Burka ban

Brown Bomber · 24-09-2013 12:39AM

Banbh wrote: »

Muslim women wear it because they fear for their lives if they don't and not just in the Middle East but in Britain.

PS I don't engage with Brown Bomber' nonsense.

Here is a normal, single, Muslim girl who exposes your own nonsense.

http://convertconfessions.wordpress.com/2013/03/06/okay-but-why-do-you-wear-hijab-my-reasons/

No, it’s not because my dad made me, it’s not because it’s the cultural norm in my country, and it’s not because I’m worried that people will think I’m promiscuous if I don’t…
Modesty

I feel very protected and safe in hijab. It really does take away a lot of the pressure of men looking at you. When I didn’t wear hijab, guys would ask me out, touch me, just be GROSS. Now, no one does anything that makes me feel uncomfortable. No one touches me. It’s very powerful.
To Be a Representation

Wearing hijab gives me the amazing ability to be Super Muslim. Everyone knows what religion I follow when I walk down the street, so there is an opportunity to answer questions that they may have.
To Prevent Myself from Doing Wrong

Every time I look in the mirror, I am reminded that I am so incredibly blessed that Allah (swt) chose me to be Muslim.

To Remind Myself of What Really Matters

Yes, I was much more attractive to the general population before I wore hijab, but it didn’t mean anything. It is so much more important to work on what’s inside of you – to perfect your religion, to better your personality, to increase your knowledge – than to work out your calves and curl your hair. Really, it is. I know. I promise you.

For My Future Husband

A final, very important reason. No, I’m not married. And I might not be married for a long time, but I already love my future husband and respect him.

I’m not under any pressure to wear hijab – and I wasn’t when I first started wearing it. I love it. And I am not taking it off. InshaAllah, not now. Not ever. And I don’t care what that means for my job, for what people think of me, or for anything except for the fact that it pleases God. The rest of the reasons are just support of the first reason – and doing something for God is doing it for the Best of reasons.

+++++++++++++

Now, is it possible you can leave this seemingly happy and moral girl alone to live her life as best as she sees fit?

MrPudding · 24-09-2013 12:44AM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Brown Bomber wrote: »

No answer Banbh?

What if I change "Muslim" to "black" is it racist? Or is that just another man-made construct?

I feel privileged that, as a WHITE man, I am capable of not sexually assaulting or raping every woman I meet, irrespective of what she is wearing. What is it about some BLACK men that they apparently can't?

Are you intentionally trying to assign a meaning to my post that was not intended, or did you innocently miss the point.

Thanks, by the way, for reposting the t-shirt pic. I had been looking for it to post in this thread but could not find it.

MrP

Brown Bomber · 24-09-2013 12:45AM

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Given that Mr P is referencing how the burka comes from muslims countries, where women wear it to protect themselves from the men, if it is islamophobic, then it is the muslim men and women who are being islamophobic.

<SNIP>

just to clarify - it is not Islamophobic to say "I'm proud to be a non-Muslim because some of them can't help but rape people".

Have a listen to yourself...:rolleyes:

Brown Bomber · 24-09-2013 12:47AM

MrPudding wrote: »

Are you intentionally trying to assign a meaning to my post that was not intended, or did you innocently miss the point.

Thanks, by the way, for reposting the t-shirt pic. I had been looking for it to post in this thread but could not find it.

MrP

Why don't you answer the question?

When "Muslim" is replaced by "Black" (man) in your statement is your statement racist?

Looks 100% racist to me. So why is it okay to make the same statement about a Muslim?

Mark Hamill · 24-09-2013 01:19AM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Brown Bomber wrote: »

just to clarify - it is not Islamophobic to say "I'm proud to be a non-Muslim because some of them can't help but rape people".

That is not what either I nor Mr. P had said, lets try again:

The burka, while a cultural creation, only exists in certain muslim social groups. Does it not say something about how those muslim groups view their men? Should other men not feel proud that their social groups don't automatically consider them uncontrollable sexual predators?

Mark Hamill · 24-09-2013 01:28AM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Here is a normal, single, Muslim girl who exposes your own nonsense.

http://convertconfessions.wordpress.com/2013/03/06/okay-but-why-do-you-wear-hijab-my-reasons/

Yeah... sometimes I think some people forget the most important thing about debating on this forum. From that blog post, right at the start:

No, it’s not because my dad made me, it’s not because it’s the cultural norm in my country, and it’s not because I’m worried that people will think I’m promiscuous if I don’t…

Why DO I Wear Hijab?
Because God Told Me To

We are atheists. In our view, there is no god. God isn't telling you anything, your (male) religious leaders are. Your holy book isn't holy, its propaganda and indoctrination, written by (long dead) men. Everything you believe about your god comes from some man, thinking up more ways to control people. Quoting the book, referencing the men, doesn't strengthen your argument here.

