Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

Winters · 23-09-2013 10:34AM

This is no longer about fairness or qualification. I suspect if it ever really was.

This is the deregulation of elite club rugby, the breakaway of a sport in much the same way Premier League soccer broke away from the English FA.

McCafferty, Smith, Goze, Wray, Craig, Kennedy, Boudjellal, Wheeler, Lorenzetti, Rowe, Tom et al - thanks a bunch!

It was never professionalism that threatened rugby, it was privatisation.

irishbucsfan · 23-09-2013 10:44AM

Winters wrote: »

This is no longer about fairness or qualification. I suspect if it ever really was.

This is the deregulation of elite club rugby, the breakaway of a sport in much the same way Premier League soccer broke away from the English FA.

McCafferty, Smith, Goze, Wray, Craig, Kennedy, Boudjellal, Wheeler, Lorenzetti, Rowe, Tom et al - thanks a bunch!

It was never professionalism that threatened rugby, it was privatisation.

Except its being backed by the RFU...

Cookiemunster · 23-09-2013 10:44AM

Winters wrote: »

This is no longer about fairness or qualification. I suspect if it ever really was.

This is the deregulation of elite club rugby, the breakaway of a sport in much the same way Premier League soccer broke away from the English FA.

McCafferty, Smith, Goze, Wray, Craig, Kennedy, Boudjellal, Wheeler, Lorenzetti, Rowe, Tom et al - thanks a bunch!

It was never professionalism that threatened rugby, it was privatisation.

This misconception needs to stop. The top division clubs in England broke away from the Football League and created the FA Premier League. ie. a league fully sanctioned by their governing body. It's the complete opposite of what's happening with PRL and LNR.

Cookiemunster · 23-09-2013 10:48AM

ColmH81 wrote: »

Do you have a link to it? I missed it..

Here. Basically they say that the ERC is the only show in town and they will not give permission for any other competition involving French clubs.

dtpc191991 · 23-09-2013 10:48AM

Two things have happened which work greatly in our favour. The fact that the FFR and SANZAR are hostile to the new tournament. Pressure from SANZAR is exactly the kind of thing that could force the IRB to act and kill this club run tournament where it stands.

irishbucsfan · 23-09-2013 10:49AM

Cookiemunster wrote: »

This misconception needs to stop. The top division clubs in England broke away from the Football League and created the FA Premier League. ie. a league fully sanctioned by their governing body. It's the complete opposite of what's happening with PRL and LNR.

It's completely different because no one is breaking away from anyone. The RFU are firmly behind Premiership Rugby, as they've said, and the FFR will end up behind LNR.

This has nothing to do with the privatisation of the sport. To claim it does just displays a complete lack of understanding of what they are falling out over. It's the organisation of ONE competition. And it's not even going to be entirely private.

There would be an equivalent in soccer if UEFA had screwed up the formation of the Champions League. But they didn't and so there is no equivalent.

mooonpie · 23-09-2013 10:51AM

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Did you not see the FFR statement last night? They are most definitely taking on the LNR.

But the important question is "Why?"
Are they taking them on for the sake of the ERC?
Or do they see this stance as an opportunity to bargain with LNR?

FFR: 'All stakeholders are currently engaged in discussions and a mediation process initiated by the IRB and the ERC. Communications published today therefore appear irrelevant and inappropriate.' (Google Translate of: http://www.ffr.fr/index.php/ffr/historique/2013/coupe_d_europe_mise_au_point_de_la_ffr)
LNR: 'Ok FFR, we'll give the national side more time with, and access to, our players'
FFR: 'Wahey! LNR can do whatever they like'

ColmH81 · 23-09-2013 10:57AM

dtpc191991 wrote: »

Two things have happened which work greatly in our favour. The fact that the FFR and SANZAR are hostile to the new tournament. Pressure from SANZAR is exactly the kind of thing that could force the IRB to act and kill this club run tournament where it stands.

Where do SANZAR come into it?

Howard Juneau · 23-09-2013 10:58AM

ColmH81 wrote: »

Where do SANZAR come into it?

