Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

Rightwing · 24-09-2013 05:09PM

A competition without the Irish & Welsh sides in particular will go nowhere.
French clubs would wipe the floor with them,,,and they know it.

irishbucsfan · 24-09-2013 05:13PM

Rightwing wrote: »

A competition without the Irish & Welsh sides in particular will go nowhere.
French clubs would wipe the floor with them,,,and they know it.

Because the Welsh are so dominant in Europe?

molloyjh · 24-09-2013 05:34PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

But the Italian sides who compete in the Amlin aren't the same. They are effectively invitational sides. They don't get the H Cup money and will be gone after this season. So really, there is no point including them really. You can if you want, but you know as well as I do that the FIR won't give them the money and don't consider them to be the same thing.

That's exactly my point. The English Amlin teams get a slice of the HEC money (which reduces what the English HEC teams get) but the Italian teams don't. This means the 2 figures COS provided are not really comparable. To get an accurate overall picture you need to look at the whole picture and then try to compare similar situations (which is what I tried to do in my sexy table). There's absolutely no point in comparing apples and oranges.

irishbucsfan · 24-09-2013 05:40PM

molloyjh wrote: »

That's exactly my point. The English Amlin teams get a slice of the HEC money (which reduces what the English HEC teams get) but the Italian teams don't. This means the 2 figures COS provided are not really comparable. To get an accurate overall picture you need to look at the whole picture and then try to compare similar situations (which is what I tried to do in my sexy table). There's absolutely no point in comparing apples and oranges.

They are not similar situations at all though. The Premiership sides come out of the same league for example. The Premiership sides contest with each other for H Cup spots. You're not really comparing like for like, but you're making it seem as if you are. As you say, no point comparing apples and organges. The Super 10 Italian sides are not the peers of the Rabo franchises, they just come from the same country.

The two figures are comparable of course. And when participation is decided by meritocracy then the figures will be much closer together.

LeinsterDub · 24-09-2013 06:09PM

Why is money, TV or qualifying still being discussed. This is simply and clearly a power grab by the clubs. Both the English and French teams want the ERC gone, replaced by a body they will control.

Phonehead · 24-09-2013 06:26PM

The English really need more than the French, the French in my opinion won't care much for an Anglo French tournament, I'm pretty sure BT won't be happy with viewing figures once Castres 3rd side comes to play Bristol. I think the Premiership clubs underestimate the pulling power of Leinster/Munster and Ulster! Anyway it suits the French not to have a European tournament, if we have nothing next year then I can see an end to an All Europe competition once the French realise their product doesn't need it. The English clubs will just fall further behind the French and the Irish will start to see our top players go to France like is already happening with the Welsh... while bad for the quality of the Pro12 this may not be the end of the World for Irish rugby, it means more opportunities for players to play.

Rightwing · 24-09-2013 06:37PM

Phonehead wrote: »

The English really need more than the French, the French in my opinion won't care much for an Anglo French tournament, I'm pretty sure BT won't be happy with viewing figures once Castres 3rd side comes to play Bristol. I think the Premiership clubs underestimate the pulling power of Leinster/Munster and Ulster! Anyway it suits the French not to have a European tournament, if we have nothing next year then I can see an end to an All Europe competition once the French realise their product doesn't need it. The English clubs will just fall further behind the French and the Irish will start to see our top players go to France like is already happening with the Welsh... while bad for the quality of the Pro12 this may not be the end of the World for Irish rugby, it means more opportunities for players to play.

That's a very good summation apart that line. The French had just begun to take the competition seriously.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience · 24-09-2013 06:42PM

Rightwing wrote: »

That's a very good summation apart that line. The French had just begun to take the competition seriously.

Despite French teams being more successful than any other country in European competitions? God almighty

I mean, how can anyone come to that opinion!? French teams have won more HC's than anyone else and they've won more challenge cups

You're completely wrong

Phonehead · 24-09-2013 06:52PM

It'll never happen but I wonder would the Premiership like to take the Welsh and Scottish and let the Irish and Italians join a Top 18 with Connacht and Zebre going into an 18 team Pro D2.;)

Rightwing · 24-09-2013 06:56PM

Phonehead wrote: »

It'll never happend but I wonder would the Premiership like to take the Welsh and Scottish and let the Irish and Italians join a Top 18 with Connacht and Zebre going into an 18 team Pro D2.;)

That's a good point alright. The French don't need anyone and they know it, so they are calling the shots.

Howard Juneau · 24-09-2013 07:00PM

Rightwing wrote: »

That's a good point alright. The French don't need anyone and they know it, so they are calling the shots.

