Burka ban

Scotty, you are missing the point - probably deliberately.
The women who are obliged to wear these demeaning covers are the victims.

Correct Mr.P

The pro-ban argument is that these women are victims of abuse/oppression. The solution being put forward is to make wearing the burka an offence, thus criminalising them. That's like charging someone for allowing themselves be assaulted.

I have no doubt that some women are forced to wear the burka but I also believe there are many (particularly in Europe) who choose freely to wear it. By banning the wearing of it you are putting those forced to wear it into a very difficult situation (even more oppressed?) and you are denying the others their religious freedom. It's lose/lose. Unless of course your aim is to not be 'subjected' to seeing them at all, a.k.a Islamophobia, the main motive behind the ban in my opinion. In that case it's a very effective.

Banbh wrote: »

Fines will stop this practice...

It hasn't in France. Wearing of the burka is permitted while traveling to/from a mosque and the police can not force a wearer to remove it. It just means these women are confined to their homes more. But hey, out of sight, out of mind!

Banbh wrote: »

I don't accept the 'freedom of religion' argument and think the concept is false. Freedom is for people.

Freedom for people to practice their religion?

Banbh wrote: »

On a happier note I see that a Swiss canton has today joined France and Belgium in banning the imprisonment of women in these religious coverings. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2013/09/201392355440735676.html

It's only imprisonment for those who don't wish to wear it. There seems to be plenty of evidence that women throughout the UK, France, etc wish to wear the burka and live by their cultural traditions.

Scotty # wrote: »

Freedom for people to practice their religion?

The wearing of a burka or hijab is not a requirement of Islam, it is purely a cultural artifact.

I do agree that an outright ban does nothing to help women, forcing them into de facto house arrest whether it's their choice to wear it or not. I think that more needs to be done to inform women that the wearing of a burka is a choice, and to inform them that if they are being forced to wear it that there is legal support available to them.

Scotty # wrote: »

Correct Mr.P

The pro-ban argument is that these women are victims of abuse/oppression. The solution being put forward is to make wearing the burka an offence, thus criminalising them. That's like charging someone for allowing themselves be assaulted.

This is unfortunate, but is yet another aspect of the insidiousness of the veil. It is the gift that keeps on giving, as it were.

Scotty # wrote: »

I have no doubt that some women are forced to wear the burka but I also believe there are many (particularly in Europe) who choose freely to wear it.

I really do question how many people choose to wear it, where "choose" has its everyday meaning. When I go to a restaurant I "choose" what I am going to eat. When a woman "chooses" to wear the veil does she have that same degree of choice as I do? I don't doubt that there are some women that genuinely choose to wear the veil, but I think they do other women, those that don't have the choice and must wear it, a disservice.

Scotty # wrote: »

By banning the wearing of it you are putting those forced to wear it into a very difficult situation (even more oppressed?) and you are denying the others their religious freedom. It's lose/lose. Unless of course your aim is to not be 'subjected' to seeing them at all, a.k.a Islamophobia, the main motive behind the ban in my opinion. In that case it's a very effective.

Seriously? Islamophobia? FFS. Do I like seeing veiled woman? No. I hate it. Do I hate Muslims? No. I do feel uncomfortable seeing women de-humanised and covered up. It disgusts me that people are treated in this way. That said, I feel uncomfortable when I see parent hitting their child in the street, is parentaphobia? I also don't like seeing boyfriends being abusive to their girlfriends, as one occasionally sees in nightclubs, is that boyfriendaphobia? I hope not, I am a boyfriend and I dislike self-hate.

MrP

MrPudding wrote: »

Seriously? Islamophobia? FFS. Do I like seeing veiled woman? No. I hate it. Do I hate Muslims? No. I do feel uncomfortable seeing women de-humanised and covered up. It disgusts me that people are treated in this way. That said, I feel uncomfortable when I see parent hitting their child in the street, is parentaphobia? I also don't like seeing boyfriends being abusive to their girlfriends, as one occasionally sees in nightclubs, is that boyfriendaphobia? I hope not, I am a boyfriend and I dislike self-hate.
MrP

Exactly. All well said.

