Latest - Western forces prepare for Military strikes in Syria, strike just hours away

realweirdo · 10-09-2013 09:30AM

bumper234 wrote: »

So much fail i wouldn't know where to start.

Ah yeh, typical anti american response.

To be fair if it wasn't for America, you'd be hailing the Nazis, cheering the Kaiser or probably in some Soviet Gulag somewhere.

Learn your history.

You're probably typing away on your american made computer right now, tweeting your mates on your american designed iphone, and so on and so on.

The alternative to American domination of the world really doesn't bear thinking about, and I'm glad its not a reality.

Just ask the South Koreans under whose zone of influence they'd rather live.

Or the Germans, or billions of other people around the world.

There are so many sh*tholes around the world, most of them not in the american zone of influence.

Tony EH · 10-09-2013 09:35AM

realweirdo wrote: »

Ah yeh, typical anti american response.

To be fair if it wasn't for America, you'd be hailing the Nazis, cheering the Kaiser or probably in some Soviet Gulag somewhere.

Learn your history.

Actually, if you leaned a bit of history yourself, you'd find that it was Russia who did the lion's share of fighting against the Germans in WWII.

realweirdo · 10-09-2013 09:35AM

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

To do as he pleases?

What's that, fight back against a rebel army who are causing havoc in his country?

The rebel army were created in 2011 by soldiers who refused to obey Assad orders to shoot unarmed protesters.

Clearly you now view them as traitors and they should have just obeyed orders.

Assad is fighting for no-one but himself.

He could have started an orderly transition to democracy years ago. He promised reform but then backtracked.

There was only one person with the power to ensure an orderly transition to democracy, Assad. Instead he bottled it and now the result is carnage and chaos in his country.

There is one person responsible for the chaos in Syria, ASSAD.

And not a single anti American has admitted that. They try to blame everyone except Assad.

realweirdo · 10-09-2013 09:37AM

Tony EH wrote: »

Actually, if you leaned a bit of history yourself, you'd find that it was Russia who did the lion's share of fighting against the Germans in WWII.

With a hell of a lot of support from the Brits and US in terms of materials, materials which unquestionably helped turned the tide and turned the Russian army from one that went to battle on foot and horseback to one that had tens of thousands of American made trucks ferrying them around.

The Russians also needed the help of a second front, even they admitted that.

And the Russians played little or no role in defeating the Japs either. They joined the fight 2 days before the end of the war!

Tony EH · 10-09-2013 09:42AM

realweirdo wrote: »

With a hell of a lot of support from the Brits and US in terms of materials, materials which unquestionably helped turned the tide and turned the Russian army from one that went to battle on foot and horseback to one that had tens of thousands of American made trucks ferrying them around.

Lend Lease was a fraction of what the Russians produced themselves, about 15% all told (and that's being generous), the benefit of which mostly wasn't felt until 1944. The most important LL item for the Russians was trucks. Lend Lease was helpful, but certainly not essential and definitely didn't turn any "tides", that's for sure. It didn't help at Moscow, it didn't help at Stalingrad and it didn't help at Kursk. By 1943, the war in the East was a foregone conclusion. Russia would have won the war regardless.

From 1941, the Russians won their battles equiped largely with Russian equipment. The war in Europe WAS Germany vs Russia and they shed a lot of blood defeating Germany.

Your history is appalling.

alastair · 10-09-2013 10:07AM

Tony EH wrote: »

Lend Lease was a fraction of what the Russians produced themselves, about 15% all told (and that's being generous

Depends what you count. 70% of the soviet motor pool (primarily trucks) were lend-lease sourced.

Gringo180 · 10-09-2013 10:16AM

The US wants to rule these states in the middle east by proxy for the benefit of themselves and Israel. William Hague yesterday had the audacity to say that Assad must be punished as he is stopping humanatarian aid to his people but yet this has been happening to the Palestinians for decades and not only is nothing said about Israel but they support them. Hypocrisy of the highest order!

Tony EH · 10-09-2013 10:40AM

alastair wrote: »

Depends what you count. 70% of the soviet motor pool (primarily trucks) were lend-lease sourced.

In 1944.

The war was effectively over for the Germans by then.

