Goshawks in Ireland:

Capercaille · 25-09-2013 08:13PM #1

I don't think falconers are losing enough Goshawks to have any impact on the population demographic. If that were the case we'd have breeding colonies of that dreadful american import the Harris Hawk.
Goshawk numbers are difficult to determine and we do suspect breeding in 3 to 5 counties but I can assure you there are no significant feral populations.

In the UK Goshawk were almost extinct in 1900. They are now found in large amounts of the UK. The UK population is derived (most likely) from escaped falconry birds. Goshawks in Europe are largely sedentary, although in the far North (Northern Russia and Scandinavia they are mostly summer visitors). The UK population is non-migratory. The Irish breeding population is derived from falconry birds (most likely). If Falconry birds of correct genetic stock are released into suitable locations and with birds already present it could be a great boost to the Irish population.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 25-09-2013 08:28PM

Captive bred birds could be an option to supply a programme to rebuild our Goshawk numbers. My point, quoted, was that there are not sustainable breeding populations in Ireland at present as a result of escaped/lost falconry birds. Despite what falconers say, their birds are not properly adapted to survival in the wild. Also, the numbers lost each year are insignificant in the overall scheme of things.
It's believed that what population of Goshawks Ireland has is as a result of post Norman falconries. Therefore it could be argued that they are not native, introduced by humans, and should not be repopulated. I'm neutral on that front.
Habitat is the major issue, as sufficient prey and suitable habitat must be lacking if their numbers continue to remain so low.
The genic stock may not be great among captive bred birds in Ireland alone - necessitating a not in surmountable breeding programme overseen by experts as opposed to just falconers.

Capercaille · 25-09-2013 08:45PM

Gatlin Defeated Dingo wrote: »

Captive bred birds could be an option to supply a programme to rebuild our Goshawk numbers. My point, quoted, was that there are not sustainable breeding populations in Ireland at present as a result of escaped/lost falconry birds. Despite what falconers say, their birds are not properly adapted to survival in the wild. Also, the numbers lost each year are insignificant in the overall scheme of things.

Habitat is the major issue, as sufficient prey and suitable habitat must be lacking if their numbers continue to remain so low.
The genic stock may not be great among captive bred birds in Ireland alone - necessitating a not in surmountable breeding programme overseen by experts as opposed to just falconers.

The fact that the UK population is derived from falconry birds (most people RSPB and falconers agree on this) would suggest that the Falconry birds are most likely well capable of surviving in the wild.

It's believed that what population of Goshawks Ireland has is as a result of post Norman falconries. Therefore it could be argued that they are not native, introduced by humans, and should not be repopulated. I'm neutral on that front.

As long as the birds are of European stock and from population that would be similar to the Goshawks that once inhabitated Ireland, I would have no problem with the birds being released.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 25-09-2013 08:51PM

No problem with me either but the current batch of captive bred would not have great genetic variety. I think the breeding of the birds for release needs to be more varied - all very doable.

Habitat?

I was involved in several BOP international projects during my previous existence, so forgive me if I get pedantic.

Capercaille · 25-09-2013 09:08PM

Gatlin Defeated Dingo wrote: »

No problem with me either but the current batch of captive bred would not have great genetic variety. I think the breeding of the birds for release needs to be more varied - all very doable.

Habitat?

In European range Goshawk prefer mature conifer woodland (including plantations).They prefer woodland with open areas, and for breeding a wood with an area over 100ha. We have plenty of horrible sikta spruce plantations in Ireland. It would be good to have some use for those forests. Goshawks feed on a wide variety of prey, especially birds. In Europe common prey items include corvids, woodpigeon, domestic doves which are abundant in this Country. Unfortunately they have a taste for pheasants. Especially the released kind, which are ill equipped for life in the wild and are thus easy prey. They are heavily persecuted across Europe as a result.

I was involved in several BOP international projects during my previous existence, so forgive me if I get pedantic.

