The holocaust happened

Elbaston · 25-09-2013 11:52AM

TeddyTedson wrote: »

Quite possibly, I'm not entirely sure.

Weird that he had a bit of a soft spot for the Irish.

Well he did have an Irish cousin.

So I think that pretty much settles it then.

Guilty as charged.

Rubeter · 25-09-2013 12:00PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

It seems that it would have been more appropriate to refrain from sending condolences under the circumstances. Neutral or not.

As Sunglasses Ron said first there was the diplomatic side (they live in a different world to the rest of us) but the main thing, I feel anyway, was the full horror of what the regime had done wasn't fully clear at the time of Adolf's death and how much of what was known by the Allied powers that would have been shared with Dev's government is questionable, WC would have had other things on his mind besides sharing info with the likes of Ireland.

You can't judge the people then in the light of what you know today, it all has to be put into context.

GerB40 · 25-09-2013 12:05PM

Sunglasses Ron wrote: »

As a technically neutral state (although in practice we leaned more towards helping the US) and considering at the time he was not a convicted war criminal it would be customary for us to do so for a serving leader from a nearby country.

It was diplomatically right but morally wrong to mourn Hitlers death. For a head of state (or any other politician for that matter) diplomacy comes before morality. There are some exceptions of course.

Tony EH · 25-09-2013 12:16PM

Jonny7 wrote: »

Polls show 40+ % of people in certain Middle Eastern countries do not believe the Holocaust happened (not surprising considering the attitude toward Jews in the region)

There are over 350 million people living in the Middle East.

I'd like to see the company who took that poll, cos that's some great work done there, especially when one takes into account such a binary opinon.

What a massive undertaking.

Tony EH · 25-09-2013 12:22PM

TeddyTedson wrote: »

Quite possibly, I'm not entirely sure.

Weird that he had a bit of a soft spot for the Irish.

There's no "possibly" about it. An official apology was sent to Ireland for the bombing, which included words in Irish.

I believe Robert Fisk mentions it in his book, 'In Time of War'.

There's some debate on whether the British "bent" the X Gerat beams so that the pathfinding bombers would miss their targets, rather than a simple mistake in navigation.

Either way, what's pretty much certain is that Hitler absolutely didn't want Ireland coming into the war on Britain's side. That would have been a serious hadicap for the German war in the Atlantic.

Sunglasses Ron · 25-09-2013 12:22PM

GerB40 wrote: »

It was diplomatically right but morally wrong to mourn Hitlers death. For a head of state (or any other politician for that matter) diplomacy comes before morality. There are some exceptions of course.

In truth all that was confirmed at the time was that Hitler had invaded multiple countries without international approval. So did Blair and Bush, hell we even helped move their troops and weapons for that one! The extent and personal involvement of the Nazi top brass in widespread deliberate genocide only became clear after the war, and therefore not paying respects to an ambassador you had not already kicked out is, if sticking to the rule book, the most standard response available. Flags at half mast and a minute's silence, now THAT would have been over the top

Jonny7 · 25-09-2013 12:30PM

Tony EH wrote: »

There are over 350 million people living in the Middle East.

I'd like to see the company who took that poll, cos that's some great work done there, especially when one takes into account such a binary opinon.

What a massive undertaking.

Which is why I wrote "certain" countries

e.g. 40.5% of Israeli Arabs
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/survey-finds-nearly-half-of-israeli-arabs-deny-holocaust-1.276206

Hamas pretty much openly deny the Holocaust and do not allow the schools to teach about it

Here's one of Ahmadinejad's infamous comments

"They have fabricated a legend, under the name Massacre of the Jews, and they hold it higher than God himself, religion itself and the prophets themselves ... If somebody in their country questions God, nobody says anything, but if somebody denies the myth of the massacre of Jews, the Zionist loudspeakers and the governments in the pay of Zionism will start to scream."

He was probably just speaking about how great Zionism was and what a terrible thing the holocaust was - and was mistranslated yet again

keeponhurling · 25-09-2013 12:31PM

Whether the holocaust happened or not should be only a topic of interest to historians.

