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Unhelpful 'gendering' of social issues

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    #2
    GalwayGuy2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭GalwayGuy2


    ^^^

    Isn't that argument fairly common? I remember watching a video about why males should be feminists, and I don't think people realized that the article above, and the video mentioned, is pretty much the same argument.


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    #3
    ConFurioso
    Closed Accounts Posts: 378 ✭✭ConFurioso


    Jesus Christ! What an awful awful piece of writing! :eek:


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    #4
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,321 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    NiallSparky wrote: »
    Apparently all us men are at fault that rape still exists: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/telling-women-to-be-careful-gets-men-off-the-hook-1.1536337

    That article is truly sickening.
    I will just leave this here for anyone who wants to take it a little further

    http://www.pressombudsman.ie/_fileupload/How%20to%20Complain%2009_10.pdf


    Principle 8 – Prejudice
    Newspapers and magazines shall not
    publish material intended or likely to
    cause grave offence or stir up hatred
    against an individual or group on the
    basis of their race, religion, nationality,
    colour, ethnic origin, membership of
    the travelling community, gender,
    sexual orientation, marital status,
    disability, illness, or age.

    I think this article crosses the line on this multiple times.

    Edit: I sent an e-mail to the online editor of the Irish Times. I will keep you all updated on any response I get. If none I will escalate to the press ombudsman. Does anyone know if the Times has signed up to the code of practice?


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    #5
    wonderfullife
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,924 ✭✭✭wonderfullife


    NiallSparky wrote: »
    Apparently all us men are at fault that rape still exists: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/telling-women-to-be-careful-gets-men-off-the-hook-1.1536337



    I'm sorry Una, but I'm in no better a position to stop rape than you are. I'm also no more responsible for its existence.
    Dubious behaviour

    Men, of course, argue that this generalisation is unfair, that it demonises blokes who are non-violent and deplore such behaviour. Yet every group of guys has a buddy who is a little wayward, and whose behaviour towards women is dubious. Many men remain silent when the lads suggest a strip club on a stag night, even if they are uncomfortable with it. Most guys probably have a suspicion that a male close to them has bought sex.

    The whole article is a travesty but the above is hilarious.

    It would basically be the same as a man saying this:

    "Every group of girls has a friend who is a little bit of a slut. Many girls remain silent when the girls start touching the strippers genitals on a hen night, even if they are uncomfortable with it. Most girls probably have a suspicion that a female close to them has slept with a guy purely because he has lots of money."


    I really despair at times at what our schools and University systems are producing talent wise - made more evident when you have the likes of this woman writing a piece that is ill-informed, grossly unfair, fully sexist and effectively reads like an 8 year old turning in their homework they wrote over their weetabix before school.

    Something like "In the famine, many people died due to no spuds. Everyone knows all Irish people like potatoes."

    Tremendous.


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    #6
    Setun
    Registered Users Posts: 3,805 ✭✭✭Setun


    Perhaps some of you have read Una Mullally's recent Irish Times article - "Telling women to be careful gets men off the hook". In it, she makes some openly ridiculous claims leveled at 'men' that largely obscure an otherwise useful point about how society should understand acts of sexual violence. It contains the following statement, which for me, turns the complex and terribly ugly issues of sexual violence and harassment into a binary/blanket gender issue:
    So, women, be careful? How about men, don’t rape? Men, don’t murder your exes or partners. Men, don’t beat up your wives or girlfriends. Men, don’t assault someone you’ve just met that night. Men, don’t shout at women across the road just because you can. Men, stop hanging your threat of rape over dark streets.
    Thanks for that Una, I hadn't realised the above before, I'll try harder to not "hang my threat of rape over dark streets" in future. Victim-blaming is of course not the answer to tackling sexual violence, but neither are grossly over-simplified counter-arguments that include the unqualified quote "Most guys probably have a suspicion that a male close to them has bought sex." Blimey.

