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Greater Dublin Area cycle network - this is set to change things!

2

Comments

  • #32
    Grudaire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Though I do agree with you that the world does need to do something about its reliance on fossil fuels I doubt that a cycle path from here to New York is going to cure future problems but research into alternative power sources might allow my children and grand children to actually visit somewhere rather than dream of it

    In fairness reducing reliance on fossil fuels will most likely take several different approaches. Reducing the amount of power required is most likely going to be one of the tools used. Cycling is a natural alternative to short car journeys.


  • #33
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Cliste wrote: »
    In fairness reducing reliance on fossil fuels will most likely take several different approaches. Reducing the amount of power required is most likely going to be one of the tools used. Cycling is a natural alternative to short car journeys.

    Walking is a far cheaper more energy efficient mode, how much steel,energy carbon fiber etc. building a bike compared to building a set of walking shoes?


  • #34
    markpb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,431 ✭✭✭markpb


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Walking is a far cheaper more energy efficient mode, how much steel,energy carbon fiber etc. building a bike compared to building a set of walking shoes?

    A cycle commute of 5-10km is feasible, a walking commute of the same distance is not.


  • #35
    BenShermin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 701 ✭✭✭BenShermin


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Walking is a far cheaper more energy efficient mode, how much steel,energy carbon fiber etc. building a bike compared to building a set of walking shoes?

    My friend cycles a Raleigh high nelly built in the 60s to and from work every weekday (22km return cycle). Somehow I doubt a pair of walking shoes would last that long ;)!


  • #36
    Grudaire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,620 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Walking is a far cheaper more energy efficient mode, how much steel,energy carbon fiber etc. building a bike compared to building a set of walking shoes?

    I get the feeling that if I said that postboxes are green you'd disagree :pac:


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  • #37
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,990 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Walking is a far cheaper more energy efficient mode, how much steel,energy carbon fiber etc. building a bike compared to building a set of walking shoes?
    Actually cycling is much more efficient than walking. But we're playing silly beggars now aren't we.


  • #38
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Cliste wrote: »
    I get the feeling that if I said that postboxes are green you'd disagree :pac:

    No, but I would specify which country I was refering to

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_box#Colours


  • #39
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    markpb wrote: »
    A cycle commute of 5-10km is feasible, a walking commute of the same distance is not.

    Assuming an average walking speed of 5 kph You mean to tell me you couldn't do an hour to two hours walk?


  • #40
    AltAccount
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,058 ✭✭✭AltAccount


    I'd expect it's not that it can't be done, it's convincing people to change mode.

    Someone's using their car to commute 10k, probably taking 15+ mins each way. You could probably convince them to change to cycling at 25-30 mins each way, but you're unlikely to convince them to walk 2 hours each way to and from work (based on your 5kph figure).


    Halve the numbers for a 5k commute and you'll probably get the same effect/decision.


  • #41
    markpb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,431 ✭✭✭markpb


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Assuming an average walking speed of 5 kph You mean to tell me you couldn't do an hour to two hours walk?

    You're asking would I spend 10-20 hours commuting a week? No.


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  • #42
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Walking is a far cheaper more energy efficient mode, how much steel,energy carbon fiber etc. building a bike compared to building a set of walking shoes?

    Your campaign to persuade people to vacate the roads and leave them only for those users powered by the internal combustion engine who pay 'road tax' seems to be foundering, but no doubt you'll persist anyway.

    Good luck. ;)


  • #43
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,107 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Please back on topic of the network review.

    Spook_ie wrote: »
    Assuming an average walking speed of 5 kph You mean to tell me you couldn't do an hour to two hours walk?

    If you keep this up it's only a matter of time that your troll-like following of cycling related threads will be enough to ban you for a long time.


  • #44
    petronius
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭petronius


    There are impediments to cycling being more of a success in dublin - the weather can be a nuisance however I have easily cycled most days from feb-nov and with decent raingear and a shower in work it is not a problem.
    The more pressing obstacles to cycling is the anti-cycling lobby those who put pylons in the middle of a cycle lane, those drivers who illegally park in a cycle lane, drivers who go so close to the curb encroaching on the space for a cyclist lack of connectivity between cycle lanes (how often have i been cycling from a cycle lane onto the road to be confronted with a van or car blocking or forcing the cyclist into the middle of the road. The lack of cycle racks is also a barrier - while the dublin bikes scheme is no doubt a massive success, it has robbed the cyclists of many bike racks to lock their bikes


  • #45
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,107 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    petronius wrote: »
    There are impediments to cycling being more of a success in dublin - the weather can be a nuisance however I have easily cycled most days from feb-nov and with decent raingear and a shower in work it is not a problem.
    The more pressing obstacles to cycling is the anti-cycling lobby those who put pylons in the middle of a cycle lane, those drivers who illegally park in a cycle lane, drivers who go so close to the curb encroaching on the space for a cyclist lack of connectivity between cycle lanes (how often have i been cycling from a cycle lane onto the road to be confronted with a van or car blocking or forcing the cyclist into the middle of the road. The lack of cycle racks is also a barrier - while the dublin bikes scheme is no doubt a massive success, it has robbed the cyclists of many bike racks to lock their bikes

    The cycle network and Dublin City Council addresses a lot of that -- the quality segregation suggested puts a stop to parking, encrohing on the space of cyclists, and the lack of connectivity between lanes.

