Anglo Tapes

10-09-2013 05:08PM

Worztron wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/anglo-executive-given-immunity-deal-by-the-dpp-1.1521627

:mad:

I might be wrong, but isn't this a good thing? As galling as it might be to see someone who was presumably complicit in what was going on at the top in anglo given a get out of Jail free card, it's most likely in return for his co-operation in the investigation. We need an inside man on our side, even to point us to "where the bodies are buried" so that we know where to start digging.

Plus, the fact that the DPP is now doing deals (and would appear to be doing so in a fairly public fashion) is only going to encourage more people from the top who had some material knowledge of what was going on in anglo to break ranks to save their own skin. That's good, because getting to the truth of it all would be a lot harder if the banker's boy's club decided to stick together and stonewall the investigation as a single unit.

tayto lover · 10-09-2013 06:15PM

Maybe he threatened to spill the beans on some of our politicians and their financial dealings. He seems to have got a good deal and much better than some of the poor mortgage holders.

Worztron · 11-09-2013 08:12PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I might be wrong, but isn't this a good thing? As galling as it might be to see someone who was presumably complicit...

"presumably complicit" :rolleyes:

Listen back to the tapes.

Hootanany · 11-09-2013 08:37PM

Worztron wrote: »

"presumably complicit" :rolleyes:

Listen back to the tapes.

Which one?

Worztron · 12-09-2013 08:09AM

Hootanany wrote: »

Which one?

The top guys were all complicit, to think otherwise is extremely naive.

Cody Pomeray · 12-09-2013 11:51AM

Worztron wrote: »

The top guys were all complicit, to think otherwise is extremely naive.

What does that attempt to demonstrate?

_Kaiser_ · 12-09-2013 12:22PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Maybe he threatened to spill the beans on some of our politicians and their financial dealings. He seems to have got a good deal and much better than some of the poor mortgage holders.

or....

Mr Moran helped set up meetings between Anglo and Fine Gael’s Enda Kenny, then leader of the opposition, in late 2008 to push the bank’s interests within political circles. This followed the introduction of the State bank guarantee as the financial crisis deepened the government’s involvement in the banking sector.

Note Enda's predicable response to this report:

Asked this afternoon how he interpreted the decision to grant immunity to Mr Moran, Taoiseach Enda Kenny said: “I can’t comment on a decision of the DPP. That office is entirely independent. They make their own decisions.”

And who appoints the DPP? Yep, the government - In fact one of her first actions (having been appointed late in 2011) then must have been to arrange this - from the IT article:

Matt Moran, Anglo’s chief financial officer when the bank was nationalised in 2009, received the immunity agreement from the Director of Public Prosecutions about two years ago.

Hmmm........

NORTH1 · 12-09-2013 01:24PM

Nice work there Kaiser.

LostBoy101 · 12-09-2013 04:55PM

I really have serious doubts that DPP is an independent body.

Godge · 13-09-2013 10:20AM

LostBoy101 wrote: »

I really have serious doubts that DPP is an independent body.

Based on what?

Your intuition?

LostBoy101 · 13-09-2013 12:00PM

Godge wrote: »

Based on what?

Your intuition?

It's appointed by the government which means they may have influence in it's decisions behind closed doors.

oscarBravo · 13-09-2013 12:38PM

LostBoy101 wrote: »

It's appointed by the government which means they may have influence in it's decisions behind closed doors.

...and the alternative is...?

LostBoy101 · 13-09-2013 01:51PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

...and the alternative is...?

Nothing sadly as we just have to play it as it is.

_Kaiser_ · 13-09-2013 08:54PM

LostBoy101 wrote: »

Nothing sadly as we just have to play it as it is.