Delirium · 24-09-2013 08:39AM

I'm religious and support the ban

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Here is a normal, single, Muslim girl who exposes your own nonsense.

http://convertconfessions.wordpress.com/2013/03/06/okay-but-why-do-you-wear-hijab-my-reasons/

No, it’s not because my dad made me, it’s not because it’s the cultural norm in my country, and it’s not because I’m worried that people will think I’m promiscuous if I don’t…
Modesty

So far no problems. The woman wants to dress modestly, then fire ahead.

I feel very protected and safe in hijab. It really does take away a lot of the pressure of men looking at you. When I didn’t wear hijab, guys would ask me out, touch me, just be GROSS. Now, no one does anything that makes me feel uncomfortable. No one touches me. It’s very powerful.
To Be a Representation

Oh dear. So she feels unsafe and sexually threatened into wearing the hijab. This is not a good argument against the ban. This is not a woman choosing to wear it but a woman forced to wear it because she feels she will be approached(!!) and/or touched by men. A choice made out of fear is not a choice freely made.

Wearing hijab gives me the amazing ability to be Super Muslim. Everyone knows what religion I follow when I walk down the street, so there is an opportunity to answer questions that they may have.
To Prevent Myself from Doing Wrong

The visual equivalent of walking down the street singing, "I'm a Muslim" isn't a convincing argument either.

Every time I look in the mirror, I am reminded that I am so incredibly blessed that Allah (swt) chose me to be Muslim.

To Remind Myself of What Really Matters

Yes, I was much more attractive to the general population before I wore hijab, but it didn’t mean anything. It is so much more important to work on what’s inside of you – to perfect your religion, to better your personality, to increase your knowledge – than to work out your calves and curl your hair. Really, it is. I know. I promise you.

All the above can be done without the burka.

For My Future Husband

A final, very important reason. No, I’m not married. And I might not be married for a long time, but I already love my future husband and respect him.

She doesn't know who this hypothetical person is, how can she love and respect him?

I’m not under any pressure to wear hijab – and I wasn’t when I first started wearing it.

That's not what she said earlier in the post.

I feel very protected and safe in hijab. It really does take away a lot of the pressure of men looking at you. When I didn’t wear hijab, guys would ask me out, touch me, just be GROSS. Now, no one does anything that makes me feel uncomfortable. No one touches me.

I love it. And I am not taking it off. InshaAllah, not now. Not ever. And I don’t care what that means for my job, for what people think of me, or for anything except for the fact that it pleases God. The rest of the reasons are just support of the first reason – and doing something for God is doing it for the Best of reasons.

+++++++++++++

Now, is it possible you can leave this seemingly happy and moral girl alone to live her life as best as she sees fit?

I wouldn't consider the woman happy based on her feeling of being unsafe/afraid of men without the hijab.

I'm not in favor of a government telling people what they can or can't wear, but that blog post was a bad choice for arguing against the ban.

Banbh · 24-09-2013 09:01AM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Koth: So far no problems. The woman wants to dress modestly, then fire ahead.

My dear mother, a devout Catholic, would be horrified if she thought that her dress was immodest because we can see her nose and chin.

In parts of Israel, super-jews spit on women who have bare arms. In Saudi Arabia mullahs hit Western women on the legs with sticks. It must be tough on women to know what bullies want them to wear and I suspect that the rules change to keep them guessing.

jank · 24-09-2013 09:02AM

I'm religious and support the ban

robindch wrote: »

The preacher is quoted as saying that he wanted to “punish his wife for rebelling against Allah’s orders”, and that he wanted women to learn from the example of his dead wife.

Are you saying that this homicidal nutter might be wrong when he believes he has access to absolute knowledge?

The 'Son of Sam' believed that his neigherbours whom was possesed by a demon commanded him to carry out his own killings. There will always be nutcases in the world who think God, Jesus, Aliens, Alex Fergusan is commanding them to commit certain acts.

As I said, please show me the text in the Quran that permits one to kill their wife if they dont wear a viel.

jank · 24-09-2013 09:11AM

I'm religious and support the ban

Banbh wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maryam_Namazie

Following from Michael Nugent's radio comments, I just had to google Maryam Namazie as I had not heard of her before She really is a remarkable woman. I wonder if she could be persuaded by Atheist Ireland or the Humanist Association to speak in Ireland?

Occupation: Central Committee member of the Worker-communist Party of Iran :eek: Is it 1948 again?

Banbh · 24-09-2013 09:28AM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

She's a communist? What a woman! She may be a red but that's a red herring.

(I first read Marx in the 1960s and have never found a better explanation of the economic and social forces that move society. If someone comes up with one I, and I presume Maryam, will accept it.)