Current political policy for any country or group should not be dictated by something that happened 70 odd years ago.

Just my opinion.

conorhal · 25-09-2013 12:31PM

GerB40 wrote: »

It was diplomatically right but morally wrong to mourn Hitlers death. For a head of state (or any other politician for that matter) diplomacy comes before morality. There are some exceptions of course.

It was actually done to piss of the Americans. Or more specifically, the American ambassador to Ireland at the time David Gray, who was furious that Ireland remained determinedly neutral and has no understanding of the geo-politics of the nation and it's complex relationship with it's former colonial masters across the water so he was prone to some rather undiplomatic outbursts about 'Irish cowardice'.
He and Dev had a constant war of words on the issue. When Germany surrendered, Gray duly informed Dev that he was sending his MPs to ransack the German embassy for intelligence, but he was told in no uncertian terms that a foreign embassy on Irish soil was not within his remit to do anything with. He had a strop, and Dev in a pique of anger descided to sign a condolence book for Hitler to stick two fingers up at Gray and what he percieved as his imperialist attitude.
It was a stupid thing to do, as most things done in anger are, but a little context matters.

Tony EH · 25-09-2013 12:32PM

Jonny7 wrote: »

Which is why I wrote "certain" countries

e.g. 40.5% of Israeli Arabs
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/survey-finds-nearly-half-of-israeli-arabs-deny-holocaust-1.276206

Hamas pretty much openly deny the Holocaust and do not allow the schools to teach about it

Here's one of Ahmadinejad's infamous comments

"They have fabricated a legend, under the name Massacre of the Jews, and they hold it higher than God himself, religion itself and the prophets themselves ... If somebody in their country questions God, nobody says anything, but if somebody denies the myth of the massacre of Jews, the Zionist loudspeakers and the governments in the pay of Zionism will start to scream."

He was probably just speaking about how great Zionism was and what a terrible thing the holocaust was - and was mistranslated yet again

Again, who took the poll. What questions were asked. How was it framed and how large a demographic was it.

It's a far too sweeping generalisation.

Tony EH · 25-09-2013 12:38PM

keeponhurling wrote: »

Whether the holocaust happened or not should be only a topic of interest to historians.

Current political policy for any country or group should not be dictated by something that happened 70 odd years ago.

Just my opinion.

Unfortunately, the political fallout of the holocaust is still being felt today, by the people of Palestine, who have been under the heel of Israeli boots for over 40 odd years.

COYW · 25-09-2013 12:42PM

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

He has no real power, Ayatollah Khameini remains the real ruler of Iran

Rouhani has been publicly endorsed by Ayatollah Khamenei. That gives him real power. This is a really positive statement in relations between the two countries. The Palestinians won't take too kindly to his remarks.

TeddyTedson wrote: »

Sure Hitler couldn't of been that bad, sure our Taoiseach signed the book of condolences after his death.

Another proud notch on the bed of Irish republicanism!

Jonny7 wrote: »

Polls show 40+ % of people in certain Middle Eastern countries do not believe the Holocaust happened (not surprising considering the attitude toward Jews in the region)

Not surprised. There is a series on BBC2 at the moment where Simon Schama is exploring the history of the Jews over the past 3000 years. The persecution that those people have suffered, most of it at the hands of Christianity, throughout time, is staggering. They are a remarkable bunch of people.

Elmer Blooker · 25-09-2013 01:08PM

wendell borton wrote: »

Iranian President Hassan Rouhani has called the holocaust a crime against jews which is a big change from Ahmadinejad who called it a myth.

http://www.virginmedia.com/sport/football/galleries/footy-lookalikes.php

Jonny7 · 25-09-2013 01:09PM

Tony EH wrote: »

Again, who took the poll. What questions were asked. How was it framed and how large a demographic was it.

It's a far too sweeping generalisation.

I put a link up.