And therein lies the real problem with the Irish political system - the inability of the electorate to truly force change

"So vote for someone else in the next election" you say.. well that'd be grand, except:

- There's no real difference between the main 2 parties

- Smaller parties are there to act as mudguards for the big two (and are in fact frequently just FF/FG in disguise such as the PD's), ignored by the majority (such as SF or DDI) or comprised of a mashing of "Independents" (also mainly used FF/FG members or quality candidates like the Healy Rae's)

- As the current shower (and pretty much every Irish government has demonstrated), election promises and manifestos will be ignored or outright shredded as soon as they get into power

- Most TD's are there to make up the numbers thanks to the whip system and the centralisation of power around the cabinet table

- Accountability isn't something the Irish system (political, banking or otherwise) bothers itself about too much .. unless you're one of the "little people" in which case the full force of the law will be used to keep you in line

- Those TD's you do "pin down" at their constituency offices will just walk out if you're not there to heap praise upon them (as demonstrated in the mandate thread here). Letters, emails or phone calls go unanswered or passed between Departments with no real answers returned

- As a result, most of the Irish electorate is so jaded or apathetic that the status quo is maintained regardless of the outrages our "leaders" commit or which party has their turn at the wheel

Conclusion: The Irish flirtation with Independence/"Democracy" has been a utter failure and alternative options now need to be considered.

But because Paddy hates change (something to be feared and derided) and cherishes his fantasies of "reunification" such a thought will never be entertained. And so the cycle continues with those who have the opportunity (or no other choice) getting out of Dodge - and who can blame them really?

But sure such is (Irish) life I guess!

golfwallah · 13-09-2013 09:19PM

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

And therein lies the real problem with the Irish political system - the inability of the electorate to truly force change

"So vote for someone else in the next election" you say.. well that'd be grand, except:

- There's no real difference between the main 2 parties

........

But sure such is (Irish) life I guess!

I think, perhaps, your points about the Irish electorate apply a lot more broadly and not just to Ireland.

Winston Churchill summarised it quite succinctly: "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

But then he also said that: “Democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time”.

Arguments about direct V representative democracy aside, I guess the most apt quote on politics / democracy, as we know them, can be attributed to Plato: “One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics, is that you end up being governed by your inferiors.”

Good loser · 14-09-2013 01:18AM

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

And therein lies the real problem with the Irish political system - the inability of the electorate to truly force change

"So vote for someone else in the next election" you say.. well that'd be grand, except:

- There's no real difference between the main 2 parties

- Smaller parties are there to act as mudguards for the big two (and are in fact frequently just FF/FG in disguise such as the PD's), ignored by the majority (such as SF or DDI) or comprised of a mashing of "Independents" (also mainly used FF/FG members or quality candidates like the Healy Rae's)

- As the current shower (and pretty much every Irish government has demonstrated), election promises and manifestos will be ignored or outright shredded as soon as they get into power

- Most TD's are there to make up the numbers thanks to the whip system and the centralisation of power around the cabinet table

- Accountability isn't something the Irish system (political, banking or otherwise) bothers itself about too much .. unless you're one of the "little people" in which case the full force of the law will be used to keep you in line

- Those TD's you do "pin down" at their constituency offices will just walk out if you're not there to heap praise upon them (as demonstrated in the mandate thread here). Letters, emails or phone calls go unanswered or passed between Departments with no real answers returned

- As a result, most of the Irish electorate is so jaded or apathetic that the status quo is maintained regardless of the outrages our "leaders" commit or which party has their turn at the wheel

Conclusion: The Irish flirtation with Independence/"Democracy" has been a utter failure and alternative options now need to be considered.

But because Paddy hates change (something to be feared and derided) and cherishes his fantasies of "reunification" such a thought will never be entertained. And so the cycle continues with those who have the opportunity (or no other choice) getting out of Dodge - and who can blame them really?

But sure such is (Irish) life I guess!

Re the sentence I've bolded this is what Sean Lemass said every government should do as soon as it acquires office.

Seems to me to be a lot more sensible than trying to implement all election promises.

Hootanany · 14-09-2013 07:10AM

Good loser wrote: »

Re the sentence I've bolded this is what Sean Lemass said every government should do as soon as it acquires office.

Seems to me to be a lot more sensible than trying to implement all election promises.

.com?

Worztron · 15-09-2013 08:07PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

What does that attempt to demonstrate?

That they are crooks.

More here: http://www.independent.ie/blog/new-anglo-tapes-listen-to-them-all-here-29580761.html

Cody Pomeray · 16-09-2013 01:46PM

Worztron wrote: »

That they are crooks.

