Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

McCBrian · 25-09-2013 12:06AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Let's start with this one.

If the Celtic Unions care about Italian rugby then why do they charge them 3 million euro each year to take part in the Rabo Pro 12 while giving them none of the sponsorship money from the tournament and none of the existing tv money? (including the new Sky deal I believe).

FIR paid the fee as has already pointed out to you as they thought it beneficail for 2 teams to be part of the Rabo it as a strategic decision which has paid off for the Italians in beating France and Ireland in the 6N last year and getting within 7pts of England at Twickenham

You are aware FIR have negotiated a TV deal to show Rabo rugby (which they will keep) They do receive a % of the sponsorship money so you are incorrect there.

The Sky deal is for Sky UK and Ireland they got the UK and Ireland deal to show Welsh/Irish/Scottish games, and Italian terrestial/cable/Sky Italia can decide to cover the Italian home games and sell on the residual rights to TG4/RTE/S4C/BBC Alba/BBC Wales etc

irishbucsfan · 25-09-2013 12:19AM

McCBrian wrote: »

FIR paid the fee as has already pointed out to you as they thought it beneficail for 2 teams to be part of the Rabo it as a strategic decision which has paid off for the Italians in beating France and Ireland in the 6N last year and getting within 7pts of England at Twickenham

You are aware FIR have negotiated a TV deal to show Rabo rugby (which they will keep) They do receive a % of the sponsorship money so you are incorrect there.

The Sky deal is for Sky UK and Ireland they got the UK and Ireland deal to show Welsh/Irish/Scottish games, and Italian terrestial/cable/Sky Italia can decide to cover the Italian home games and sell on the residual rights to TG4/RTE/S4C/BBC Alba/BBC Wales etc

None of this explains why the Unions should charge that much money.

According to that Scotsman article they don't get the sponsorship money.

Interesting how the Celtic unions believe in central pot for tv rights in Europe but not the Rabo!

ArmaniJeanss · 25-09-2013 12:19AM

McCBrian wrote: »

FIR paid the fee as has already pointed out to you as they thought it beneficail for 2 teams to be part of the Rabo it as a strategic decision which has paid off for the Italians in beating France and Ireland in the 6N last year and getting within 7pts of England at Twickenham

I don't get it, why was there a fee in the first place for them to have to decide to pay or not?
Whether it was beneficial or not for them to pay it is beside the point surely - it just seems obscene that they had to pay to enter.

Phonehead · 25-09-2013 12:20AM

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I don't get it, why was there a fee in the first place for them to decide to pay? Whether it was a beneficial or not for them to pay it is beside the point surely - it just seems obscene that they had to pay to enter.

It I presume was paid because of the costs associated with travelling to Italy to play. Far be it from me to add some sense into the thinking around it because the money grab aspect sounds nicer...

irishbucsfan · 25-09-2013 12:21AM

Phonehead wrote: »

Once again you ignore the HUGE fact that the English Business Owners want Control and the money printing machine that goes along with it.... how you fail to see this is the main issue is beyond me

No I see it. You ignored the actual point of the post though.

They don't want full control, they want control based on participation because theyre tired of 26 teams being outvoted by 12, 2 to 1.

irishbucsfan · 25-09-2013 12:24AM

Phonehead wrote: »

It I presume was paid because of the costs associated with travelling to Italy to play. Far be it from me to add some sense into the thinking around it because the money grab aspect sounds nicer...

3 million euro

ArmaniJeanss · 25-09-2013 12:27AM

Phonehead wrote: »

It I presume was paid because of the costs associated with travelling to Italy to play. Far be it from me to add some sense into the thinking around it because the money grab aspect sounds nicer...

Each Italian team makes 10 away trips to a Celtic Nation, 20 trips in total.
Each Celtic Nation team makes 2 away trips to Italy, again 20 trips in total.

Italians have to pay €3M. Hmmmm, not sure thats adding as much sense as you think.

McCBrian · 25-09-2013 12:30AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No the English absolutely do not want to do the same.

The English AND French want a competition where everyone receives the same amount from the pot but where qualification is by merit from the respective 3 leagues in Europe. If the Italians aren't strong enough to qualify for the top competition then they will play in the 2nd competition and receive whatever funding goes along with that, and that is the level they should be playing at if they can't qualify on their own merits anyway. They will probably receive less than they do now, but not nearly the amount that they are charged every year by Celtic nations.

I have never said that PRL are good while the Unions are bad (I think they're effectively the same). If you're going top say that again, I'd like you to point to a quote or something along those lines.

