Anglo Tapes

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Sand wrote: »

Institutionally, the Irish civil service is a direct inheritor of the garrison British civil service.

Erm, you do know that up to 1973 we had a compulsory Irish language requirement for entry to the Civil Service. I can't imagine too many West Brits passing that test.

I'm not defending what your see. But it has more to do with the products of the Irish Christian Brothers than it does to any British legacy.

Sand

I don't really see that language has much to do with it. I'm speaking of the institutional view of the civil service towards the Irish people not being much different from the view held prior to independence. I'm not talking about them all being West Brits or anything like that.

However, for what its worth, do you think that a requirement to speak a dead language that the ordinary Irish person does not speak made the civil service closer to or more distant from the people they ruled? Did it make them more patriotic than the ordinary Irish person? Less dismissive of the ordinary Irish person? I don't see it as a major factor, but I don't see the language requirement helping the civil service feel any less contempt for the entirety of Irish people who don't speak Irish.

thebman

Anybody Have a link to the vinb video mentioned earlier discussing the letter?

Sand

Just google TV3 Player - should come up and then just pick the VB show, July 18th. Discussion starts around 6-7 minutes in.

Worztron

thebman wrote: »

Anybody Have a link to the vinb video mentioned earlier discussing the letter?

http://www.tv3.ie/3player/show/41/66017/0/Tonight-with-Vincent-Browne

Also a clip:

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Sand wrote: »

I'm speaking of the institutional view of the civil service towards the Irish people not being much different from the view held prior to independence.

I can't parse that statement into anything that makes much sense. At the time of independence, the State would not have been involved in half of the activities that it undertakes now, to such an extent that its hard to compare the two animals in any meaningful way.

What I would say is, for better or worse, the civil service doesn't see itself as the referee. It implements Government policy of the day, which means it follows the political process. Incidently, that would be why banking regulation was in the hands of an independent body; the think would be that banking regulation shouldn't be in the hands of civil servants who could be instructed by Ministers to follow a particular course of action. It also explains why, when the crisis struck, you'd really no-one in DoF with any real expertise in banking operations.

Which, I'd expect, means we'll find the advice provided to be lacking in retrospect. There would have been no substantial capacity in DoF to challenge what the Financial Regulator was saying, even down to the famous Pat Neary claim that Irish banks were well-capitalised.

Incidently, just to stress again, I'm not saying any of this is good.

Sand wrote: »

I don't see it as a major factor, but I don't see the language requirement helping the civil service feel any less contempt for the entirety of Irish people who don't speak Irish.

The significance of the language requirement is that it (deliberately) meant a change in the kind of people who could expect to qualify for State employment. That could have had some significance in the scheme of things. What it most certainly did was make a strong break with what went before.

Noreen1

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Never going to happen, we would need a complete new gene pool. It is ingrained in most IMO that go into politics. How many actually go into politics for true altruism and the actual good of the country? Noreen you will be waiting a long time I am afraid.

I'm actively hoping for a new gene pool.

I honestly cannot understand how either the current, or previous Government dare to show their faces in public, never mind issue bland statements of denial, when the evidence clearly shows that there was a great deal of correspondence between various - eh - shall we say - members of Dail Eireann, and Anglo Irish.

There are questions to be answered by the Dept. of Finance, and the Financial Regulator - but there are also questions to be answered by senior members of both FF and FG.

I'm beginning to think the truth may come out in sufficient detail via the Quinn cases to blow the whole lot out of the water.
If so, I'm guessing that quite a few TDs and Ministers will choose not to run for re-election.

Whether we have enough new political parties and Independents to step into the breach remains to be seen.....

If we do, we may just see a sea change in Irish politics that would have been unthinkable ten years ago. If not, and people have no option but to vote for the same old status quo - then a clear mandate will be perceived as having been given to the Government of the day that they can do anything they please, get caught doing it - and it doesn't matter, they can get away with it! :mad:

If that happens, then God help us all - and we will truly have been shamed before the World!

washman3

The latest revelations just prove what many posters have been repeatedly posting here, that the major parties were up to their necks in this and knew full well what the end game would be. The names that are now emerging (or re-emerging) are a very worrying development indeed.
If ever the time has come for the formation of a new party this is the clearest signal yet that serious moves must now be made immediately.

Noreen1

washman3 wrote: »

The latest revelations just prove what many posters have been repeatedly posting here, that the major parties were up to their necks in this and knew full well what the end game would be. The names that are now emerging (or re-emerging) are a very worrying development indeed.
If ever the time has come for the formation of a new party this is the clearest signal yet that serious moves must now be made immediately.