Perhaps cut the French out altogether, keep the Heineken Cup, increase the English representation to 8 teams & we're all happy!....for once

Phonehead · 24-09-2013 07:05PM

Rightwing wrote: »

That's a good point alright. The French don't need anyone and they know it, so they are calling the shots.

The French are all about business and I actually think the draw of having teams with such prestige and fan bases might excite their Accountants:D

thomond2006 · 24-09-2013 07:05PM

Howard Juneau wrote: »

Perhaps cut the French out altogether, keep the Heineken Cup, increase the English representation to 8 teams & we're all happy!....for once

Cela ne m'intéresse pas.

Phonehead · 24-09-2013 07:09PM

Howard Juneau wrote: »

Perhaps cut the French out altogether, keep the Heineken Cup, increase the English representation to 8 teams & we're all happy!....for once

Europe needs France, lower placed English sides really offer nothing by way of what you would be losing in terms of the French teams. BT still would not be happy - The English need everybody otherwise the next time the TV rights come up for sale it will be a fraction.

Howard Juneau · 24-09-2013 07:09PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

Cela ne m'intéresse pas.

Baisse mon derriére

Howard Juneau · 24-09-2013 07:11PM

Phonehead wrote: »

Europe needs France, lower placed English sides really offer nothing by way of what you would be losing in terms of the French teams. BT still would not be happy - The English need everybody otherwise the next time the TV rights come up for sale it will be a fraction.

I was just trying to inject a little brevity into the thread. Sorry I feckin bothered now!

thomond2006 · 24-09-2013 07:13PM

Howard Juneau wrote: »

I was just trying to inject a little brevity into the thread. Sorry I feckin bothered now!

I knew you weren't being serious...

A little brevity is needed for this thread.

Phonehead · 24-09-2013 07:15PM

Howard Juneau wrote: »

I was just trying to inject a little brevity into the thread. Sorry I feckin bothered now!

I'm confused

you were trying to shorten the thread?? Anyway nobody said your point wasn't valid and I'm sure we have all thought about a tournament without the French, but it simply doesn't make sense to the Accountants making their recommendations in BT/SKY TV/English Premiership teams etc

edit: wit... lol never heard that term for wit... dumb me

McCBrian · 24-09-2013 07:32PM

Shock!!!! Ryan Walkinshaw admitting today that Gloucester are not one of Europe's elite teams lol

http://www.gloucesterrugby.co.uk/news/9115.php#.UkHZS54ueGQ

Thought one of McCaffery's original claims was that they wanted a tournament for the elite teams?

Almaviva · 24-09-2013 07:35PM

Can anyone please give a summary for those of us not following the blow by blow of this issue with the case for and against each side (the substantive issue of a European trophy and how it is structured - not the who sad what, did a deal with whom when, did or didnt attend whatever meeting etc which will all evaporate in time) ?

Is it that French and English clubs believe they have a raw deal(would agree with them) in the HC money share out, have tried to force HEC to restructure it, and have been ignored or werent going to get any change that suited them implemented? And so are prepared to leave it rather than continue as is (seems the sensible move) ?

Swiwi. · 24-09-2013 07:36PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

I knew you weren't being serious...

A little brevity is needed for this thread.

A little levity too wouldn't go amiss.

McCBrian · 24-09-2013 07:46PM

molloyjh wrote: »

There's a few things that we don't know here and that we haven't discussed. For example what happens with the Amlin money? Do the PRL split that 12 ways as well while the Italians split theirs between the 4 clubs they have in that competition? And how much is that worth?

||HEC|Amlin|Total Revenue
||
43.00
|
1.00
|
44.00

||||
English|6/24 in HEC, 6/24 in Amlin|
10.44
|
0.66
|
11.00

Italian|2/24 in HEC, 4/24 in Amlin|
4.50
|
0.00
|
4.50

||||
Harlequins|English revenue divided among 11 clubs|
0.95
|
0.06
|
1.01

Treviso|Italian revenue ringfenced|
2.25
|
0.00
|
2.25

||||
Gloucester|English revenue divided among 11 clubs|
0.95
|
0.06
|
1.01

Cavalieri|Italian revenue ringfenced|
0.00
|
0.00
|
0.00

molloy there is no participation money for Amlin entrants, the winners and runners-up receive prize money, do not know about the semi-finalists (but doubt it). amended your figures above.

So Italy get 4.5M for providing 6 teams to European competition and PRL get 11M for providing 12

Phonehead · 24-09-2013 07:47PM

Almaviva wrote: »

Can anyone please give a summary for those of us not following the blow by blow of this issue with the case for and against each side (the substantive issue of a European trophy and how it is structured - not the who sad what, did a deal with whom when, did or didnt attend whatever meeting etc which will all evaporate in time) ?