Scotty # · 24-09-2013 12:11PM

I'm religious and support the ban

MrPudding wrote: »

Seriously? Islamophobia? FFS. Do I like seeing veiled woman? No. I hate it. Do I hate Muslims? No.

"Banning this garment will not help these women, but lets ban it anyway..." seems to be the general consensus for the pro-ban side. Other pro-ban comments have said how it makes them feel uncomfortable to see these women on the streets. "They should go back to their own country". Etc, Etc...

Please don't try and tell me you don't see any Islamophobia in this thread or behind the ban in France. It stinks of it!!

I don't like seeing veiled women either. Do I think she should be forced to remove it to make me feel more comfortable?? Absolutely not!

BTW, the reason behind the french ban is to protect Frances culture and traditions. It has absolutely nothing to do with making these women's lives better.

robindch · 24-09-2013 12:22PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Scotty # wrote: »

BTW, the reason behind the french ban is to protect Frances culture and traditions. It has absolutely nothing to do with making these women's lives better.

[Citation needed]

MrPudding · 24-09-2013 12:29PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Why don't you answer the question?

When "Muslim" is replaced by "Black" (man) in your statement is your statement racist?

Looks 100% racist to me. So why is it okay to make the same statement about a Muslim?

OK, I am fairly tired of your, presumably, willful and deliberate habit of mis-interpreting the posts of those you don't agree with, but I will humour you on this occasion.

I am not the one saying muslim men can't control themselves. I am not the one saying they will rape women that aren't covered up. The people saying that are the Imams that demand that women be covered up and, liek the article you posted a link to yourself, some of the women that "choose" to cover up.

What I was attempting with my post was to point out that this argument for covering up was bullsh1t. I was not actually suggesting that I beleived uncovered women would be raped by every muslim man they meet. Nor was I suggesting that muslim men are somehow inferior to me when it comes to sexual control. But then, you alreayd knew that, didn't you. Men seem to me, for the most part, to be perfectly capable of not raping or otherwise sexually assaulting women who are not covered up. Men that seem capable of controling themselves include, but are not linited to, privilidged white men (such as myself), black men, muslim men, atheist men, theist men, tall men, short men, straight men, gay men and, generally, most men.

The only people suggesting that muslim men are uncontrollable sex predators are the imans using these men's apparent inability to control their own sexual urges as a reason to oppress women.

Is that clear enough for you? I appreciate that this is yuor typical MO for discussions, but it is really getting quite tiresome.

MrP

MrPudding · 24-09-2013 12:56PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Scotty # wrote: »

"Banning this garment will not help these women, but lets ban it anyway..." seems to be the general consensus for the pro-ban side. Other pro-ban comments have said how it makes them feel uncomfortable to see these women on the streets. "They should go back to their own country". Etc, Etc...

I am not sure it is quite that simple. I think ultimately the banning will help the women, perhaps not in the short term, but in the longer term it might. I think it is important for the state, and other organisations, that they don’t approve. I think it is perfectly acceptable to not approve of the veil, just the same as I think it is perfectly acceptable to not approve of FGM, forced marriages (of adults as well as children) and many other cultural or religious practices that don’t fit with our evil western ways.

Scotty # wrote: »

Please don't try and tell me you don't see any Islamophobia in this thread or behind the ban in France. It stinks of it!!

I have a severe dislike of the term islamophobia. It seem to be a tool to stop criticism or discussion. Perhaps you could explain exactly what it is and how one might express concern with certain practices, or critice islam, as one might do with any other religion, without being accused of islamophobia. I presume it is allowable to criticise islam or Islamic culture, isn’t it?

Scotty # wrote: »

I don't like seeing veiled women either. Do I think she should be forced to remove it to make me feel more comfortable?? Absolutely not!

I don’t think it is a particularly good reason either, when taken on its own. But when it is added to the other reason why one might reasonably think it should be banned in certain circumstances, it is perfectly valid.

Scotty # wrote: »

BTW, the reason behind the french ban is to protect Frances culture and traditions. It has absolutely nothing to do with making these women's lives better.

Unless you have any evidence to the contrary I would suggest that, like it makes people uncomfortable, the protection of France’s culture and traditions is likely just another reason on the “why it should be banned in certain circumstances” pile.

MrP

robindch · 24-09-2013 12:57PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Brown Bomber wrote: »

What if I change "Muslim" to "black" is it racist? Or is that just another man-made construct?

Two points to this silly comparison of yours:

1. Islam, like every other religion, is a "man-made construct" and it's perfectly fine here in A+A -- though obviously not in most if not all societies controlled according to islamic rules + custom -- to criticize it.