Absolutely.

Only a complete fool could possibly have either faith, or trust, in the current parties.

If ever there was proof of the need to be able to recall TDs, the Irish people have now been given it. (Then again, if that were possible, who could we elect right now?)

Failing that, some real choice for the electorate in the next election would be a very welcome development - ideally some parties that would be willing to accept some input from the electorate, rather than the "party faithful" in the decision-making process.

Sand

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I can't parse that statement into anything that makes much sense.

Okay, that's grand. It's just a tangent from the actual topic anyway.

@washman3

The latest revelations just prove what many posters have been repeatedly posting here, that the major parties were up to their necks in this and knew full well what the end game would be. The names that are now emerging (or re-emerging) are a very worrying development indeed.

Id argue that what it shows is not the the parties/politicians knew (They may certainly have known but I don't think the Quinn letter prove that point - Brian Lenihan appears to be the target of the deceit here) but that actually it shows that senior civil servants knew what was going on and actively conspired to carry out illegal acts under the "Green Jersey" paradigm. Patrick Neary, the FR, was told the day after Anglo Irish learned about Quinn's CFD position in September 2007 - a full year before the guarantee. Did he tell any of the political parties? The DoF appears to have been complicit in writing of an untrue letter to the MoF. They seemed to have been the people with the best access to info, and who attempted to control the access of politicians to that info. They are up to their necks in it.

The politicians clearly have their own failings to answer for - but changing the political parties isn't enough. The civil service is the permanent government, effectively accountable to nobody. It's clear the civil service needs a clear out and definitive restructuring if we really want to apply the lessons of the past 15 years.

emo72

Yes. The civil service needs to answer to us now. Ann Nolan what were you doing? Did you represent the citizens of Ireland when that letter was altered, or did you represent your needs?

I'm beginning to think that they'll get away without answering anything at this point. Why aren't journalists at Ann Nolans house every day looking for a statement? By the time they answer anything they will all have agreed on some wishy-washy explanation that keeps the public in the dark, and treats us with utter contempt.

Boombastic

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

............Why aren't journalists at Ann Nolans house every day looking for a statement? ................

That is something I can't understand either.

Sand

Looks like the Quinn administrators is also suing PWC, claiming they didn't perform their duties as auditors.

I've got to say - I don't particularly like Quinn (he's essentially a simple man who made one of dumbest gambles of the entire Celtic Tiger era - and lost) but he is doing a fantastic service for the average Irish citizen by taking on all comers with regards to the insiders in Ireland: The banks, the DoF, the central bank, the FR and now (indirectly at least) the rent seeking professions of the auditors. I suppose this demonstrates why insiders are so loathe to let one of their number fall - they know where all the skeletons are buried and a desperate man is a dangerous enemy indeed. He is probably only motivated by selfish outrage that he has been kicked outside of the tent, but in Ireland no one else seems to be shaking up the established order of things so we're stuck with him.

We are learning a hell of lot more than any inquiry could ever tell us thanks to his desperate fight to save what he can from his creditors. I know the Irish taxpayer will be stuck with whatever bill he manages to extract, but I'm rooting for him nonetheless. We've already paid out tens of billions for no benefit whatsoever, whats a few more for a proper account of events? Especially given the majority of the fee wont be going to the lawyers for once.

Mr.Micro

Sand wrote: »

Looks like the Quinn administrators is also suing PWC, claiming they didn't perform their duties as auditors.

I've got to say - I don't particularly like Quinn (he's essentially a simple man who made one of dumbest gambles of the entire Celtic Tiger era - and lost) but he is doing a fantastic service for the average Irish citizen by taking on all comers with regards to the insiders in Ireland: The banks, the DoF, the central bank, the FR and now (indirectly at least) the rent seeking professions of the auditors. I suppose this demonstrates why insiders are so loathe to let one of their number fall - they know where all the skeletons are buried and a desperate man is a dangerous enemy indeed. He is probably only motivated by selfish outrage that he has been kicked outside of the tent, but in Ireland no one else seems to be shaking up the established order of things so we're stuck with him.

We are learning a hell of lot more than any inquiry could ever tell us thanks to his desperate fight to save what he can from his creditors. I know the Irish taxpayer will be stuck with whatever bill he manages to extract, but I'm rooting for him nonetheless. We've already paid out tens of billions for no benefit whatsoever, whats a few more for a proper account of events? Especially given the majority of the fee wont be going to the lawyers for once.