More here: http://www.independent.ie/blog/new-anglo-tapes-listen-to-them-all-here-29580761.html

I've listened to all the tapes, I'm asking about the one with Matt Moran. The context were that people were being outraged by his immunity from prosecution, but it isn't clear what people think he's done wrong.

I am not on the side of those who insist there was no criminality at Anglo. I think there is strong basis for suspicion of criminality. However I just want to know why people are outraged at this guy Matt Moran's immunity. What exactly do we think he did?

NORTH1 · 16-09-2013 05:51PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

I've listened to all the tapes, I'm asking about the one with Matt Moran. The context were that people were being outraged by his immunity from prosecution, but it isn't clear what people think he's done wrong.

I am not on the side of those who insist there was no criminality at Anglo. I think there is strong basis for suspicion of criminality. However I just want to know why people are outraged at this guy Matt Moran's immunity. What exactly do we think he did?

The fact that he needs immunity could be a clue to crimes committed and a fact that someone has evidence that criminality as occurred. Don't you think?

Cody Pomeray · 16-09-2013 06:39PM

NORTH1 wrote: »

The fact that he needs immunity could be a clue to crimes committed and a fact that someone has evidence that criminality as occurred. Don't you think?

No, immunity is not synonymous with guilt. For example, if you hire a Barrister and he does a really awful job, you can't sue him for negligence, he is immune. You can't sue a Garda for not solving a crime. Why do these immunities exist? Because these professionals are required to act fearlessly in the public interest.

I see no reason to believe Matt Moran is a criminal. However, he should be able to honestly and fearlessly discharge his duties as a witness without being subject to some possibly populist, possibly even obscure criminal liability for a regulatory offence he may have had no intention to commit.

Possibly the biggest danger with fraud charges are the complexity of the charges and the duration of the corresponding trials. If the DPP can simplify the process by having clear testimony from a fairly benign insider, then thats good case management imo.

Gloomtastic! · 16-09-2013 08:30PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

No, immunity is not synonymous with guilt. For example, if you hire a Barrister and he does a really awful job, you can't sue him for negligence, he is immune. You can't sue a Garda for not solving a crime. Why do these immunities exist? Because these professionals are required to act fearlessly in the public interest.

I see no reason to believe Matt Moran is a criminal. However, he should be able to honestly and fearlessly discharge his duties as a witness without being subject to some possibly populist, possibly even obscure criminal liability for a regulatory offence he may have had no intention to commit.

Possibly the biggest danger with fraud charges are the complexity of the charges and the duration of the corresponding trials. If the DPP can simplify the process by having clear testimony from a fairly benign insider, then thats good case management imo.

How many others have been issued with immunity?

tayto lover · 16-09-2013 08:35PM

LostBoy101 wrote: »

I really have serious doubts that DPP is an independent body.

All the important people like those high up in DPP's office, Garda Commissioners, Judges etc are Government appointees so are at their beck and call. "Never bite the hand that feeds you" kind of thing.

LostBoy101 · 16-09-2013 10:02PM

tayto lover wrote: »

All the important people like those high up in DPP's office, Garda Commissioners, Judges etc are Government appointees so are at their beck and call. "Never bite the hand that feeds you" kind of thing.

Agree and I would put it like "if you scratch my back I scratch yours"

NORTH1 · 17-09-2013 12:26AM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

No, immunity is not synonymous with guilt. For example, if you hire a Barrister and he does a really awful job, you can't sue him for negligence, he is immune. You can't sue a Garda for not solving a crime. Why do these immunities exist? Because these professionals are required to act fearlessly in the public interest.

Most people don't have criminal charges laid against them for doing a terrible job, we loose our jobs and don't get fat pensions.

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

I see no reason to believe Matt Moran is a criminal. However, he should be able to honestly and fearlessly discharge his duties as a witness without being subject to some possibly populist, possibly even obscure criminal liability for a regulatory offence he may have had no intention to commit.

Again getting treatment the rest of us normal people would not expect to get in this two tier system.

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Possibly the biggest danger with fraud charges are the complexity of the charges and the duration of the corresponding trials. If the DPP can simplify the process by having clear testimony from a fairly benign insider, then thats good case management imo.