    Barbara Ellen's article referencing the tumblr "Men Taking Up Too Much Space on the Train" in The Guardian last week - while dealing with a much less serious issue, also managed to sidestep a basic point. It doesn't have to be about gender, reduced to alpha male crotch thrusting and dominating body language in shared public space. If we're going to start taking pictures of people occupying more than their dismal share on public transport, why turn it into a issue apparently solely perpetrated by men? I'm a regular user of public transport, and my experience of people sticking their legs out across the aisle, lying spreadeagled across a chair and a half, or sticking their bags on the seat beside them is *not* an issue that needs to be gendered.

    It's a shame that such conversations that certainly require public debate end up muddied and side-stepped through a simplified gendered reading of the issue.


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    #7
    py2006
    Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    NiallSparky wrote: »
    Apparently all us men are at fault that rape still exists: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/telling-women-to-be-careful-gets-men-off-the-hook-1.1536337.
    Men, don’t rape
    Instructing women to be careful gets men off the hook. The potential perpetrators of attacks are seldom asked to be as conscientious, apart from occasional innovations such as the Don’t Be That Guy campaign. So, women, be careful? How about men, don’t rape? Men, don’t murder your exes or partners. Men, don’t beat up your wives or girlfriends. Men, don’t assault someone you’ve just met that night. Men, don’t shout at women across the road just because you can. Men, stop hanging your threat of rape over dark streets.

    Lost for words...

    and..
    Men, of course, argue that this generalisation is unfair, that it demonises blokes who are non-violent and deplore such behaviour. Yet every group of guys has a buddy who is a little wayward, and whose behaviour towards women is dubious. Many men remain silent when the lads suggest a strip club on a stag night, even if they are uncomfortable with it. Most guys probably have a suspicion that a male close to them has bought sex.


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    #8
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    You will always have extremists, those who peddle simplistic messages of hate, on all sides, regardless of ideology.

    What disturbs me is that in Western society, such misandrist viewpoints have essentially become mainstream; not only in the media, but increasingly in politics and the NGO's. It's no longer a bunch of fringe extremists giving the rest of feminism a bad name - the lunatics have taken over the asylum, as it were, and the rest of the feminist movement, regrettably, does not appear to have objected much.

    I'd be curious as to how more moderate feminists rationalize this inaction.


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    #9
    py2006
    Registered Users Posts: 9,847 ✭✭✭py2006


    This lady also wrote an article on Miley Cyrus and the twerking incident on MTV. A lot of men are to blame undertones.

    I had aspirations at one stage of being a writer but assumed I was nowhere near that standard. After reading some of her articles, I realise I was wrong.


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    #10
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    "Gendering" of issues would be something I would expect most feminists would have a huge problem with in the first place.

    "All men do this", or "all women do that" statements are extremely frustrating for anyone who believes in equality.


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    #11
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    pwurple wrote: »
    "Gendering" of issues would be something I would expect most feminists would have a huge problem with in the first place.

    "All men do this", or "all women do that" statements are extremely frustrating for anyone who believes in equality.
    Then why has it become so acceptable in mainstream feminism? Why isn't it being attacked by feminists who believe in equality?


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    #12
    Setun
    Registered Users Posts: 3,805 ✭✭✭Setun


    pwurple wrote: »
    "Gendering" of issues would be something I would expect most feminists would have a huge problem with in the first place.

    "All men do this", or "all women do that" statements are extremely frustrating for anyone who believes in equality.
    Just to be clear, I'm not saying that it's solely a "feminist" issue, as that would be a tad hypocritical. It's perhaps a tendency adopted by some (male and female) feminists under various strands of feminist rhetoric.

    The tumblr I mentioned in the OP - http://mentakingup2muchspaceonthetrain.tumblr.com/ - is apparently run by a man. Many such blogs begin from a slightly ironic, or at least apolitical, starting point. When they become mentioned by columnists as a call to arms, as Yet Another Symbol Of The Patriarchal Oppressor, then indeed it is converted into a gendered issue, and immediately the responses are vitriolic and limited to viewing the issue from this gendered perspective. How can society approach such issues if "all men are bogeymen" is a recurring trope in mainstream discussions?