Well good luck to him. No matter what he gets it will never equal the billions he lost. He, to me is an egoist, simple or not, more akin to the Bull McCabe. He was out of his league when dealing with the Anglo boys, no matter who he chooses now,to blame for his woes. Look in the mirror Mr. Quinn.

serfboard

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Why aren't journalists at Ann Nolans house every day looking for a statement?

Blame the good weather, but I hadn't been following the minutiae of the Anglo Tapes developements in the last few weeks, and so I hadn't heard of Ann Nolan before this comment. So I Googled her and got this mini-bio from the Indo (August 2012):

The Irish Independent wrote:

The Department of Finance appears to be as reluctant as the corporate sector to promote women to positions of real power, which makes the appointment of Ann Nolan as a second secretary a rare appointment.

Ms Nolan's title may sound modest but she runs the department's financial management services division which is responsible for regulation of the bombed-out financial services sector. She is also in charge of the National Asset Management Agency which has a big say over what happens to commercial property prices.

But the best part is this:

The Irish Independent wrote:

her elder sister Helen Nolan is company secretary at Bank of Ireland, which ...

... explains why she was so cosy with the bankers.

Gloomtastic!

^ Only in Ireland!!! We haven't got a hope, have we?

Sand

That's the hilarious thing about Ireland - I remember a few months back a journalist broke a story about a man and wife both being selected for the citizens convention, openly wondering about how fair the process could be to have randomly selected both of them. The funny thing was the journalist himself was married to another delegate at the citizens convention.

Ireland is so small that if the poacher and gamekeeper aren't in bed with each other, they are close relatives or friends. This is exactly why we need root and branch reform of the civil service and how policy is made in this country. We need rules and requirements around transparency which would seem excessive in larger countries.

As it is, apart from Vincent Browne the media outlets of Official Ireland are studiously ignoring that the DoF conspired with Anglo Irish to falsify a letter to the MoF. They simply don't want to fall out with their friends/wives/cousins/in-laws so they don't ask awkward questions.

creedp

Sand wrote: »

As it is, apart from Vincent Browne the media outlets of Official Ireland are studiously ignoring that the DoF conspired with Anglo Irish to falsify a letter to the MoF. They simply don't want to fall out with their friends/wives/cousins/in-laws so they don't ask awkward questions.

While that is obviously a possible and no doubt a popular theory .. corrupt civil servants protect their personal interests by not advising MOF of an imminent national banking crisis .. it is also possible that the civil servant did their jobs and supported their Minister by advising him that Anglo was about to write to him with startling information and he told the civil servants this cant happen on my watch so get the letter redrafted to omit the reference to lending for CFDs and we'll try and ride out the storm.

While the role of supporting the Minister should mean providing independent and objective policy support to enable the taking of an informed political decision which potects the taxpayers interest, in reality this has morphed into supporting the Minister by protecting his/her political reputation at all cost. With the advent of the political advisors/spinners etc and the FOI legislation much of this 'sensitive advice' never gets committed to file - so its no surprise that this draft letter got re-drafted with no record why.

The political system appoints senior civil servants and the persons to plum jobs such as the govenor of the central bank etc and in return these appointees deliver political protection - or sometimes termed don the green jersey. This of course doesn't excuse or justify what these public servants do but in my opinion its too simplistic and convenient to consider that these actions are taken to protect civil servants and their extended families. The idea that the MOF was not briefed on the Anglo letter is, while not impossible, pretty hard to accept. Will need to see evidence to support it.

emo72

cool story bro^^^^^^



so creedp is Nolans boards name. lol

creedp

emo72 wrote: »

cool story bro^^^^^^



so creedp is Nolans boards name. lol

I know .. it doesn't cut it when compared to Ann Nolan hid what Anglo was doing so her lovely Nanna's share value could be protected. Can't wait to see the serialisation of that one in the Sindo. A book and a blockbuster film to follow .. LOL

For the record I have nothing but contempt for senior public servants blindly protecting their political masters its just that neither have I any time for fairytales

emo72

what fairytale? the facts? she could come forward and deny it? FFS why would you even invent a fairytale to defend her?

do you seriously think she took a bullet for her finance minister? which explanation is more plausible. jesus christ.

Francesco

Does anyone know why the tapes have now gone silent ?

The independent boasted it had hours and hours of tapes for us ?

Who decided on the timing of releasing/holding the tapes and who benefited ?

Going Forward

Coincidentally, here's yet another Ms. Nolan. (no presumption of any relationship of hers with the the others!)