Besides, it's not as if the Russians couldn't, or didn't produce trucks. Lend Lease helped free up a situation whereby they could make tanks instead, but when one considers that even without Lend Lease, the Russians would have outstripped the Germans in tanks many times over, even that help wasn't essential to their victory.

No matter how it's cut, Lend Lease, while it was helpful, was not a decisive factor in the Russian victory over the Germans.

alastair · 10-09-2013 10:46AM

Tony EH wrote: »

In 1944.

The war was effectively over for the Germans by then.

Besides, it's not as if the Russians couldn't, or didn't produce trucks. Lend Lease helped free up a situation whereby they could make tanks instead, but when one considers that even without Lend Lease, the Russians would have outstripped the Germans in tanks many times over, even that help wasn't essential to their victory.

No matter how it's cut, Lend Lease, while it was helpful, was not a decisive factor in the Russian victory over the Germans.

Speaking about our readiness for war from the point of view of the economy and economics, one cannot be silent about such a factor as the subsequent help from the Allies. First of all, certainly, from the American side, because in that respect the English helped us minimally. In an analysis of all facets of the war, one must not leave this out of one's reckoning. We would have been in a serious condition without American gunpowder, and could not have turned out the quantity of ammunition which we needed. Without American Studebekkers, we could have dragged our artillery nowhere. Yes, in general, to a considerable degree they provided our front transport. The output of special steel, necessary for the most diverse necessities of war, were also connected to a series of American deliveries."

It is now said that the Allies never helped us . . . However, one cannot deny that the Americans gave us so much material, without which we could not have formed our reserves and could not have continued the war . . . we had no explosives and powder. There was none to equip rifle bullets. The Americans actually came to our assistance with powder and explosives. And how much sheet steel did they give us. We really could not have quickly put right our production of tanks if the Americans had not helped with steel. And today it seems as though we had all this ourselves in abundance."

Georgy Zhukov
Chief of the General Staff, Deputy Minister of Defense of the USSR, 1941

Tony EH · 10-09-2013 10:53AM

I've seen that quote before. But it doesn't change anything.

Russia won their war against Germany with their own blood and laregly with their own equipment.

As I said lend lease was helpful, but Russia would have won anyway.

Once again, delveries of LL began to make a significant impact around the time of Bagration. But all of the major battles before 1944 were won by Russians using largely Russian equipment. Lend lease's impact in those essential battles was minimal.

Zhukov is also wrong about British material help.

alastair · 10-09-2013 11:02AM

Tony EH wrote: »

I've seen that quote before. But it doesn't change anything.

It's a pretty convincing case made by someone central to the Soviet campaign. Does he confirm that lend-lease "unquestionably helped turned the tide" - well, yes, he does.

esteve · 10-09-2013 11:03AM

Tony EH wrote: »

Russia won their war against Germany with their own blood and laregly with their own equipment.

Exactly, anywhere from 22,000,000 to 32,000,000 Russians killed during WWII. Im so sick of that absurd claim that'if it weren't for the US we would all be speaking German'...yawn. Let it not be forgotten that the US were also supplying the Nazis prior to entering the war. And let us not forget that WWII left the US in an unprecedented position of power.

This thread is getting ridiculous, any facts stated here are met by realwerido with anti-american claims. Its becoming absurd and tiresome. Im starting to think he may be trolling, as nobody in ther right mind can be that stupid and ignorant.

Tony EH · 10-09-2013 11:04AM

It's a pretty convincing case made by someone central to the Soviet campaign. Does he confirm that lend-lease "unquestionably helped turned the tide" - well, yes, he does.

Well, the historical record and the facts of the matter are at odds with him.

In addition Zhukov was making these reflections in the 60's. 20 years after the war had ended and in a very different political climate.

esteve · 10-09-2013 11:08AM

alastair wrote: »

It's a pretty convincing case made by someone central to the Soviet campaign. Does he confirm that lend-lease "unquestionably helped turned the tide" - well, yes, he does.