    Dublin City Council are planning large and I also think mid-scale cycling parking. On-street bike racks won't solve the problem if we're expecting so much more cyclists -- that's their view and it seems to ring true.

    Also: Given how many times the average Dublin Bike is used a day, it's fairly good use of space.


  • #46
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    AltAccount wrote: »
    ...
    Someone's using their car to commute 10k, probably taking 15+ mins each way. ..

    That would also vary enormously on where you are going. Dublin City Center at peak you could be talking 40 mins maybe more each way.


  • #47
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    petronius wrote: »
    There are impediments to cycling being more of a success in dublin - the weather can be a nuisance however I have easily cycled most days from feb-nov and with decent raingear and a shower in work it is not a problem.
    The more pressing obstacles to cycling is the anti-cycling lobby those who put pylons in the middle of a cycle lane, those drivers who illegally park in a cycle lane, drivers who go so close to the curb encroaching on the space for a cyclist lack of connectivity between cycle lanes (how often have i been cycling from a cycle lane onto the road to be confronted with a van or car blocking or forcing the cyclist into the middle of the road. The lack of cycle racks is also a barrier - while the dublin bikes scheme is no doubt a massive success, it has robbed the cyclists of many bike racks to lock their bikes

    I don't think there is an anti-cycling lobby as such - just a lot of thoughtlessness both in terms of how infra-structure is used and how it is designed.

    Something I'd like to see done is to offer 'challenge' funding to local authorities. I had experience of this in the UK where the government would make a pot of money available for a range of projects and authorities bid for it - the kicker was that the project had be paid for from their own funds, then if it delivered at the level agreed the authority got the money it expended plus 10%.

    Put something like that in place and you might see a much lesser length of cycle lane constructed, but if the metric was usage, I bet it would be well designed and constructed........


    ........then we'd have to put up with threads complaining about congestion on those tracks :D


  • #48
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Jawgap wrote: »
    I don't think there is an anti-cycling lobby ...

    There's certainly a tide of negativity towards cycling and cyclists by some. For example people who follow cycling threads on boards simply to post negative comments. Or media articles that constant take stats out of context, for example lumping them in with motorcyclists, and write a article about cyclists around that.

    They are of course doing this simply to get attention.


  • #49
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    beauf wrote: »
    There's certainly a tide of negativity towards cycling and cyclists by some. For example people who follow cycling threads on boards simply to post negative comments. Or media articles that constant take stats out of context, for example lumping them in with motorcyclists, and write a article about cyclists around that.

    They are of course doing this simply to get attention.

    But people who follow threads just to post negative comments about cyclists you can count on one hand, and newspapers trying to sell newspapers, or websites trying to generate traffic are hardly a 'lobby' - they're just doing what the media does.

    I don't get a sense there's negativity towards cycling - quite the opposite in fact given the number of new bike shops opening, the numbers on the road, the size of groups and the number of questions I get in work about which bike to buy.

    Plus there's plenty of articles online and in print discussing the merits of cycling...........just because there's a few vocal residual idiots doesn't mean there's negativity.


  • #50
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,107 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    It might be more correct to say that there's an anti-change lobby or a status quo lobby.


  • #51
    Lepidoptera
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 146 ✭✭Lepidoptera


    Jawgap wrote: »
    But people who follow threads just to post negative comments about cyclists you can count on one hand, and newspapers trying to sell newspapers, or websites trying to generate traffic are hardly a 'lobby' - they're just doing what the media does.

    I don't get a sense there's negativity towards cycling - quite the opposite in fact given the number of new bike shops opening, the numbers on the road, the size of groups and the number of questions I get in work about which bike to buy.

    Plus there's plenty of articles online and in print discussing the merits of cycling...........just because there's a few vocal residual idiots doesn't mean there's negativity.


    Media doesn't exist or operate within a vacuum. It influences and drives - as well as reflects - the feelings of the culture and the general population within which it operates. Its power of influence, both overt and in more subtle ways, is one of the biggest reasons it cannot really be ignored as it's an exceptionally potent tool. To just dismiss that as an avenue of lobbying because 'it's just newspapers trying to sell newspapers' doesn't make much sense.

    Lobbying is all about influence. Being supported by media that largely either ignores cyclists or presents them in a negative light generates a lot of influence for certain positions without even needing to do any active lobbying. That doesn't mean that there aren't also people who enjoy cycling and look upon it positively, and if you spend a lot of time seeking out cycling related media, you are bound to find the more positive sources and come into contact with others who share your feelings. The bigger issue is what kind of media and general messages about cycling are going to be influencing the general population - what is the overall image of cycling presented to people?