And I see the biggest danger for the government is that someone may face fraud charges and bring up names in the government. Benign bring a fine geal insider? Just how I feel on it....

Cody Pomeray · 24-09-2013 07:20PM

The Central Bank has indicated that it will not be seeking that the contents of the Anglo Tapes (or those Anglo tapes that have been released) lead to a criminal investigation or prosecution, nor will the Bank commence any prosecution in relation to the tapes itself.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/financial-services/central-bank-says-no-new-criminal-issues-in-anglo-tapes-1.1538363

I await a few regular wagon jumpers who insist that they knew this all along, when in fact I don't see that anybody could have predicted this decision with certainty. It seems the bank have taken the decision in light of their contemporaneous and un-published correspondence with Anglo executives during the period of the recordings.

Does this, therefore, suggest that Anglo Irish Bank, as it was then, had - quite contrary to what is indicated on the tapes - been quite honest with the Central Bank and the Financial Regulator about Anglo's precarious financial position? That is a strong possibility. And if so, doesn't this raise serious questions about the Central Bank's policy with pushing ahead in upholding Anglo Irish Bank as a 'viable' institution, funded by taxpayers?

In short, if the Central Bank is happy it wasn't being codded, were the Central Bank doing the codding?

tayto lover · 24-09-2013 08:46PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

The Central Bank has indicated that it will not be seeking that the contents of the Anglo Tapes (or those Anglo tapes that have been released) lead to a criminal investigation or prosecution, nor will the Bank commence any prosecution in relation to the tapes itself.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/sectors/financial-services/central-bank-says-no-new-criminal-issues-in-anglo-tapes-1.1538363

I await a few regular wagon jumpers who insist that they knew this all along, when in fact I don't see that anybody could have predicted this decision with certainty. It seems the bank have taken the decision in light of their contemporaneous and un-published correspondence with Anglo executives during the period of the recordings.

Does this, therefore, suggest that Anglo Irish Bank, as it was then, had - quite contrary to what is indicated on the tapes - been quite honest with the Central Bank and the Financial Regulator about Anglo's precarious financial position? That is a strong possibility. And if so, doesn't this raise serious questions about the Central Bank's policy with pushing ahead in upholding Anglo Irish Bank as a 'viable' institution, funded by taxpayers?

In short, if the Central Bank is happy it wasn't being codded, were the Central Bank doing the codding?

Well I always said that there was a cozy cartel at work.
The Banks looked after the politicians and the politicians looked after their banker friends in return. The Central Bank is just an off-shoot.
Too many political careers at stake.

Sand · 24-09-2013 09:00PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Does this, therefore, suggest that Anglo Irish Bank, as it was then, had - quite contrary to what is indicated on the tapes - been quite honest with the Central Bank and the Financial Regulator about Anglo's precarious financial position? That is a strong possibility.

Both a strong possibility and quite contrary to what is indicated on the tapes. I applaud your ability to hold a self contradicting view. Bravo.

Cody Pomeray · 24-09-2013 09:06PM

Sand wrote: »

Both a strong possibility and quite contrary to what is indicated on the tapes. I applaud your ability to hold a self contradicting view. Bravo.

The tapes seem to indicate that Anglo was being dishonest in its dealings with the Central Bank.

However, the Central Bank's decision not to institute proceedings nor refer the tapes to another prosecutor undermined this possibility; the CB's decision indicates that Anglo executives may not have been inducing nor conspiring to induce the Central Bank to act to act in a wrongful manner.

I don't see how this could have been any clearer. You're just not reading the sentence correctly.

Sand · 24-09-2013 09:50PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

The tapes seem to indicate that Anglo was being dishonest in its dealings with the Central Bank.

However, the Central Bank's decision not to institute proceedings nor refer the tapes to another prosecutor undermined this possibility; the CB's decision indicates that Anglo executives may not have been inducing nor conspiring to induce the Central Bank to act to act in a wrongful manner.

I don't see how this could have been any clearer. You're just not reading the sentence correctly.

There is a another possibility - Anglo Irish could have been dishonest *and* the Central Bank could have chosen not to institute proceedings *because* they had been induced to act in a wrongful manner. Do you see how that might be embarrassing? To acknowledge that you made an error?

Anglo Tapes

Comments