jews in their midst, much worse than even in say Berlin. The open hostility, beatings and deaths and mass stealing of Jews even threw the nazi hierarchy a wobbler. Didn't look good in the international court of public opinion, plus it was stealing stuff they wanted to steal. The Dutch, the Danes and the Swedes were very unusual in that they helped their Jews.

Seaneh · 26-09-2013 12:26PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Because we live in Ireland and is therefore a good example. Whilst Ireland wasn't particularly hostile to anyone, it wasn't particularly welcoming to Jews.

At the time Britain had agreed to take in a lot of Jewish children, but it, was done begrudgingly and strict limitations were put on the numbers

ah right so it was just another chance to get a pointless dig in. Fair enough.

Fratton Fred · 26-09-2013 12:28PM

Seaneh wrote: »

ah right so it was just another chance to get a pointless dig in. Fair enough.

Time of the month?

Wibbs · 26-09-2013 12:30PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Because we live in Ireland and is therefore a good example. Whilst Ireland wasn't particularly hostile to anyone, it wasn't particularly welcoming to Jews.

That probably sums it up more than anything. Ireland was walking a tightrope of not being hostile or welcome to all and sundry except on the quiet as far as the Allies went(One example: German pilots who crashed were interred, whereas British pilots who crashed were clearly on "training missions" so were handed back).

Tony EH · 26-09-2013 12:44PM

FTA69 wrote: »

It was everywhere to be honest, permeated through most societies in Europe. In the Soviet Union they drew Stalin's ire for their distinctness and many Yiddish-speaking cultural figures and other such people were rounded up. Basically any Jew who didn't suboridnate that identity to their communism (as many Jews actually did) was a target. I'd say the USSR was worse than most Western European states at the time.

It was really only in the 50's that some Jews came under the suspicious eye of Stalin. But, by that time, I think it's fair to conclude that he'd become quite mad and was paranoid about anyone he didn't trust. But that wasn't "anti-semitic" in the accepted sense. Stalin didn't base his paranoia on ethnicity and there were always a healthy number of Jews involved in Communism. In fact, it's that that played a part in fuelling the anti-Semitic attititudes of the Ukraine and the Baltic states, when the Germans invaded in 1941. Many non-Communists viewed Communism as a "Jewish" thing. It wasn't just the Germans who looked upon it as such.

Even Winston Churchill remaked about it in such a manner.

GerB40 · 26-09-2013 12:48PM

FTA69 wrote: »

GerB40 wrote: »

Or crackpots like Anders Breivik murdering 80 odd people in defence of cultural and Christian values. Or the people in parts of Africa and Carribean preaching that gay people be immolated with petrol (this is something worth looking up). Or the "Lord's Resistance Army" in Uganda hacking thousands of people to death.

Christian fundamentalism often has extremely negative impacts in society that can't be measured by death toll alone. In parts of America people are still being taught creationism in state schools. Even in Ireland we have politicians going on the radio suggesting gays go to a pastor to be "cured".

True enough, but unfortunately the actions of that minority are often portrayed as representative of Islam in general which definitely isn't the case. My only point is that malign religious influence isn't limited to the Islamic world.

For some reason i forgot about those fúckin disgusting customs being practiced in Africa. I thought Anders Brevic was motivated by anti-islamic rather then pro-christian sentiments but I don't mind being corrected on that. What I reckon we can agree on is that religious fundamentalism is a major problem, a problem that doesn't look like being fixed any time soon..

old hippy · 26-09-2013 12:50PM

conorhal wrote: »

Yeah it happened, the ony problem with Iran is that they wish it would happen again.

Do "they" really? That must be awkward for all the Iranian Jews...

old hippy · 26-09-2013 12:51PM

Tony EH wrote: »

It was really only in the 50's that some Jews came under the suspicious eye of Stalin. But, by that time, I think it's fair to conclude that he'd become quite mad and was paranoid about anyone he didn't trust. But that wasn't "anti-semitic" in the accepted sense. Stalin didn't base his paranoia on ethnicity and there were always a healthy number of Jews involved in Communism. In fact, it's that that played a part in fuelling the anti-Semitic attititudes of the Ukraine and the Baltic states, when the Germans invaded in 1941. Many non-Communists viewed Communism as a "Jewish" thing. It wasn't just the Germans who looked upon it as such.

Even Winston Churchill remaked about it in such a manner.

Didn't Stalin create a Jewish state in the USSR? I seem to recall...

FTA69 · 26-09-2013 12:52PM

I'm not saying that the USSR as a project was anti-Semitic, rather that during Stalin's tenure there was a purge that was disproportionately harsh toward Jews who were explicity Jewish and didn't subordinate that identity to their communism. Thus they were deemed untrustworthy (along with everyone else.) I agree with you in the sense that it was more Stalin's doing than that of the USSR as a whole which was often quite progressive toward the issue. However, it is also worth noting that a virulent strain of anti-Semitism existed in Russia for a long time and the revolution didn't change that overnight, similarly it isn't hard to imagine that some Bolshevik Russians were of that tradition disposition.

The holocaust happened

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