There were rumors of the saffer teams looking elsewhere for club tourneys

Cookiemunster · 23-09-2013 10:59AM

mooonpie wrote: »

But the important question is "Why?"
Are they taking them on for the sake of the ERC?
Or do they see this stance as an opportunity to bargain with LNR?

FFR: 'All stakeholders are currently engaged in discussions and a mediation process initiated by the IRB and the ERC. Communications published today therefore appear irrelevant and inappropriate.' (Google Translate of: http://www.ffr.fr/index.php/ffr/historique/2013/coupe_d_europe_mise_au_point_de_la_ffr)
LNR: 'Ok FFR, we'll give the national side more time with, and access to, our players'
FFR: 'Wahey! LNR can do whatever they like'

Who knows what the FFR will ultimately do. But at the moment their public position is firmly against their clubs.

irishbucsfan · 23-09-2013 11:00AM

ColmH81 wrote: »

Where do SANZAR come into it?

European sides will be richer by about 1 million each according to an article from yesterday. SANZAR sides already can't compete financially and now they're falling even further behind. They're afraid they'll have no chance of keeping their players.

Winters · 23-09-2013 11:00AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Except its being backed by the RFU...

Brett Gosper and Jean Pierre Lux have both said the RFU oppose the breakaway.

However I do suspect both RFU and FFR will barter with their respective clubs and then back the breakaway in the end. Money talks.

Cookiemunster · 23-09-2013 11:03AM

Howard Juneau wrote: »

There were rumors of the saffer teams looking elsewhere for club tourneys

SANZAR has agreed to 6 SA teams from 2016 so it looks like they're now happy to stay with super rugby.

irishbucsfan · 23-09-2013 11:05AM

Winters wrote: »

Brett Gosper and Jean Pierre Lux have both said the RFU oppose the breakaway.

However I do suspect both RFU and FFR will barter with their respective clubs and then back the breakaway in the end. Money talks.

When did Brett Gosper say the RFU were opposed to it?

JP Lux's public offerings have resembled the ramblings of a mad man.

To be fair, I don't think the RFU have publically supported the breakaway. They've said they support Premiership rugby though. But whether the changes happen within the ERC or outside it, they're going to have to happen. And the post breakaway landscape will be the same as the proposed changes within the ERC were orginally according to the information about the new competition (everything split evenly between qualified sides etc.)

Grandpa Hassan · 23-09-2013 11:06AM

mooonpie wrote: »

But the important question is "Why?"
Are they taking them on for the sake of the ERC?
Or do they see this stance as an opportunity to bargain with LNR?

FFR: 'All stakeholders are currently engaged in discussions and a mediation process initiated by the IRB and the ERC. Communications published today therefore appear irrelevant and inappropriate.' (Google Translate of: http://www.ffr.fr/index.php/ffr/historique/2013/coupe_d_europe_mise_au_point_de_la_ffr)
LNR: 'Ok FFR, we'll give the national side more time with, and access to, our players'
FFR: 'Wahey! LNR can do whatever they like'

I agree. I don't anticipate that the English or French unions will ultimately block their clubs. Relations have moved on so far, and club v country is functioning reasonably well, that they wouldn't want to ruin it. They may try to force some concessions with respect to domestic structures, which I suspect is what the FFR are doing.

I think it has to be looked at in the context of the pull of club rugby against international rugby in England and France. Paul Ackford talked about it yesterday in his sunday times (UK) column. WHilst not going as far as to say that club rugby is eclipsing international rugby in England (as it does in soccer), it is certianly moving far down that road. I speak from experience of conversations with other leicester tigers season ticket holders. The general consensus is that we would now rather watch leicester than england. Welford road over a blazered and dull Twickenham any time. And for the likes of Tuilagio to play for Leicester rather than England if there is a clash in the international and club calendars. Saints fans taht I know largely feel the same.

The support of rugby fans is largely with the clubs, and it is the RFU that will get blamed for any damage done, in the same way as the FA come off worse in the court of public opinion whenever they fight the clubs. I can't speak for France, but I would be suprised if the dymanic is not much the same. The RFU know that they can't fight the clubs head on any more, and they have to compromise.

awec · 23-09-2013 11:11AM

What worries me is that this could be the start of a spiral for rugby.