You could also question that if the US had not been supplying the Nazis, then perhaps the Soviets would not have needed further supplies. It doesnt really matter, to try and play down the role that the Soviets played in defeating the Nazis is absurd and disrespectful. They were on the eastern front for years in some of the bloodiest, most gruesome battles with huge losses of life. Supplies are all well and good, you need people to use them

alastair · 10-09-2013 11:14AM

esteve wrote: »

You could also question that if the US had not been supplying the Nazis, then perhaps the Soviets would not have needed further supplies. It doesnt really matter, to try and play down the role that the Soviets played in defeating the Nazis is absurd and disrespectful. They were on the eastern front for years in some of the bloodiest, most gruesome battles with huge losses of life. Supplies are all well and good, you need people to use them

You'd need to take this up with Zhukov - I assume he knew only too well the sacrifice Russians made in fighting that war - and yet he's not afraid to give credit to the impact of lend-lease.

Tony EH · 10-09-2013 11:17AM

Aye and credit should be given where credit is due, but no serious historian would be in line with the opinion that without lend lease, Russian would not have won the war.

Lend lease certainly helped, there's no doubt about that. But without it, Russia still would have defeated the Germans.

esteve · 10-09-2013 11:24AM

alastair wrote: »

You'd need to take this up with Zhukov - I assume he knew only too well the sacrifice Russians made in fighting that war - and yet he's not afraid to give credit to the impact of lend-lease.

Exactly, to give credit, but not to say that without it Russia would have lost the war against Germany.

renegademaster · 10-09-2013 11:28AM

http://rt.com/news/chemical-weapons-rebels-captives-632/

Chemical attack was rebel provocation, former captives say
Published time: September 10, 2013 03:24
Edited time: September 10, 2013 08:33 Get short URL

AFP Photo / Louai Abo Al-Jo
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Belgian teacher Pierre Piccinin and Italian journalist Domenico Quiric, both of whom were abducted and held hostage for several months in Syria, said they overheard in an exchange between their captors that rebels were behind the recent chemical attack.

Follow RT's LIVE UPDATES for the latest on Syria

In a number of interviews to European news outlets, the former hostages said they overheard an English-language Skype conversation between their captors and other men which suggested it was rebel forces – not the government - that used chemical weapons on Syria’s civilian population in an August 21 attack near Damascus.

“It is a moral duty to say this. The government of Bashar al-Assad did not use sarin gas or other types of gas in the outskirts of Damascus,” Piccinin said during an interview with Belgium's RTL radio station.

Piccinin stressed that while being held captive, he and fellow prisoner Quirico were secluded from the outside world and had no idea that chemical weapons were deployed. But the conversation which both men overheard suggested that the use of the weapons was a strategic move by the opposition, aimed at getting the West to intervene.

"In this conversation, they said that the gas attack on two neighborhoods of Damascus was launched by the rebels as a provocation to lead the West to intervene militarily,” Quirico told Italy’s La Stampa. "We were unaware of everything that was going on during our detention in Syria, and therefore also with the gas attack in Damascus."

While stating that the rebels most likely exaggerated the accident’s death toll, the Italian journalist stressed that he could not vouch whether “the conversation was based on real facts." However, he said that one of the three people in the alleged conversation identified himself as a Free Syrian Army general, La Stampa reported.

Based on what both men have learned, Peccinin told RTL that it would be “insane and suicidal for the West to support these people.”

“It pains me to say it because I've been a fierce supporter of the Free Syrian Army in its rightful fight for democracy since 2012," Piccinin added.

Quirico seems to agree with Peccini’s assessment.

“I am extremely surprised that the United States could think about intervening, knowing very well how the Syrian revolution has become international jihadism – in other words Al-Qaeda," Quirico said, as quoted by Italy’s Quotidiano Nazionale.

The 62-year-old La Stampa journalist believes that radical Islamic groups operating in Syria to topple Assad “want to create a caliphate and extend it to the entire Middle East and North Africa.”

In a number of news appearances, both Quirico and Piccinin shared stories of how they were subjected to two mock executions, beaten, and starved during their five-month captivity.

"These have been very tough months. We were beaten on a daily basis, we suffered two mock executions," Quirico told reporters upon his arrival in Rome, AFP reported.

"There was sometimes real violence...humiliation, bullying, mock executions...Domenico faced two mock executions, with a revolver," Piccinin told RTL.

Both men were kidnapped in Syria last April by a group of armed men in pickup trucks who were believed to be from Free Syrian Army.

According to Piccinin, the captors soon transferred them over to the Abu Ammar brigade, a rebel group "more bandit than Islamist."