She tried to muzzle Vincent Browne at the infamous press conference:

Boombastic

The silence from the newly released tapes is deafening. It's almost worse than the tapes we heard.

Sand

creedp wrote: »

While that is obviously a possible and no doubt a popular theory .. corrupt civil servants protect their personal interests by not advising MOF of an imminent national banking crisis .. it is also possible that the civil servant did their jobs and supported their Minister by advising him that Anglo was about to write to him with startling information and he told the civil servants this cant happen on my watch so get the letter redrafted to omit the reference to lending for CFDs and we'll try and ride out the storm.

There was nothing imminent about the crisis - Anglo was nationalized at that point. All that was left was to decide the strategy on how to minimize the loss to the taxpayer - and perhaps to cover the tracks of a conspiracy by Anglo, the CB and the DoF to mislead the Dail on the viability of Anglo in 2007-2008. Lets not forget the news of Quinns CFD gamble horrified the Anglo board (who immediately grasped what it meant for the survival of the bank), who immediately informed the FR, and that same FR was on our TVs back in September 2008 ( a full year later) still claiming the banks were essentially sound. Admitting to CFD lending could have led to more questions, with uncomfortable answers for the civil servants in the DoF, the CB and the FR.

As for the MoF actually instructing his civil servants to lie to him? That is just absolutely laughable. Why would Lenny as the question about CFDs ( and he did request info on CFDs specifically in his request so he must have heard the stories that were apparently widespread) if he didn't want the answer? Lenny was a fool but it was apparently an open secret in Insider circles that Quinn was up to his neck in Anglo CFDs - it is quite likely word of this reached Lenny and he asked. Maybe he just didn't consider that he couldn't trust his own civil servants.

And *even if* true - the idea that civil servants are so beholden to "de ministeer" to the point that they conspire with the banks to decieve the public (and the MoF only holds his position from the public) only further demonstrates how corrupt the civil service is. They are there to represent the public interest *against* short term political interests - not to serve them. While I and other Irish taxpayers pay the civil servants wages they better hold my interests above the interests of the Minister - they'll find he wont be able to pay as well as I can. Jaysus....it has got to the point where the indignant defence against charges of corruption is essentially more corruption.

The truth is simple - the first Anglo Irish letter to the MoF was essentially true and accurate. After the DoF got hold of it and offered their "guidance" the letter was essentially a direct lie to the MoF and by extension to the Dail, and by extension to the people of Ireland who owned Anglo for better or worse. Now either the DoF directly conspired with Anglo, or they kept silent while they knew Anglo was lying. In either case it is clear the DoF entirely failed to serve its purpose, and that the DoF in particular and the civil service in general need to be reviewed from the ground up.

A starting point ought to be that the civil servants in each department are held accountable to the Dail, not the Minister.

EDIT - I'll give you some credit though creepd. Your post is an example of why we need an inquiry led by someone with experience of fighting developing world corruption. Someone who knows to assume the worst of intentions, not the best.

NORTH1

This seems to be too shall minded, I feel the pressures must have been coming from Europe, if the truth came out, why would the tax payer foot the bill to pay back the European banks?

Lie and the European banks get the money, by the time the lie is found out it's to late to do anything about it, the senior civil servants keep quiet and it's like nothing happened, and the tax payer gets screwed.

PS.

And why would the civil servant do this? The withdrawal of funding, and the collapse of the economy maybe?

Hootanany

I would say the tapes have been gagged,Big Business is Big Business don't you know!:cool:

Scofflaw

NORTH1 wrote: »

This seems to be too shall minded, I feel the pressures must have been coming from Europe, if the truth came out, why would the tax payer foot the bill to pay back the European banks?

Lie and the European banks get the money, by the time the lie is found out it's to late to do anything about it, the senior civil servants keep quiet and it's like nothing happened, and the tax payer gets screwed.

PS.

And why would the civil servant do this? The withdrawal of funding, and the collapse of the economy maybe?

Except that the European banks weren't the ones being paid back. All the evidence points to the funding in Irish banks coming from UK and US banks - according the Central Bank's balance sheets for the Irish banks, the amount of eurozone money was minimal - less than 10%.

As to why we wouldn't want to upset the US and the UK...gosh, hard to say.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Good loser

Going Forward wrote: »

Coincidentally, here's yet another Ms. Nolan. (no presumption of any relationship of hers with the the others!)

She tried to muzzle Vincent Browne at the infamous press conference:

The best ever put down of Browne. Loved it.