Education on the subject is not exactly high (read non-existent) in some of these countries, not to mention pretty the rampant antisemitism which plays a large part from the top down (43% of Egyptians in one poll said Israel was behind the 911 attacks), empathy from those in the region who recognise the Holocaust isn't exactly high either

FTA69 · 25-09-2013 01:09PM

COYW wrote: »

Not surprised. There is a series on BBC2 at the moment where Simon Schama is exploring the history of the Jews over the past 3000 years. The persecution that those people have suffered, most of it at the hands of Christianity, throughout time, is staggering. They are a remarkable bunch of people.

The vast majority of serious anti-Semitism throughout the history of the world occurred at the hands of Christians. There were countless massacres, expulsions, inquisitions, expropriations of property throughout Europe at various different intervals. In contrast to this they largely thrived in the Islamic world where they were often subjected to nothing more punitive than an extra tax (which all non-Muslims had to pay). In fact the first thing the Crusaders did after taking Jerusalem was massacre all the Jews who had lived peacefully in the city for centuries.

Islamic anti-Semitism has only taken a rabid form since the foundation of Israel really and lectures from the western world on this subject are a bit out of place to say the least.

My name is URL · 25-09-2013 01:18PM

COYW wrote: »

Not surprised. There is a series on BBC2 at the moment where Simon Schama is exploring the history of the Jews over the past 3000 years. The persecution that those people have suffered, most of it at the hands of Christianity, throughout time, is staggering. They are a remarkable bunch of people.

They're no more 'remarkable' than any other group of people. Countless ethnicities have been subjected to terrible persecution and abuses throughout history. Look at what happened on this island over the course of 1200 odd years. It's mildly ironic that whenever people mention our own history of persecution they'll be called bitter, or told to 'get over it' and met with sneering jibes of 'boo-hoo 800 years' etc.. but someone dares to suggest the same regarding history of persecution against the Jewish people and they're instantly villainised, called crackpots, deniers or neo-nazis.

Funny how people choose which parts of history to place on the pedestal.

25-09-2013 01:24PM

With regards to Ireland and Hitler -

I was in the Spanish Arch museum in Galway a while ago and they had a display all about this. Seemingly Lord Haw-Haw conducted a radio broadcast explaining how the Fuhrer had a love of horse racing and wanted to visit the Galway Races to watch it. The British army obviously took this to heart and lined the way to the Races with tank traps and other armaments. Crazy to think, really.

--Kaiser-- · 25-09-2013 01:26PM

FTA69 wrote: »

The vast majority of serious anti-Semitism throughout the history of the world occurred at the hands of Christians. There were countless massacres, expulsions, inquisitions, expropriations of property throughout Europe at various different intervals. In contrast to this they largely thrived in the Islamic world where they were often subjected to nothing more punitive than an extra tax (which all non-Muslims had to pay). In fact the first thing the Crusaders did after taking Jerusalem was massacre all the Jews who had lived peacefully in the city for centuries.

Islamic anti-Semitism has only taken a rabid form since the foundation of Israel really and lectures from the western world on this subject are a bit out of place to say the least.

+1
Anti-semitism was a feature of Christian civilization for hundreds of years. Jews were forced to live in ghettos in many countries. They were also preventing from owning land and practicing most professions (law and banking were allowed, explaining their prolificity in those worlds). Closer to home, at the beginning of the 20th century there was a pogrom of Jews in Limerick

COYW · 25-09-2013 01:27PM

My name is URL wrote: »

They're no more 'remarkable' than any other group of people. Countless ethnicities have been subjected to terrible persecution and abuses throughout history. Look at what happened on this island over the course of 1200 odd years. It's mildly ironic that whenever people mention our own history of persecution they'll be called bitter, or told to 'get over it' and met with sneering jibes of 'boo-hoo 800 years' etc.. but someone dares to suggest the same regarding history of persecution against the Jewish people and they're instantly villainised, called crackpots, deniers or neo-nazis.

Funny how people choose which parts of history to place on the pedestal.

I recommend that you watch the series in question. You might change your opinion. The 800 years on this island were nothing compared to the horrors they were subjected to throughout their history.

COYW · 25-09-2013 01:38PM

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

Jews were forced to live in ghettos in many countries. They were also preventing from owning land and practicing most professions (law and banking were allowed, explaining their prolificity in those worlds).