Lets stop referring it as the English/French
It is PRL who are refusing to negotiate as they have signed the deal with BT and are the ones are constrained by that deal and therefore are not in a position to particiate in meaningfull negotiations.
The stalling tactics are only from one party as they have no interest in reaching a solution as their PRL's televiusal deal is sown into their fabric. BT or nothing

Phonehead · 25-09-2013 12:31AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

3 million euro

3 million Euro into 3 unions/10 teams.... Ya a huge windfall there! an incentive was required when the Italians came knocking... Find another drum to beat or maybe the kind hearted souls in the Premier League want to let the Italians in.

irishbucsfan · 25-09-2013 12:31AM

Can you imagine the English and French gave the Celtic Nations none of their tv deal and charged them to enter a competition?

irishbucsfan · 25-09-2013 12:32AM

McCBrian wrote: »

Lets stop referring it as the English/French
It is PRL who are refusing to negotiate as they have signed the deal with BT and are the ones are constrained by that deal and therefore are not in a position to particiate in meaningfull negotiations.
The stalling tactics are only from one party as they have no interest in reaching a solution as their PRL's televiusal deal is sown into their fabric. BT or nothing

LNR are refusing to negotiate. They will have no part in the ERC.

So its not just PRL

Phonehead · 25-09-2013 12:32AM

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Each Italian team makes 10 away trips to a Celtic Nation, 20 trips in total.
Each Celtic Nation team makes 2 away trips to Italy, again 20 trips in total.

Italians have to pay €3M. Hmmmm, not sure thats adding as much sense as you think.

There was no need for them to let the Italians in. It was an incentive

Phonehead · 25-09-2013 12:34AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Can you imagine the English and French gave the Celtic Nations none of their tv deal and charged them to enter a competition?

As has already been discussed the Italians control the rights to their own games. I love how you are trying to make this about the Pro12... back on topic and tell me why no competition is good for the English and doesn't result in big losses for operating businesses:D

irishbucsfan · 25-09-2013 12:35AM

Phonehead wrote: »

There was no need for them to let the Italians in. It was an incentive

So letting them into the Rabo was not for the development of rugby, but just a financially lucrative deal?

Phonehead · 25-09-2013 12:38AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So letting them into the Rabo was not for the development of rugby, but just a financially lucrative deal?

Once again back on topic please, I'm trying to debate the European situation but I suspect you prefer to drag into into a debate about something else.

irishbucsfan · 25-09-2013 12:42AM

Phonehead wrote: »

Once again back on topic please, I'm trying to debate the European situation but I suspect you prefer to drag into into a debate about something else.

But you said before that the Unions should control Europe because they are developing European rugby. Now you've said they aren't.

So then, what is wrong with splitting governance along the lines of participation, 33% to each league? Ending this current situation where 12 participants can outvote 26 participants 2 to 1?

Phonehead · 25-09-2013 12:53AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

But you said before that the Unions should control Europe because they are developing European rugby. Now you've said they aren't.

So then, what is wrong with splitting governance along the lines of participation, 33% to each league? Ending this current situation where 12 participants can outvote 26 participants 2 to 1?

When did I say they weren't???? sorry you are making no sense! I said the Unions in their own pursuit of self interest are by default better for European Rugby because 4 Unions can't have a competition on their own. Obviously from purely democratic standpoint yes let the private clubs with self interest and profits as their primary drivers (not rugby development) control it... but believe me it would not be good for rugby. For you as an English Premiership fan it may be great getting more cash but don't for one second try to sell this as good for Italy or Scotland. Frankly I want the English Clubs to have no competition next year, the backlash from BT and Sky will no doubt put some manners on these businesses.

irishbucsfan · 25-09-2013 12:58AM

Phonehead wrote: »

When did I say they weren't???? sorrymaking no sense! I said the Unions in their own pursuit of self interest are by default better for European Rugby because 4 Unions can't have a competition on their own. Obviously from purely democratic standpoint yes let the private clubs with self interest and profits as their primary drivers (not rugby development) control it... but believe me it would not be good for rugby. For you as an English Premiership fan it may be great getting more cash but don't for one second try to sell this as good for Italy or Scotland

I'm not an English Premiership fan. I'm a Leinster fan. I just live and play in England.

Self interest and profit motivated the Unions as well clearly as youve shown. So rather than an unfair system dominated by one self interested group of aligned national unions, why not a balanced system where each participant has the equal amount of control?

McCBrian · 25-09-2013 01:02AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

LNR are refusing to negotiate. They will have no part in the ERC.

So its not just PRL

Do not the voting rights go back to FFR and RFU if LNR/PRL do not attend the meeting.
But is does not make any difference as the ERC 2/2/2/2/1/1 10 on the affermative outranks the 2 absteenees

FFR have told LNR that they will not approve an Anglo/Franco competion so how does that stack up with the RCC announcing an international tournamennt that involves?

irishbucsfan · 25-09-2013 01:07AM

McCBrian wrote: »

Do not the voting rights go back to FFR and RFU if LNR/PRL do not attend the meeting.
But is does not make any difference as the ERC 2/2/2/2/1/1 10 on the affermative outranks the 2 absteenees

FFR have told LNR that they will not approve an Anglo/Franco competion so how does that stack up with the RCC announcing an international tournamennt that involves?

So what you're saying is that FFR and RFU will sign a new accord against the will of the clubs? Then what happens?

McCBrian · 25-09-2013 01:09AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'm not an English Premiership fan. I'm a Leinster fan. I just live and play in England.