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    #13
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Then why has it become so acceptable in mainstream feminism? Why isn't it being attacked by feminists who believe in equality?

    It's not acceptable to me. I've no idea why the media believe it to be acceptable... possibly because it sells newspapers? It cannot be rationalised.

    I agree wholeheartedly with the OP. It's totally inane to mark a trait of some people in general down to either one gender or another. Claiming that the feminist movement has caused this, is hypocritical indeed.


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    #14
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,321 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Transferred over related posts from Sexism you have personally experienced merging content


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    #15
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    pwurple wrote: »
    It's not acceptable to me. I've no idea why the media believe it to be acceptable...
    So you cannot say why it appears to be acceptable, yet somehow you can definitively say that you "would expect most feminists would have a huge problem with in the first place". How?
    possibly because it sells newspapers? It cannot be rationalised.
    The problem though is it's not limited to the press. You see it in politics, where every piece of gender related is designed to protect or enhance women's rights (despite some pretty blatant discrimination against men crying out for reform). And even in NGO's; how many anti-domestic violence organizations, for example, don't even acknowledge that women can be violent against men?

    So, you see, there's a bit more to it than simply selling newspapers.
    Claiming that the feminist movement has caused this, is hypocritical indeed.
    Yet it is members of the feminist movement who have caused this. They may be a minority of radical misandrists, as is generally claimed, but that claim becomes undermined by the silence of the rest of the movement to their actions, and by the sheer influence that they appear to have amassed at this stage.


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    #16
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    So you cannot say why it appears to be acceptable, yet somehow you can definitively say that you "would expect most feminists would have a huge problem with in the first place". How?
    How? Because the very definition of feminism is to gain general equality with men, not to be sexist and discriminatory.
    The problem though is it's not limited to the press. You see it in politics, where every piece of gender related is designed to protect or enhance women's rights (despite some pretty blatant discrimination against men crying out for reform). And even in NGO's; how many anti-domestic violence organizations, for example, don't even acknowledge that women can be violent against men?
    I don't want to engage in the whataboutery I am gettign dragged into, but assuming every piece of gender-bias is one-sided is blinkered. I agree all your examples those are valid, especially the domestic violence organisations. But that does not negate the existance of other insidous gender related muppetry which women experience.
    Yet it is members of the feminist movement who have caused this.
    Evidence for this claim please. You are simply using the term 'feminist' as a synonym for sexist.


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    #17
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    pwurple wrote: »
    How? Because the very definition of feminism is to gain general equality with men, not to be sexist and discriminatory.
    That's the theory, but how well does that stand under examination?

    Remember, to gain equality with men, isn't simply a question of gaining rights so that they are equal to men's, but also losing them where they are currently more than equal.

    For example, areas such as parental rights (and enforcement of those rights), or how a 13-year old boy who has sex with his 14-year old girlfriend may be prosecuted, yet she is immune from any such prosecution? Were feminism to truly seek to gain general equality with men then they would actively campaign for equality there also. Indeed, I would challenge anyone to find a single instance (in the last fifty years*) where feminism has actively campaigned for anything that would have resulted in a loss of rights for women.

    If not, for whatever reason and however you wish to rationalize for it, then feminism isn't following your 'very definition' and is instead about gaining general equality with men, only where women are disadvantaged. Unfortunately, that is sexist and discriminatory.
    I don't want to engage in the whataboutery I am gettign dragged into, but assuming every piece of gender-bias is one-sided is blinkered. I agree all your examples those are valid, especially the domestic violence organisations. But that does not negate the existance of other insidous gender related muppetry which women experience.
    Absolutely and I completely agree with you. Women do still experience discrimination, but that doesn't excuse ignoring, underplaying and in some cases denying discrimination against men.
    Evidence for this claim please. You are simply using the term 'feminist' as a synonym for sexist.
    Sorry, my bad; I meant that feminism is equally guilty of this - either through active sexism or by remaining silent when fellow feminists are actively sexist.