I'm equally pedantic in these matters:D.

dodderangler · 25-09-2013 10:31PM

The thing about having wild goshawks is that they will be caught and used for falconry by lads.
A male northern goshawk will usually go between 1500 to 2000 and a female is around 2000 to 2500 euro.
If a person caught wind of goshawks breeding they would risk taking a chick to avoid forking out that kind of money.
I for one love the goshawk. Big giant sparrowhawk what's not to love.
I've been around a few when doing falconry an have seen them moving.
Some serious speed built into them. Corvids don't stand a chance against a well experienced female. Same goes for pheasant. And a wood pigeon has a much better chance but there is plenty caught. The fact of pheasants being around means gun clubs will not be happy and are already accusing buzzards of doing damage.
I'd be quite upset to hear of a poisoned goshawk

Birdnuts · 25-09-2013 11:13PM

Gatlin Defeated Dingo wrote: »

.
It's believed that what population of Goshawks Ireland has is as a result of post Norman falconries. Therefore it could be argued that they are not native, introduced by humans, and should not be repopulated. I'm neutral on that front.
.

Pretty conclusive evidence in the book "Irelands Lost Birds" by Gordon Darcy that Goshawks were native with remains found in NI,Dublin and Meath dating from the periods 7000-3500 BC. As for Goshawks currently in the ROI. The population must be very small as there is no confirmed records of breeding yet. In NI the last estimate was around 6 pairs

jellybaby21 · 26-09-2013 12:16AM

You just beat me to it Birdnuts,I was just about to refer to that book.

Srameen do you know anything about the stock breeders in this country have?If the stock wasn't good, can I ask why are falcobers all over europe flying Irish bred Goshawks?
What makes you think a falconers lost goshawk would not be properly adapted to live in the wild?

Dodder I dont know where you got your prices for goshawks from and no proper falconer would ever take a chick from a goshawk nest. I think you should think before you type.

I think one or two posting on this thread need to do a bit more research.

OpenYourEyes · 26-09-2013 12:38AM

jellybaby21 wrote: »

Srameen do you know anything about the stock breeders in this country have?If the stock wasn't good, can I ask why are falcobers all over europe flying Irish bred Goshawks?
What makes you think a falconers lost goshawk would not be properly adapted to live in the wild?

Falconers choose birds that will make good falconry birds. They don't pick birds based on how good they are at all of the many activities that a wild breeding bird of prey engages in throughout the year. Similarly, captive stock have been selectively bred (whether consciously or not) to be good falconry birds, not good wild birds.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 26-09-2013 09:14AM

jellybaby21 wrote: »

You just beat me to it Birdnuts,I was just about to refer to that book.

Srameen do you know anything about the stock breeders in this country have?If the stock wasn't good, can I ask why are falcobers all over europe flying Irish bred Goshawks?
What makes you think a falconers lost goshawk would not be properly adapted to live in the wild?

Dodder I dont know where you got your prices for goshawks from and no proper falconer would ever take a chick from a goshawk nest. I think you should think before you type.

I think one or two posting on this thread need to do a bit more research.

My apologies for not being clear earlier. I meant that any birds currently, or recorded in the past years are thought to be relics from falconry as the population recorded from 3000+bc went extinct following the deforestation that followed the last post-glaciation and the clearance of land by the fist human inhabitants of Ireland.

If we were to restrict BOP re-population because falconers put a value on birds, then we would never do anything. No proper falconer would buy wild bred birds and if they did we should have legislation in place to cover it. Dodderangler does falconry an injustice by his assertions.

As already said, the traits bred for by falconers are not those we should look for in birds we wish to use as a source of a wild breeding population.

Again apologies for my lack of clarity - I try to keep posts short because typing is not my thing and my offerings often suffer as a result.

I think we are all singing for on the same hymn book on this topic it's just we have to be realistic as to what birds could be used.

I last saw a Goshawk in the wild about 15 years ago and would dearly love to see more of them in our woods.

dodderangler · 26-09-2013 09:27AM

Care to explain the injustice I've done there pal??

OpenYourEyes · 26-09-2013 09:49AM

Gatlin Defeated Dingo wrote: »

If we were to restrict BOP re-population because falconers put a value on birds, then we would never do anything. No proper falconer would buy wild bred birds and if they did we should have legislation in place to cover it. Dodderangler does falconry an injustice by his assertions.