That is where the word 'ghetto' came from. In the early 1500s the Jews were forced to leave Spain, they were being murdered as part of the 'Holy war' and they found refuge in Venice. The authorities compelled them to live in a particular quarter of the city, which became known as the ghetto.

Tony EH · 25-09-2013 01:45PM

Jonny7 wrote: »

I put a link up.

Education on the subject is not exactly high (read non-existent) in some of these countries, not to mention pretty the rampant antisemitism which plays a large part from the top down (43% of Egyptians in one poll said Israel was behind the 911 attacks), empathy from those in the region who recognise the Holocaust isn't exactly high either

And in that link (from Haaratz), it says that just 700 people were polled. It didn't state the phrasing of the question, or how the answers were generated.

It also states that a lot of the "denial" would be more of a protest, rather than disbelief.

In essence, such polls are largely bunkum and politically motivated, rather than of any real scientific use.

Either way, it's a HUGE leap from your original statement of "40+% of some Middle Eastern countries..."

Spunge · 25-09-2013 01:48PM

The old reverse psychology switcheroo, not falling for it.

IvySlayer · 25-09-2013 01:52PM

Iran is democratic?

The President of Irans powers are a joke.

Seaneh · 25-09-2013 01:54PM

IvySlayer wrote: »

Iran is democratic?

The President of Irans powers are a joke.

It was a progressive, secular democratic county once, until the UK and US decided they didn't line the sou d of that.

biko · 25-09-2013 01:59PM

wes wrote: »

So it looks like nothing needs to be said at all for some people to make up there minds about Iran.

Indeed, I was too hasty there. Israel/Iran relations was pretty good 50 years ago.
Lately though the relations has cooled and either side may, or may not, be prone to have a go at the other. This whole mess in Syria isn't helping at all. Also Iran has close ties to Lebanon and Hebollah, not the best mates of Israel as you know.
But Iranians are Persians, not Arabs, and they are mainly Shi'a, not Sunni. This means they won't just follow suit when the others in the region call up.

Karl Stein · 25-09-2013 02:00PM

No doubt there will be elements within Israel that will do everything they can to prevent any rapprochement between Iran and the US.

FTA69 · 25-09-2013 02:02PM

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

+1
Closer to home, at the beginning of the 20th century there was a pogrom of Jews in Limerick

Total idiocy of the highest order and typical of the reactionary nature of the Catholic Church toward anyone perceived to be living outside their religious influence. A few of the Limerick Jews ended up in Cork I believe, where the Albert Road area was home to a few prominent families. Recently there was a street-league soccer team from around there called "Jewventas".

Jonny7 · 25-09-2013 02:12PM

Tony EH wrote: »

And in that link (from Haaratz), it says that just 700 people were polled. It didn't state the phrasing of the question, or how the answers were generated.

It also states that a lot of the "denial" would be more of a protest, rather than disbelief.

In essence, such polls are largely bunkum and politically motivated, rather than of any real scientific use.

Either way, it's a HUGE leap from your original statement of "40+% of some Middle Eastern countries..."

It's a poll, take it or leave it.

I don't find it the slightest bit surprising having lived in a Muslim neighbourhood for years and having many Middle Eastern colleagues

The overwhelming majority from countries like Egypt, Jordan, etc are anti-Semitic, it's practically a part of their culture

Tony EH · 25-09-2013 02:14PM

Considering its make up, I'll happily leave it.

It's worthless.

Seaneh · 25-09-2013 02:19PM

Jonny7 wrote: »

It's a poll, take it or leave it.

I don't find it the slightest bit surprising having lived in a Muslim neighbourhood for years and having many Middle Eastern colleagues

The overwhelming majority from countries like Egypt, Jordan, etc are anti-Semitic, it's practically a part of their culture

I could equally say that having lived in an Ashkenazi neighbourhood that flat out racism towards anyone who wasn't "really" Jewish, whether they be Ethiopian Jews, Arab-Israelis (Christians and Muslims), African immigrants, european migrant workers or Asians, was so blatant it might as well have been part of their culture.

The holocaust happened

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