"We were moved around a lot...it was not always the same group that held us, there were very violent groups, very anti-West and some anti-Christian," Piccinin said.

Both men tried to escape twice but their attempts were unsuccessful, prompting the rebel group to punish them for their actions.

The Italian government announced on Sunday that both men had been freed after Rome intensified negotiations with the rebels for the release of the prisoners ahead of an anticipated US strike on Syria.

Another 13 journalists are still believed to be missing in Syria, according to Reporters Without Borders.

Jonny7 · 10-09-2013 11:44AM

Tony EH wrote: »

Like it or not, the vast majority of the ME don't want America adding its colours (or colors) into the mix. The vast majority of Middle Eastern nations don't view America with any kind of trust.

The 22 nation Arab league just backed the US action, in fact they are more hawkish than the US admin on the issue

Jonny7 · 10-09-2013 11:45AM

This thread is definitely not a US bash-fest

So where are we on WW2/Iran-coup, or have we reached the genocide of Native-Americans yet

You think I am joking..

Jonny7 · 10-09-2013 11:54AM

Back on the actual subject

France has proposed a UN resolution based on Russia's proposal - to remove the chemical weapons out of Syria. Not really going to solve or help the situation much but it's something. Ironically I expect the Russians to obstruct again on a technicality, but we'll see.

Amerika · 10-09-2013 12:02PM

Tony EH wrote: »

Actually, if you leaned a bit of history yourself, you'd find that it was Russia who did the lion's share of fighting against the Germans in WWII.

But Russia was only able to beat back the Germans because of the US Lend-Lease Act... and primarily the Studebaker US6 2.5 ton truck to haul troops, supplies, munitions and able to tow artillery pieces.

Tony EH · 10-09-2013 12:09PM

I better start writing that history book, then, because everybody from Basil Liddel Hart to David Glanz has been woefully wrong all this time!

:pac:

Manach · 10-09-2013 12:28PM

Tony EH wrote: »

I better start writing that history book, then, because everybody from Basil Liddel Hart to David Glanz has been woefully wrong all this time!
:pac:

Again this is going OT, but contextually (ie from my personal pro-US worldview) that while the US lend-lease did significantly aid the Soviet cause and shorten the duration of the war in the East, it was in the main part their own Soviet Generals, tactics and technology that swung the war for them - based on my reading of various German post war military accounts.

realweirdo · 10-09-2013 12:40PM

renegademaster wrote: »

http://rt.com/news/chemical-weapons-rebels-captives-632/

Chemical attack was rebel provocation, former captives say
Published time: September 10, 2013 03:24
Edited time: September 10, 2013 08:33 Get short URL

You do realise you are quoting from Kremlin mouthpiece RT??

Once I saw your source, I stopped reading as RT is not an independent CREDIBLE source.

Gringo180 · 10-09-2013 12:43PM

realweirdo wrote: »

You do realise you are quoting from Kremlin mouthpiece RT??

Once I saw your source, I stopped reading as RT is not an independent CREDIBLE source.

And the BBC and Sky are?

Tony EH · 10-09-2013 12:47PM

Funny how the BBC version of the story is incredibly different:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24011595

Jonny7 · 10-09-2013 12:52PM

Gringo180 wrote: »

And the BBC and Sky are?

Take Sky trash news..

take it off air.

Replace it with colourised English speaking equivalents of Goebbels German specials - have the ex-communist TASS agency run it..

sprinkle approx a dozen murdered journalists per year to make sure everything is in line

et voila - Russia Today

Tony EH · 10-09-2013 12:53PM

Same story in La Stampa:

http://www.lastampa.it/2013/09/09/esteri/quirico-it-is-madness-to-say-i-knew-it-wasnt-assad-who-used-gas-FjJDJ8oeEI19AZbyKIVBHJ/pagina.html

My name is URL · 10-09-2013 12:53PM

Gringo180 wrote: »

And the BBC and Sky are?

The BBC have been using an unemployed bloke from Coventry to verify videos coming out of Syria.. he has no experience of anything related to conflict other than having watched 1000's of hours worth of stuff on YouTube

That's true journalism!

Latest - Western forces prepare for Military strikes in Syria, strike just hours away

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