In my opinion, its a good thing that Dodderangler is willing to say that there are dodgy falconers who take wild raptors - because its true! And its good that other falconers are willing to admit it rather than denying it or not talking about it - similar to how its good to hear proper hunters condeming poachers - because those proper hunters/falconers can put pressure on the dodgy ones, they can report them, and they can be receptive to changes that are made to try and stop those dodgy falconers/hunters. Whereas if the good falconers/hunters were just sticking their heads in the sand and denying everything, then you get an "everyone VS the falconers/hunters" situation that leads to more problems when measures are taken to stomp out illegal practices. Proper falconers and proper hunters condemning the dodgy/criminal guys in their ranks benefits them and it benefits the wildlife.

That being said I disagree with Dodderangler that people taking wild birds is a problem that should stop possible re-introductions. If people taking wild birds is foreseen as an issue, the necessary measures should be taken to get rid of that problem (legislative and otherwise)!

Tiercel Dave · 26-09-2013 09:58AM

Of all the birds flown by falconers, the Goshawk is by a long mile the best candidate for surviving in the wild if lost. They are a skitty, sulky bird and the falconer/austringer has only a tentative 'hold' over them when hunting at the right weight. Like that little girl, when things go good, they're very, very good, but when they're bad, they're horrid.
There are reports of Peregrines returning to a falconers lure after six months of freedom, they are a very steady bird and 'hold' their training. Goshawks, on the other hand, loose their training very quickly and I would say to reclaim a Goshawk after 14 days at hack would be extremely fortuitous.
As to reintroduction, they are the bird most likely to come into direct conflict with the shooting fraternity. Released pheasants present no challenge to a Gos and they are intelligent enough to keep within the range of an easy food source.
@ dodderangler Prices quoted are a little over the top but it's a method used by breeders to ensure their birds go to falconers who appreciate them for what they are, the ultimate hunting 'machine'. 'The price of everything and the value of nothing' springs to mind. As to 'persons' taking eyasses from nests, they're criminals not falconers, and should be treated as such by everybody, but more especially so by us law abiding followers of the art. Dave

dodderangler · 26-09-2013 10:07AM

Not sure how many is given out every year but there are a handful of lads who can be issued to take a young chick off a monitored peregrine site.

OpenYourEyes · 26-09-2013 10:11AM

dodderangler wrote: »

Not sure how many is given out every year but there are a handful of lads who can be issued to take a young chick off a monitored peregrine site.

It's a small number every year, but still too many in my opinion. That system was set up years ago to get Irish falconers 'started off' with some Irish Peregrines that they could then develop a captive population/bloodline from, it was never meant to continue indefintely as it has.

jellybaby21 · 26-09-2013 10:26AM

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Falconers choose birds that will make good falconry birds. They don't pick birds based on how good they are at all of the many activities that a wild breeding bird of prey engages in throughout the year. Similarly, captive stock have been selectively bred (whether consciously or not) to be good falconry birds, not good wild birds.

I'm not saying falconry goshawks should be used to repopulate goshawks in Ireland.But falconry birds will adapt and and live and breed in the wild.Just look at the harris hawk that is breeding with a buzzard in england for example.Now im not saying thats a good thing but it just shows how raptors bred for falconry can adapt.So can you tell me what activities you think a falconry bird could not do in the wild?

OpenYourEyes · 26-09-2013 10:32AM

jellybaby21 wrote: »

I'm not saying falconry goshawks should be used to repopulate goshawks in Ireland.But falconry birds will adapt and and live and breed in the wild.Just look at the harris hawk that is breeding with a buzzard in england for example.Now im not saying thats a good thing but it just shows how raptors bred for falconry can adapt.So can you tell me what activities you think a falconry bird could not do in the wild?

Nobody has denied that some captive birds of prey could survive and breed in the wild, but broadly speaking its not true that all of them could/would and its not true that because captive birds of a particular species are highly saught after by falconers that it translates into being good birds in the wild.