    * The Suffreget movement, to give it its dues, did do this, in some cases campaigning against things such as the common practice of wives controlling the family finances and for women to be treated the same as men where it came to capital punishment. Unfortunately, since second-wave feminism, this approach has not been seen.


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    #18
    Standman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Standman


    Many men remain silent when the lads suggest a strip club on a stag night, even if they are uncomfortable with it. Most guys probably have a suspicion that a male close to them has bought sex.

    So I as a man am responsible for violent crimes against women because some guys I know may have went to a strip club or bought sex? Beautiful logic.


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    #19
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba


    I think some or a lot of this has its roots in Gender Studies/Women's Studies and feminism.

    Generally Gender Studies/Women's Studies courses are not neutral with regard to feminism; one is expected to analyse society through a feminist lens.

    Feminist analysis doesn't like to blame women; men and patriarchy are generally seen as the ultimate cause of problems.

    So people are taught/encouraged to think problems in society are ultimately due to men.


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    #20
    keeponhurling
    Registered Users Posts: 5,123 ✭✭✭keeponhurling


    I'm a little surprised that this threads in Gentlemans and not in Media or even Legal Issues.

    That article published in the Times is a blatant case of incitement to hatred, and they were very foolish to publish it.


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    #21
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    iptba wrote: »
    I think some or a lot of this has its roots in Gender Studies/Women's Studies and feminism.

    Generally Gender Studies/Women's Studies courses are not neutral with regard to feminism; one is expected to analyse society through a feminist lens.

    Feminist analysis doesn't like to blame women; men and patriarchy are generally seen as the ultimate cause of problems.

    So people are taught/encouraged to think problems in society are ultimately due to men.

    Generally these degrees are for the not very brightest of the elites in any given society. If Una is so oppressed how come, even though she writes with the logic of a stupid 8 year old, she is writing for the Times and we are not?

    To answe her illogicality.

    1) a man is responsible for his own actions. If he knows a friend has bought sex - which is not the same as rape- it's not his business. He should report immoral actions like rape of course.
    2) generalising about how all men are guilty because some are is disgraceful generalist stereotyping. Replace men with "black men" and you see how bad her logic is.
    3) she asks what we are doing about rapists who are men? Well the "patriarchy" is arresting them, bringing them to trial, and jailing them where the evidence fits. I am unsure what more she wants.


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    #22
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba


    An analogy:

    Sometimes I hear of Dublin-based criminals undertaking robberies outside of Dublin.

    The Gardai should not make any suggestions to outlets that might reduce the risk of robberies - that would be blaming the victims. Instead, what needs to happen is the people of Dublin need to sort out the problem. The people of Dublin encourage robbery-culture.


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    #23
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba


    In response to talk about "rape culture" that all men are supposed to be to blame for, some men's rights activists are talking about "false rape culture" and by analogy saying all women are to blame, to make a point.


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    #24
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    iptba wrote: »
    In response to talk about "rape culture" that all men are supposed to be to blame for, some men's rights activists are talking about "false rape culture" and by analogy saying all women are to blame, to make a point.

    Would that be Paul Elam AKA "A Voice for Men"?

    He's quite a piece of work.

    http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/jury-duty-at-a-rape-trial-acquit/

    (BTW His YouTube account name is "TheHappyMisogynist", I think that is a bit telling.)


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    #25
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,876 ✭✭✭iptba


    B0jangles wrote: »
    iptba wrote:
    In response to talk about "rape culture" that all men are supposed to be to blame for, some men's rights activists are talking about "false rape culture" and by analogy saying all women are to blame, to make a point.
    Would that be Paul Elam AKA "A Voice for Men"?

    He's quite a piece of work.
    Other people too have made the point. The point can be discussed without talking about an individual. I think one can talk about "false rape culture" in the same way as "rape culture" and just as many/most men won't like to be blamed for "rape culture", similarly many/most women won't like to be blamed for "false rape culture". Some people can have difficulties seeing problems with analyses until the genders are reversed.