2. In the sentence, "I hate celery", changing the word "celery" to "blacks" would certainly suggest that I'm a racist. However, while I do hate celery, I don't hate "blacks" and since the two words, sentences and meanings you've suggesting swapping are entirely unrelated, I've no idea what you're trying to do beyond being aggressively, if stupidly, argumentative.

If you cool down and spend your time putting a peaceful, reasonable argument together, instead of posing intemperate hypotheticals, you might win some support for your point of view.

Delirium · 24-09-2013 12:59PM

I'm religious and support the ban

According to this page on wikipedia, it was all face coverings that were banned in public in France. Not just the burka.

MrPudding · 24-09-2013 01:09PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

koth wrote: »

According to this page on wikipedia, it was all face coverings that were banned in public in France. Not just the burka.

But but but... Islamophobia!!!

MrP

inocybe · 24-09-2013 01:32PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

koth wrote: »

According to this page on wikipedia, it was all face coverings that were banned in public in France. Not just the burka.

Whatever about the oppression or not of the wearers, this is the important thing, to preserve the right of citizens not to have to interact with a blank mask. I have the right to see the face of a nurse, teacher, or anyone I have to interact with.

Gbear · 24-09-2013 02:43PM

I'm religious and support the ban

inocybe wrote: »

Whatever about the oppression or not of the wearers, this is the important thing, to preserve the right of citizens not to have to interact with a blank mask. I have the right to see the face of a nurse, teacher, or anyone I have to interact with.

You do? I must've missed that in rights school.

Banbh · 24-09-2013 02:51PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

So what you're saying Mr P is that all Imams are rapists.
(Sorry, I couldn't help myself).

Cabaal · 24-09-2013 03:24PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

I think there needs to be a extremist sect of the FSM created, followers must walk around wearing hockey masks as part of their religious beliefs, should go down well with everyone.
:pac:

What do mean i can't teach a class wearing this?

Scotty # · 24-09-2013 03:58PM

I'm religious and support the ban

inocybe wrote: »

I have the right to see the face of a nurse...

No you don't.

Where do you stand on sunglasses? Do you ask people on the street to remove them so you can see who they are too?

This debate is not about people while working. It's about people minding their own business on their own time as they go about their own lives and not being told to conform with some kind of state controlled dress code.

robindch · 24-09-2013 04:08PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Scotty # wrote: »

It's about people minding their own business on their own time as they go about their own lives and not being told to conform with some kind of state controlled dress code.

Freedom of dress, like most other freedoms, isn't something that islamic fundamentalists are well-known for supporting, I have to say.

You do realize you've just defeated your own argument, grandly and entirely, don't you?

Scotty # · 24-09-2013 04:26PM

I'm religious and support the ban

robindch wrote: »

Freedom of dress, like most other freedoms, isn't something that islamic fundamentalists are well-known for supporting, I have to say.

You do realize you've just defeated your own argument, grandly and entirely, don't you?

How so?

You want to swap "you must wear this" for "you must not wear this". I want to leave people free to dress as they choose. I think your way of doing things is much much closer to the fundamentalists than mine.

Banbh · 24-09-2013 04:40PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

The face mask is not an item of clothing. It is a disguise for the express purpose of preventing the woman's participation in society and interacting with other citizens. It dehumanises her, reducing her to the level of domestic animal and this is the intention of the men who enforce this abomination.

Piliger · 24-09-2013 04:46PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Scotty # wrote: »

No you don't.

Where do you stand on sunglasses? Do you ask people on the street to remove them so you can see who they are too?

This debate is not about people while working. It's about people minding their own business on their own time as they go about their own lives and not being told to conform with some kind of state controlled dress code.

I believe you have just made a nonsense of your own argument. If this is all you can come up with, it adds up to abject surrender.

Piliger · 24-09-2013 04:48PM

I'm non-religious and do not support the ban

Banbh wrote: »

The face mask is not an item of clothing. It is a disguise for the express purpose of preventing the woman's participation in society and interacting with other citizens. It dehumanises her, reducing her to the level of domestic animal and this is the intention of the men who enforce this abomination.

Absolutely right. And to be a human being in the presence of another human being who's identity and humanity has been so thoroughly erased and surpressed, is degrading in and of itself.

Scotty # · 24-09-2013 04:58PM

I'm religious and support the ban

Piliger wrote: »

I believe you have just made a nonsense of your own argument. If this is all you can come up with, it adds up to abject surrender.

..but yet you have no counter argument. I see.

The poster states they have the right to view others faces. I say they don't. You say I've surrendered. Nonsense indeed. :rolleyes:

Turtwig · 24-09-2013 05:11PM

I'm religious and support the ban

This is thread is suddenly reminding me of John Cleese's argument/contradiction clinic.

Burka ban

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