And yes I could tell you what activities captive birds don't get to either experience or don't get enough practice at to ensure they could reliably do it when needed in the wild, but it sounds like you should take your own advice when dismissing other posters earlier and "do a bit more research".

Tiercel Dave · 26-09-2013 11:11AM

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

It's a small number every year, but still too many in my opinion. That system was set up years ago to get Irish falconers 'started off' with some Irish Peregrines that they could then develop a captive population/bloodline from, it was never meant to continue indefintely as it has.

'Five' Not sure that the granting of licences to 'Wild Take' was solely for purposes of breeding. It's almost impossible to get permission for a second bird. Peregrines take 4/5 yrs to even consider breeding, so as you can appreciate it's a long term undertaking.
One 'loophole' that should be addressed is that the bird should have to remain within the jurisdiction. I know of 'wild takes' that have left the country.
Suitability for release. Goshawks hold their fitness and can be flown irregularly with a degree of success. Peregrines have to be flown every day to achieve the high the level of fitness required to maintain their advantage in the skies. Their energy levels begin to wane after three or four unsuccessful stoops. Goshawks conserve their energy, they wait about, hide in trees observing prey beneath them before commiting to an attack . Not fair I know, but a very successful tactic. So they are eminently more adaptabe to 'living the wild life' after a captive period! Dave

OpenYourEyes · 26-09-2013 11:19AM

Tiercel Dave wrote: »

'Five' Not sure that the granting of licences to 'Wild Take' was solely for purposes of breeding. It's almost impossible to get permission for a second bird. Peregrines take 4/5 yrs to even consider breeding, so as you can appreciate it's a long term undertaking.
One 'loophole' that should be addressed is that the bird should have to remain within the jurisdiction. I know of 'wild takes' that have left the country.

From talking to people "in the know" so to speak, my impression is that the reasoning behind allowing it was to set up a captive Irish population and to maintain goodwill with falconers etc.

Yeah thats definitely something that should be addressed, although I'd say it'd be difficult to do so. The fact that the falconer has to identify a potentially suitable nest is problematic too - it results in a lot of disturbance at eyries every year from either the falconer or someone climbing on thier behalf checking the nest for eggs and/or chicks.

jellybaby21 · 26-09-2013 11:21AM

OpenYourEyes wrote: »

Nobody has denied that some captive birds of prey could survive and breed in the wild, but broadly speaking its not true that all of them could/would and its not true that because captive birds of a particular species are highly saught after by falconers that it translates into being good birds in the wild.

And yes I could tell you what activities captive birds don't get to either experience or don't get enough practice at to ensure they could reliably do it when needed in the wild, but it sounds like you should take your own advice when dismissing other posters earlier and "do a bit more research".

Can you show anywhere on the thread where someone said all captive bred birds could/would survive and breed in the wild?

When I was talking about Irish bred goshawks been highly saught after I was not talking about the specie.I was answering a post about the Irish breeders stock not been of high qualitY.

If you are talking about experience and practice at hunting?Then its the very same for wild bred birds.If they dont get enough practice at hunting then they dont make it through their first winter. How many juveniles of all spesies die in the first year?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 26-09-2013 11:23AM

jellybaby21 wrote: »

I'm not saying falconry goshawks should be used to repopulate goshawks in Ireland.But falconry birds will adapt and and live and breed in the wild.Just look at the harris hawk that is breeding with a buzzard in england for example.Now im not saying thats a good thing but it just shows how raptors bred for falconry can adapt.So can you tell me what activities you think a falconry bird could not do in the wild?

I don't want this to sound like an argument, as we are all here as wildlife lovers who broadly agree on this particular issue, but a couple of rare examples of falconry birds surviving in the wild does not set the rule. For many years I was brought, or alerted to, dead birds of prey only to find that they were lost falconry birds that had died of hunger. This is a fact and happened much more often than any birds that survived beyond their first few weeks in the wild.