I am sick of this constant harping on about Islamophobia. A phobia is an irrational thing based on nothing but prejudice. This burka thing has nothing to do with irrational prejudice - it is ALL about real concern about women's rights and the abuse of individuals by stripping them of their human right of being an individual.
It is also about OUR rights as a culture. This kind of anonymising and stripping of a person's identity is deeply and wholly against everything we in Ireland hold dear. It is appalling that we are standing back and allowing this kind of thing to be imported in to our country without a thought.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

If "our culture" involves checking under our beds every night for women dressed in clothes we don't like and involves criminalising freedom of expression and religion then I say **** our culture.

***Under our bed*** ???

By the way, can you point to other occasions of you standing up for Muslim womens rights? Is it only when you support criminalising their culture that you support their rights?

It's only when it's in OUR country. And no one said anything about criminalising it.

You appear to have lost touch with any reality in this debate :rolleyes:

Brown Bomber wrote: »

What makes you think they need you to "inform" them about anything? Why do you assume you know more than they do?

I think you're being overly harsh on Kylith. With anything be it social anxiety or domestic abuse sufferers very often need to be let known that there options and that there is support out there. This isn't a case of someone thinking they're the superior person. To presume so is arrogant and preposterous. This is simply about informing people, who for whatever reason, may be reluctant or oblivious that there is help and support out there. It's not about presuming you know something others don't; it's about providing contingencies for various scenarios.

I should also add, you knocking people for making presumptions lands back in your face. By being so dismissive you're effectively assuming situations to be a certain mode or manner. Neither of us actually know the reality. But society needs to have contingencies for people who for whatever reason end up in situations where they may need help. To assume that nobody is in need of help is not reflective of a caring or open society.

I suspect that the term islamophobia was introduced to equate with anti-semitic (a term that has ceased to have meaning by being used to include any anti-Israeli sentiment).

Should other religions have a word? Prodophobic? Anti-cathlithic? And why not a word for those who have a phobia about agnostics? Misagnosist.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I believe we have an obligation to help anyone who asks for our help - But who is asking?

Modesty is important to Muslims. Not just Muslim men but Muslim women also. For some wearing the Burka or the Niqab is an act of modesty and worship to God. They Muslim women who choose to wear Islamic dress care not what some feminists or atheists think because they view them as immoral and they don't want their "help". What they want is to be left alone to practice their religion and not be assaullted on the streets for being Muslim due to the hysteria that this non-issue is whipping-up.

Of course this is a gift to nationalists like our "OUR COUNTRY" friend as Muslims are the low-hanging fruit who it is socially acceptable to be prejudiced about. Case in point MrPudding's raping Muslims comment.

Do you think these veil-wearers can't thinl for themselves? That they need white men to patronise them?

They are the women of RAWA



http://www.rawa.org/rawa.html

Err,

I think it should be there choice. Do you think all women who cover their faces are doing it of their own volition? Certain women may need to be informed about their options. That is all I'm saying. Please don't go squaring my opinion into a round hole where it doesn't belong.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Should be easy to find examples of women who wish to wear their cultural dress who agree with you so. Off ye go...

When I lived in Egypt I made friends with SINGLE girls who CHOSE to wear various forms of veils. They did so because they valued modesty highly and felt that in being modest it brought them closer to God.

None of them viewed themselves as "goods" or "lesser animals" that is just from your own skewed, orientalist perspective. They would laugh at your pontificating and moralising when you have no understanding of their lives. They couldn't care less what you think, they don't need you "saving them".

These women wear the veil because they think themselves so attractive that any part of their face showing is enough to drive men wild. That is not modesty of any kind.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

What if I change "Muslim" to "black" is it racist? Or is that just another man-made construct?


I feel privileged that, as a WHITE man, I am capable of not sexually assaulting or raping every woman I meet, irrespective of what she is wearing. What is it about some BLACK men that they apparently can't?

Given that Mr P is referencing how the burka comes from muslims countries, where women wear it to protect themselves from the men, if it is islamophobic, then it is the muslim men and women who are being islamophobic.