Self interest and profit motivated the Unions as well clearly as youve shown. So rather than an unfair system dominated by one self interested group of aligned national unions, why not a balanced system where each participant has the equal amount of control?

Signiining out for the night. But will laugh myself silly at the above as it is totally wrong on so many levels :eek:

Phonehead · 25-09-2013 01:10AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'm not an English Premiership fan. I'm a Leinster fan. I just live and play in England.

Self interest and profit motivated the Unions as well clearly as youve shown. So rather than an unfair system dominated by one self interested group of aligned national unions, why not a balanced system where each participant has the equal amount of control?

Yes the Unions of course are self interested but their self interest is in the survival of professional rugby in their countries while the English and to a lesser extent the French care about profits for their owners! While self interest is clearly demonstrated as a key motivator, there is a huge difference in the ultimate driver of this self interest. I'm not sure you fully grasp what's at stake here in regards Irish rugby or if you have defended your initial view so strongly that you just can't admit maybe just maybe the Premiership might be in the wrong here.

McCBrian · 25-09-2013 01:11AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So what you're saying is that FFR and RFU will sign a new accord against the will of the clubs? Then what happens?

No read the actual post

irishbucsfan · 25-09-2013 01:13AM

Phonehead wrote: »

Yes the Unions of course are self interested but their self interest is in the survival of professional rugby in their countries while the English and to a lesser extent the French care about profits for their owners! While self interest is clearly demonstrated as a key motivator, there is a huge difference in the ultimate driver of this self interest. I'm not sure you fully grasp what's at stake here in regards Irish rugby or if you have defended your initial view so strongly that you just can't admit maybe just maybe the Premiership might be in the wrong here.

So are you saying that profeasional rugby clubs are not motivated by the survival of professional rugby in their own countries? Even if that wasn't utterly ridiculous, what relevance does it have to the ERC?

I don't think you understand what is at stake at all actually and you could do with looking up the proposals. What governance power does the ERC have over the sport of rugby in individual domestic countries for example? The answer is none.

irishbucsfan · 25-09-2013 01:15AM

McCBrian wrote: »

No read the actual post

I did. Surely by listing the number of votes present you were suggesting the Unions would proceed without them?

25-09-2013 01:17AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Of course there are the hystericals who believe this will destroy rugby as we know it and will lead to us all living in some sort of post apocalyptic wasteland.

These "hystericals" tend to be those who understand sporting organisations and the way power relationships work within them.

Or, you know, those who have read a history book at least once.

It's odd that you have absolutely no reservations about handing the reigns over to England and France. Most sensible people would find the idea of giving the english premiership the same vote as Ireland, Italy, Scotland, and Wales combined troubling.

I'm glad you have a crystal ball and are so wonderfully assured that no negative consequences will come of that.

Phonehead · 25-09-2013 01:19AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

So are you saying that profeasional rugby clubs are not motivated by the survival of professional rugby in their own countries? Even if that wasn't utterly ridiculous, what relevance does it have to the ERC?

I don't think you understand what is at stake at all actually and you could do with looking up the proposals. What governance power does the ERC have over the sport of rugby in individual domestic countries for example? The answer is none.

I'm out... really I can't follow your logic??? I have no idea what you are saying or where it's coming from... The English teams are concerned about money money money money money money money... They are businesses

However at no point did I say they weren't concerned about professional rugby in their own country, because guess what... professional rugby is their business...

irishbucsfan · 25-09-2013 01:22AM

Phonehead wrote: »

I'm out... really I can't follow your logic??? I have no idea what you are saying or where it's coming from... The English teams are concerned about money money money money money money money... They are businesses

However at no point did I say they weren't concerned about professional rugby in their own country, because guess what... professional rugby is their business...

Ok great, then can you explain exactly why you said this:

Phonehead wrote: »

Yes the Unions of course are self interested but their self interest is in the survival of professional rugby in their countries while the English and to a lesser extent the French care about profits for their owners!

irishbucsfan · 25-09-2013 01:24AM

wittycynic wrote: »

These "hystericals" tend to be those who understand sporting organisations and the way power relationships work within them.

Or, you know, those who have read a history book at least once.

It's odd that you have absolutely no reservations about handing the reigns over to England and France. Most sensible people would find the idea of giving the english premiership the same vote as Ireland, Italy, Scotland, and Wales combined troubling.

I'm glad you have a crystal ball and are so wonderfully assured that no negative consequences will come of that.

I've studied history to 3rd level. I studied history of sport there. So no need to be so needlessly condescending when you are so incredibly wrong.

I'm not interested in handing the reigns over to anyone. You would need a majority to do anything, are you suggesting the English and French would be aligned on every issue?

Or else would you break out your crystal ball and suggest a change that would be in the remit of the ERC that would be as disastrous as you are suggesting?

Phonehead · 25-09-2013 01:28AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ok great, then can you explain exactly why you said this:

OMG.... they are businesses.... their business is professional rugby....... they get profits from their business.... Surely you can see that right? Profits=Professional rugby

by extension they of course care about survival of their own game.. But they are also driven by profits unlike the provincial teams!

Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

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