@Dodderangler, the injustice was labelling criminals as falconers and falconers as criminal. I would never refer to ornithologists stealing bird's eggs, I would refer to criminals doing so. That was all - probably just the way the wording came across:)

jellybaby21 · 26-09-2013 11:31AM

Tiercel Dave wrote: »

'Five' Not sure that the granting of licences to 'Wild Take' was solely for purposes of breeding. It's almost impossible to get permission for a second bird. Peregrines take 4/5 yrs to even consider breeding, so as you can appreciate it's a long term undertaking.
One 'loophole' that should be addressed is that the bird should have to remain within the jurisdiction. I know of 'wild takes' that have left the country.
Suitability for release. Goshawks hold their fitness and can be flown irregularly with a degree of success. Peregrines have to be flown every day to achieve the high the level of fitness required to maintain their advantage in the skies. wane. Goshawks conserve their energy, they wait about, hide in trees observing prey beneath them before commiting to an attack . Not fair I know, but a very successful tactic. So they are eminently more adaptabe to 'living the wild life' after a captive period! Dave

Dave I could be wrong but the loophole you are talking about is been addressed.I think the NPWS are trying to make it so that the taken peregrine remains with the falconer that originally takes the bird.

jellybaby21 · 26-09-2013 11:47AM

Gatlin Defeated Dingo wrote: »

I don't want this to sound like an argument, as we are all here as wildlife lovers who broadly agree on this particular issue, but a couple of rare examples of falconry birds surviving in the wild does not set the rule. For many years I was brought, or alerted to, dead birds of prey only to find that they were lost falconry birds that had died of hunger. This is a fact and happened much more often than any birds that survived beyond their first few weeks in the wild.

@Dodderangler, the injustice was labelling criminals as falconers and falconers as criminal. I would never refer to ornithologists stealing bird's eggs, I would refer to criminals doing so. That was all - probably just the way the wording came across:)

We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

There are many types of birds used for different types of falconry.Birds used for displays as a rule have never been hunted so if lost dont know how to hunt so will die.But we are talking goshawks here and as a rule not many are used for displays.So these birds will be used for hunting and it doesnt take them long to pick it up.So in my mind any lost hunting goshawk will survive in the wild and if he/she could find a mate would breed.

Just a quick question,how many of the birds you got alerted to were goshawks?

Tiercel Dave · 26-09-2013 11:59AM

jellybaby21 wrote: »

Dave I could be wrong but the loophole you are talking about is been addressed.I think the NPWS are trying to make it so that the taken peregrine remains with the falconer that originally takes the bird.

@ jellybaby21 You could be correct there, it's easy enough to insert a clause on the A10 stating that the bird should remain within the jurisdiction. And there would be no objection from any right minded Irish falconer!
As to breeding, if granted a 'wild take' you are not allowed apply for the next three years so 'go figure that', as they say. To have two compatible Irish birds is difficult. Much better to grant the licence for breeding purposes and make sure that the appropiate set up is present, they don't breed like budgies. Dave

OpenYourEyes · 26-09-2013 12:00PM

jellybaby21 wrote: »

Can you show anywhere on the thread where someone said all captive bred birds could/would survive and breed in the wild?

When I was talking about Irish bred goshawks been highly saught after I was not talking about the specie.I was answering a post about the Irish breeders stock not been of high qualitY.

If you are talking about experience and practice at hunting?Then its the very same for wild bred birds.If they dont get enough practice at hunting then they dont make it through their first winter. How many juveniles of all spesies die in the first year?

I never said that anyone said all captive bred birds could/would survive and breed in the wild - so quit your argumentative tone, its not condusive to a healthy discussion. You implied that a subset of captive bred birds were similarly capable of surviving in the wild, with the fact that they are saught after by falconers in other countries as part of your reasoning. I was clarifying that captive bred birds, including the subset you referred to, are still greatly inferior to wild birds in terms of their ability to survive and reproduce.