    Talking about "false rape culture" also highlights that men can be victims of crimes also. Society isn't as black as white as the narrative put out there by many feminist/women's groups e.g. about domestic violence. So much of the discussion of gender is like having only one side represented in a trial (either for the plaintiff or for the defendant) - the jury (public opinion) would be more likely to side with that side if the other side isn't represented to give alternative analyses of the situation.


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    #26
    Henry9
    Registered Users Posts: 418 ✭✭Henry9


    pwurple wrote: »
    How? Because the very definition of feminism is to gain general equality with men, not to be sexist and discriminatory
    That's gas. There's a definition of feminism now?
    I bet that it doesn't stand up to any serious scrutiny.
    I further wager that the end result will be 'but that's not what feminism means to me'.

    Are quotas not discriminatory? How about female offenders being treated more leniently? How about campaigning for the abolition of custodial sentences because prison is not a suitable place for a woman?
    What say the feminist lobby on these issues?

    How about girls outperforming boys in state examinations? How about female entrants outnumbering male entrants in 3rd level by 3 to 2? How about the unequal distribution of child custody awards?
    Do the feminist lobby campaign to end these inequalities?

    How about male suicide statistics? How about male life expectancy versus female? How about male unemployment because of boom time industries being decimated?
    Do the feminist lobby write articles for the IT saying something must be done? Or do they wave them away saying 'the jury is still out on that', or 'that's their own fault because they're not as emotionally intelligent as women', or laughably 'the economic downturn is hitting women disproportionately'?

    So in other words, is feminism concerned with 'general equality', or with being an advocacy group for women?


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    #27
    cantdecide
    Registered Users Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭cantdecide


    I'm pretty sure that most violent crimes are probably perpetrated against men by other men... so where do we stand now? I think the only fair thing I can do is shoot myself as a precaution :confused:


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    #28
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    So you cannot say why it appears to be acceptable, yet somehow you can definitively say that you "would expect most feminists would have a huge problem with in the first place". How?

    Because the media != "most feminists"


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    #29
    Lemming
    Registered Users Posts: 14,148 ✭✭✭✭Lemming


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Because the media != "most feminists"

    That it may be, but it [the media, or rather through it] is also the initial face of feminism that the general populace are presented with. "First impressions" and all that jazz.


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    #30
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    It's no big secret the media is saturated with lefty bean eating yuppies.

    This is politics 101 and I've said the same thing on discussions around Islam, not that feminist are nearly on par with jihadists but there is a similar principal at work, like in any ideology.

    The radicals and extremists are there to make the moderates look good, so they don't seem so bigoted and irrational, so their irrationalities can take hold in the perceptions of ordinary people who simply like to think of themselves as good people. So the more extreme on the continuum the ideology is, the more extreme the moderate scale can become while still appearing reasonable, to those who have swallowed the original sales pitch.

    Yah yeah, it's not all Muslims, yeah yeah, it's not all feminists, yeah yeah I'm a Muslim and I condemn that, yeah yeah, I'm a feminist and I condemn that, all sinking in the slew of denial because the brainwashing worked. And no one likes to admit they are a fool. All denying the very essences and evidences of what's right in front of them. Peer pressure at its finest and most dangerous.

    This is not just feminists fault, but also the fault of do goodie yippies.


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    #31
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    Generally these degrees are for the not very brightest of the elites in any given society. If Una is so oppressed how come, even though she writes with the logic of a stupid 8 year old, she is writing for the Times and we are not?

    To answe her illogicality.

    1) a man is responsible for his own actions. If he knows a friend has bought sex - which is not the same as rape- it's not his business. He should report immoral actions like rape of course.
    2) generalising about how all men are guilty because some are is disgraceful generalist stereotyping. Replace men with "black men" and you see how bad her logic is.
    3) she asks what we are doing about rapists who are men? Well the "patriarchy" is arresting them, bringing them to trial, and jailing them where the evidence fits. I am unsure what more she wants.

    I bet she's sleeping with someone. :p


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