I'd love to see that McCafferty come whimpering back with his tail between his legs though.

errlloyd · 23-09-2013 11:15AM

Although whatever about club rugby, we could create a decent 4 team tournament where everyone plays each other twice like the southern hemisphere and leave the English and French out to pasture if we wanted to. I guess the problem is that it punishes the wrong people.

Winters · 23-09-2013 11:16AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

When did Brett Gosper say the RFU were opposed to it?

Seeking clarification, I contacted Gosper via Twitter that evening to ask whether or not the IRB would veto a breakaway event that had the backing of the respective Unions.

In fairness, he responded, but only served to puzzle me more.

He tweeted: “RFU and FFR have said they oppose, so hypothetical.”

His comment about the two Unions’ stance was certainly news to me.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/new-european-rugby-tournament-open-6076159

awec · 23-09-2013 11:17AM

errlloyd wrote: »

Although whatever about club rugby, we could create a decent 4 team tournament where everyone plays each other twice like the southern hemisphere and leave the English and French out to pasture if we wanted to. I guess the problem is that it punishes the wrong people.

I think our clubs would be in bother without a tournament involving the French and English.

daveirl · 23-09-2013 11:20AM

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irishbucsfan · 23-09-2013 11:22AM

Winters wrote: »

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/new-european-rugby-tournament-open-6076159

Ah a tweet... But they haven't, or at least hadnt at that stage. I think he was referring to the fact they hadnt backed the tournament, rather than opposed it.

irishbucsfan · 23-09-2013 11:24AM

daveirl wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

They won't take them on properly because, supposedly, European law will forbid it. And then everyone will be stuck without European club rugby while it goes through EU courts.

It's them doing exactly what they should be doing. Getting the most out of the situation for French rugby.

ColmH81 · 23-09-2013 11:26AM

Would I be wrong in saying Celtic and Italien teams wouldn't be able to enter next season as they'd need to give notice to the ERC?

irishbucsfan · 23-09-2013 11:30AM

ColmH81 wrote: »

Would I be wrong in saying Celtic and Italien teams wouldn't be able to enter next season as they'd need to give notice to the ERC?

I don't think so. The accord will have expired. There's talks of a Welsh side being in advanced negotiations for it, asking for a guarrantee of more money.

I think the 2 years notice was important for those who intend to leave, but if there is no subsequent accord then they can't really be bound to stay, unless the Celtic nations remain in the ERC on their own?

daveirl · 23-09-2013 11:34AM

This post has been deleted.

23-09-2013 11:43AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ah a tweet... But they haven't, or at least hadnt at that stage. I think he was referring to the fact they hadnt backed the tournament, rather than opposed it.

He tweeted: “RFU and FFR have said they oppose, so hypothetical.”

Okay, it's pretty fair to say that he hadn't announced it in a press release, so can easily fly under the radar.

That being said, I've no idea how you can infer what you've just said from his personal response saying that they have said that they oppose (as opposed to 'not backed') the competition?

23-09-2013 11:44AM

daveirl wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I think that this is true only of English Teams at this stage. French are teetering close to this situation, but only Gotze has publicly dissed the ERC and 'soiled' relationships.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience · 23-09-2013 11:49AM

This may seem very simplistic but if the celtic regions said they're willing to agree to a qualification based HC structure would all this go away?

irishbucsfan · 23-09-2013 11:49AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Okay, it's pretty fair to say that he hadn't announced it in a press release, so can easily fly under the radar.

That being said, I've no idea how you can infer what you've just said from his personal response saying that they have said that they oppose (as opposed to 'not backed') the competition?

Do you think if they oppose the tournament they might have made it a little clearer than one tweet via Brett Gosper?

When Ritchie was asked directly, he said they support Premiership Rugby but wouldnt back the tournament until they saw more details. Seems to me if they opposed it they would have made it a bit clearer.

irishbucsfan · 23-09-2013 11:50AM

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

This may seem very simplistic but if the celtic regions said they're willing to agree to a qualification based HC structure would all this go away?

No, the clubs won't remain in a structure where 26 clubs are outvoted 2 to 1.

Premiership Rugby out of Heineken Cup?

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