    That becomes critical when issues like such a cycle network come into play, or the creation of any new transport policy or conditions really. The people who make these decisions don't operate within a cultural vacuum either - much less so actually. Their livelihood depends upon keeping on top of and managing competing influences. If cycling is continually presented in a negative or ambivalent light by general mass market media, then they aren't really going to care if there are also articles people can go look up discussing the merits. They'll care if there's an overall shift in opinion.

    This cycle network could be a great thing for cycling in Dublin, but it also could create a few more problems down the line if not handled with a good deal of insight into current cycling conditions.


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  • #52
    Spook_ie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,896 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    monument wrote: »
    It might be more correct to say that there's an anti-change lobby or a status quo lobby.

    What lobby is this, do you have any contact details?


  • #53
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Spook_ie wrote: »
    What lobby is this, do you have any contact details?


    It's the political wing of the NIMBY and BANANA Brigades.


  • #54
    BenShermin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 701 ✭✭✭BenShermin


    Jawgap wrote: »
    It's the political wing of the NIMBY and BANANA Brigades.

    Doesn't the SMIDSY brigade have it's part to play aswell?


  • #55
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    BenShermin wrote: »
    Doesn't the SMIDSY brigade have it's part to play aswell?

    Splitters! They're like the Continuity NIMBYs.


  • #56
    BenShermin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 701 ✭✭✭BenShermin


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Splitters! They're like the Continuity NIMBYs.

    Oh yeah, just like on the pro cycling lobby side when the MAMILs split from the Free State to become the Real MAMILs.


  • #57
    petronius
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭petronius


    I fear the policy makers and politicians don't cycle and don't know the issues
    How many planners of the roads cycle? or how often does a minister or senior civil servant in the dept of transport cycle

    facilities are important -
    cycle racks to lock your bike
    companies obliged (and given tax incentives) to provide showers in work for cyclists
    cycle lanes need to be improved and when another utility company digs up section they should be forced to reinstated it
    gardai need to punish those who park in a cycle lane
    how often do you cycle in a lane and have to enter a road lane since some white van man has parked in the middle of the cycle lane as though it doesnt matter

    I am amazed at the anti-cycling (or negative impressions and lack of respect) perception people have about cycling
    as well as the arrogance of drivers -
    I have often got questioned to why I cycle when i have a car?
    Or asked do I not drive? People assume i dont have a car since I cycle
    Or questioned how can you cycle when it rains - never heard of rain gear?
    Or i have found it doesn't rain as much as people think and often you can cycle between showers.


  • #58
    BenShermin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 701 ✭✭✭BenShermin


    I can totally understand the need for workplace showers for the people who do 25/30k commutes to work in Lycra. However if you have a commute under 10k and you're using the lack of a shower in your workplace as a barrier then that's just a lazy excuse IMO.

    My commute is under 5k, as is three of the people that are on my team. The other three can't understand how I cycle to work without sweating and drive as a result. They say if showers were available then they'd cycle. I keep telling them, buy an upright bike, slow down you're going to work, not on the Tour de France and wear one less layer than you would wear depending on the season (no need for the jumper under the winter coat when it's cold IMO) the cycle itself heats you up. A few baby wipes and deodorant work wonders in the Summer days aswell.

    Although for all their excuses about the showers I think they're hiding the real excuse. They're paying ridiculous motor tax and don't want to leave the car in the driveway as they probably see that as a waste of the tax they're paying. I honestly think if Ireland scrapped motor tax and instead put that tax on fuel and tolls/congestion charges then people would be incentivised to leave the car at home and cycle or use public transport instead as people could actually see the savings. Perhaps a debate for another thread though.


  • #59
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,107 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    petronius wrote: »
    How many planners of the roads cycle?

    I know a good few in the NTA, Dublin City Council and DLR Co Co cycle -- including some senior managers.


  • #60
    BenShermin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 701 ✭✭✭BenShermin


    monument wrote: »
    I know a good few in the NTA, Dublin City Council and DLR Co Co cycle -- including some senior managers.

    Alex White TD is also a cyclist isn't he?

    In the Irish media sphere Matt Cooper and Bryan Dobson cycle to work. The latter doesn't seem to believe in helmets or Lycra I believe.


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  • #61
    BenShermin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 701 ✭✭✭BenShermin


    BenShermin wrote: »
    Alex White TD is also a cyclist isn't he?

    In the Irish media sphere Matt Cooper and Bryan Dobson cycle to work. The latter doesn't seem to believe in helmets or Lycra I believe.

    I should really replace the word believe with the word bother in the above post.

    I believe in Lycra and helmets for road bike long distance cycling. I don't bother (or believe) with them for sit up and beg short cycles.


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