I'm not just talking about experience and practice at hunting - that's just one part of the day to day life of a wild bird of prey - its obviously a very important part, but its not enough on its own. And I have no experience of falconry, but I'd suspect the hunting experience they get with a falconer is still much more limited than when they're living day-to-day in the wild. Think of it as analogous to a footballer doing lots of training (falconry bird) vs a player with lots of match practice (wild bird)

jellybaby21 · 26-09-2013 12:36PM

Sorry I dont think my tone is argumentative,this is a discussion with different views.I'm sorry if you took it as argumentative.

I never implied that they could survive in the wild because they are saught after by falconers.Again I was in reply to a post about the quality of the breediNG stock here in Ireland.

Yes hunting is only one thing but as you say a big part of surviving in the wild and the hunting they get with a falconer would be different but I wouldnt say limited.Hunting with a falconer will teach a goshawk all the skills it will need to hunt in the wild.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 26-09-2013 01:42PM

jellybaby21 wrote: »

We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

There are many types of birds used for different types of falconry.Birds used for displays as a rule have never been hunted so if lost dont know how to hunt so will die.But we are talking goshawks here and as a rule not many are used for displays.So these birds will be used for hunting and it doesnt take them long to pick it up.So in my mind any lost hunting goshawk will survive in the wild and if he/she could find a mate would breed.

Just a quick question,how many of the birds you got alerted to were goshawks?

Apologies for not getting straight back to you on this, as I had to contact a still active colleague since I am now retired. From 1995 to 2010 I experienced 6 ex falconry Goshawks dead. Impossible to tell how many escaped in my region in that period but the lack of live individuals suggests very few more than that.
I am not here to argue with you on this, however I will stand by my belief that falconry bred birds are not bred for any innate ability to survive in the wild but for appearance, docile manner, etc. Plus the fact that their gene pool is effectively limited. That in itself is not an insurmountable problem, but an issue that must be considered. I honestly don't think I have any more to say on this and was just expressing my opinion based on my personal experience in the wild and with BOP populations.

jellybaby21 · 26-09-2013 02:36PM

We all have an opinion and are entitled to have.But again sorry I have to disagree with you on some things.The docile manner of a goshawk is lost very quickly when left alone.Even when just left by a falconer to moult out in a pen.I think we will ever agree on this but thats ok.Falconers lost birds would never get the goshawk population to the leval we would like to see it anyway.

cd07 · 26-09-2013 03:58PM

I would love nothing more than to see a healthy wild population of Goshawks here in Ireland But as Tiercel Dave mentioned earlier they would be persecuted relentlessly by the usual suspects. They are the perfect killing machine and that would bring them into direct conflict with breeders of game birds. I personally would prefer not to have them here, rather than have them here and see them poisoned and shot, which lets face it, will definitely happen. Sorry to be so negative lads but thats the narrow minded country we live in.

dodderangler · 26-09-2013 05:14PM

cd07 wrote: »

I would love nothing more than to see a healthy wild population of Goshawks here in Ireland But as Tiercel Dave mentioned earlier they would be persecuted relentlessly by the usual suspects. They are the perfect killing machine and that would bring them into direct conflict with breeders of game birds. I personally would prefer not to have them here, rather than have them here and see them poisoned and shot, which lets face it, will definitely happen. Sorry to be so negative lads but thats the narrow minded country we live in.

No you are definately correct about that.
There is plenty out there who would shoot a bird of prey if giving the chance. We all have our ideas of who they are.
It's just the way it is and I hope anyone who ever seen anyone attempt to shoot a bop would report it

Capercaille · 26-09-2013 07:55PM

cd07 wrote: »

I would love nothing more than to see a healthy wild population of Goshawks here in Ireland But as Tiercel Dave mentioned earlier they would be persecuted relentlessly by the usual suspects. They are the perfect killing machine and that would bring them into direct conflict with breeders of game birds. I personally would prefer not to have them here, rather than have them here and see them poisoned and shot, which lets face it, will definitely happen. Sorry to be so negative lads but thats the narrow minded country we live in.

In the UK goshawks have a healthy population, even with large numbers of shooting estate where persecution of raptors is rampant. they don't consume large amounts of carrion so poisoning is less of a problem. fortunately in Ireland we lack many large shooting estates.

Goshawks in Ireland:

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