Is it that French and English clubs believe they have a raw deal(would agree with them) in the HC money share out, have tried to force HEC to restructure it, and have been ignored or werent going to get any change that suited them implemented? And so are prepared to leave it rather than continue as is (seems the sensible move) ?

Well both sides have used fairness, equality, greater good of the game in Europe etc at some stage! basically it boils down to currency and control. The English want more and to wrestle control away from the ERC, the French say what the hell let's tag a long and see can we get more and the PRO12 are probably all wondering WTF, let's just pull the duvet over our head and wait for teh bad men to stop.

Almaviva · 24-09-2013 08:02PM

Phonehead wrote: »

Well both sides have used fairness, equality, greater good of the game in Europe etc at some stage! basically it boils down to currency and control. The English want more and to wrestle control away from the ERC, the French say what the hell let's tag a long and see can we get more and the PRO12 are probably all wondering WTF, let's just pull the duvet over our head and wait for teh bad men to stop.

And is the balanced view then that the English and French clubs probably are correct and deserve both more coin and control, and that the Pro12/other nations, having had too good a deal for too long and are resisting the change through first ignoring their claims, then, when it is put up to them, by whatever fair or fowl means they think will preserve their position as far as possible (a seperate debate being whether pursuing your own self interest is legitimate or unfairly selfish being a side debate) ?

Rightwing · 24-09-2013 08:07PM

Howard Juneau wrote: »

Perhaps cut the French out altogether, keep the Heineken Cup, increase the English representation to 8 teams & we're all happy!....for once

True, in such a scenario, I couldn't see beyond Munster & Leinster winning, perhaps the tigers the odd time.

thomond2006 · 24-09-2013 08:10PM

Rightwing wrote: »

True, in such a scenario, I couldn't see beyond Munster & Leinster winning, perhaps the tigers the odd time.

It wouldn't mean much. The French offer so much to the tournament in terms of star power.

24-09-2013 08:23PM

Almaviva wrote: »

And is the balanced view then that the English and French clubs probably are correct and deserve both more coin and control, and that the Pro12/other nations, having had too good a deal for too long and are resisting the change through first ignoring their claims, then, when it is put up to them, by whatever fair or fowl means they think will preserve their position as far as possible (a seperate debate being whether pursuing your own self interest is legitimate or unfairly selfish being a side debate) ?

Not really. Whatever way it's painted the English or French teams are not competitively disadvantaged by the money divided up from European competitions. There are reasonable complaints about qualification from the Rabo that should be addressed but that's about it.

Ultimately it's a power struggle and, although some posters would like to deny that the outcome of this struggle will determine the make up of European club rugby for the next twenty years, it will.

Anyone who knows anything about sporting organisations broadly is only too aware of this.

Almaviva · 24-09-2013 08:27PM

wittycynic wrote: »

Not really. Whatever way it's painted the English or French teams are not competitively disadvantaged by the money divided up from European competitions.

Surely if they have fewer teams in the tournament they are competitively disadvantaged ? More in the pot, more chance of winning.

And further disadvantaged by a smaller proportional share of the cash loot ?

Phonehead · 24-09-2013 09:22PM

Almaviva wrote: »

Surely if they have fewer teams in the tournament they are competitively disadvantaged ? More in the pot, more chance of winning.

And further disadvantaged by a smaller proportional share of the cash loot ?

Well let's call a spade a spade here about participation - less Pro12 does not mean more chance of English or French winners! as it stands you'll only cut the Pro12 teams that were never going to win the tournament. The English businesses (that's what they are) need to compete financially against the French and not just compete to get the box office players because they can't but they risk even losing the good players. They were offered huge sums by BT but BT want's the European games with this, something the English can't provide so they are now looking to remove the ERC and wrestle control away. The English are trying to make out that they are in a strong position but they could in the long run commit financial suicide if this bluff ends in everybody going their seperate ways.

irishbucsfan · 24-09-2013 09:24PM

Almaviva wrote: »

Surely if they have fewer teams in the tournament they are competitively disadvantaged ? More in the pot, more chance of winning.

And further disadvantaged by a smaller proportional share of the cash loot ?

In theory I suppose yes, but in practice it rarely turns out that way.

The problems are more at the bottom end than the top end. For example, why are the likes of Zebre and Edinburgh guarranteed a place (and the money) every year when superior French/English teams aren't. Why are there 10-12 Rabo teams in the elite European competition every year etc.

Ultimately, the only functional difference for viewers will be a smaller H Cup with a more equal distribution of sides between the 3 European leagues. And hopefully an improved Amlin tournament that the Celtic nations will no longer completely ignore.

Of course there are the hystericals who believe this will destroy rugby as we know it and will lead to us all living in some sort of post apocalyptic wasteland.

Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

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