And it begins..................

Hotblack Desiato · 09-09-2013 01:33AM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

As there are so few options for families of other or no religion, why is religion class not always last before home time so parents can just pick their children up early. This should be mandatory in all schools since the religion situation is so ridiculous.

That is exactly what the National School system set up under British rule in the mid 19th century was supposed to be. Until a bizarre coalition of Catholics and Presbyterians derailed it. We still have so-called 'National Schools' today, but subverted by religious sectarianism, making a mockery of the non-sectarian education they were intended to provide.

UDP wrote: »

OP, firstly do not set the child up against the teacher with awkward questions. The teacher does not have a choice as to whether to teach this crap or not - it is stupidly on the curriculum as set out by catholic schools. I know. My sister is a primary school teacher in a catholic school and atheist - she has no choice but to spout the crap.

The teachers DO have a choice, they've just refused to exercise it.
The current crapola wouldn't last another five minutes if the teachers unions set their minds against it. Yet, they've never once spoken up against religious control and its many abuses - why is this? They have opted to be part of the problem instead of part of the solution. This includes sacrificing the careers of 'dissident' teachers.

Kiwi in IE · 09-09-2013 01:53AM

Geomy wrote: »

Oh here we go again, indoctrination indoctrination. ...you're taking this far too serious Robin....

It Is indoctrination Geomy! Brainwashing is probably more accurate. I have read the current junior infant 'Alive O' book and that is exactly what it is. It appears benign enough at a glance, but when you look at it from a psychological perspective it is brainwashing without a doubt. God is attributed to all manner of everyday things in every 'lesson' throughout the school year. God is thanked for families, friends, senses, seasons, food, warmth, clothing, animals, nature etc, etc. It is done in a cutesy, colouring in way, but the message is clear, God is responsible for everything.

Geomy · 09-09-2013 08:35AM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

It Is indoctrination Geomy! Brainwashing is probably more accurate. I have read the current junior infant 'Alive O' book and that is exactly what it is. It appears benign enough at a glance, but when you look at it from a psychological perspective it is brainwashing without a doubt. God is attributed to all manner of everyday things in every 'lesson' throughout the school year. God is thanked for families, friends, senses, seasons, food, warmth, clothing, animals, nature etc, etc. It is done in a cutesy, colouring in way, but the message is clear, God is responsible for everything.

Why are you going back along my post's and keeping it up ?
I already agreed accepted your stance on the subject.

It's indoctrination to some and it washes off others backs.

So are you telling me all the kid's who go to those school's are going to be indoctrinated. ...

Ill tell you one thing, most of the posters in here were in the position of being indoctrinated, but they seem to be living a normal lifestyle and doing ok....

Dave! · 09-09-2013 09:22AM

^ 85%+ of the population identify as Catholic. Most of which would have been in Catholic primary schools.

Selecting a sample from an atheism forum and saying "See? Indoctrination doesn't work!" is probably not very useful.

Anyway - the question of whether it's indoctrination/brainwashing, and the question of whether it's successful or not, is two different things.

sbsquarepants · 09-09-2013 09:26AM

Geomy wrote: »

Ill tell you one thing, most of the posters in here were in the position of being indoctrinated, but they seem to be living a normal lifestyle and doing ok....

This is a topic that comes up again and again here and I feel it's importance is hugely overstated - the "indoctrination" is futile if it's not backed up by parents at home. If the parents don't take part in the evil plan, it is doomed to failure plain and simple.
I suffered this indoctrination, so too did practically everybody I know - yet I know very few slaves to catholic dogma!

inocybe · 09-09-2013 09:27AM

Dave! wrote: »

^ 85%+ of the population identify as Catholic. Most of which would have been in Catholic primary schools.

Selecting a sample from an atheism forum and saying "See? Indoctrination doesn't work!" is probably not very useful.

Anyway - the question of whether it's indoctrination/brainwashing, and the question of whether it's successful or not, is two different things.

Ah but they would have had catholic parents. I'd be surprised if there are many catholics with atheist parents, just imagine 'Please mom can I go to mass' - 'NO go back to bed'

Cabaal · 09-09-2013 09:30AM

I'm really curious about this Alive O book, any chance there's some photos of the types of content in it?

Geomy · 09-09-2013 09:51AM

sbsquarepants wrote: »

This is a topic that comes up again and again here and I feel it's importance is hugely overstated - the "indoctrination" is futile if it's not backed up by parents at home. If the parents don't take part in the evil plan, it is doomed to failure plain and simple.
I suffered this indoctrination, so too did practically everybody I know - yet I know very few slaves to catholic dogma!

The slave's to Catholic Dogma are the one's that fear it the most or live it dogmatically.

People like myself who never bothered with it are lucky to build a bridge and get over it. ...

Hotblack Desiato · 09-09-2013 09:53AM

Sure what's the harm?

SpaceTime · 09-09-2013 10:02AM

I think one of the most important things non religious people or people who just want a secular education system even if they are religious should do is lobby their local TDs

Just point out changes to make the system more secular would be something that decides who you vote for.

They're not getting sufficient pressure put on them and they are our representatives
who can influence legislation.

The education system is definitely something that puts me right off raising kids in Ireland.
Overly religious and then an exam system that manages to knock out any kind of analytical logical thinking in favour of rote learning and "exam technique".

robindch · 09-09-2013 10:04AM

Geomy wrote: »

5 is far too young to be telling a kid to be saucy with the teachers, go back and read my post again....

So, it's ok with you to involve a 5 year old in a religious fight (school indoctrinates child...), but it's not ok to, uh, involve a 5 year old in a religious fight (against the parents' wishes)?

Geomy wrote: »

People like myself who never bothered with it are lucky to build a bridge and get over it. ...

If you had people in your family whose relationships, lives and identities have been destroyed by religion, perhaps you'd be more concerned about it.

Geomy · 09-09-2013 10:09AM

robindch wrote: »

So, it's ok with you to involve a 5 year old in a religious fight (school indoctrinates child...), but it's not ok to, uh, involve a 5 year old in a religious fight (against the parents' wishes)?If you had people in your family whose relationships, lives and identities have been destroyed by religion, perhaps you'd be more concerned about it.

Don't be twisting my words and bringing the discussion to the gutter...myself and yourself don't see eye on certain issues so I think we'll leave it at that. ...

robindch · 09-09-2013 10:56AM

Geomy wrote: »

Don't be twisting my words and bringing the discussion to the gutter [...]

Far from twisting your words, I'm trying to ask the kind of questions which might help straighten out your contradictory thoughts.

Geomy · 09-09-2013 11:08AM

robindch wrote: »

Far from twisting your words, I'm trying to ask the kind of questions which might help straighten out your contradictory thoughts.

Sometimes im full of contradictions, I suppose you look at the op from an atheistic view.
I kinda sit more on the fence, when I said I accept kiwis view, maybe im not good on paper.

What I should have said I accept the fact that Kiwi has that way looking at the situation...

Ill never make a journalist, id be hit with lawsuits every second day :-D

I had my fair share of hurt,pain, confusion, sexual hangups, moral hangups over the Catholic Church and it's ****....

I went and got outside help and am moving on, I do know what it's like to be fcked up over religion, part of the healing process is to be able to move on and try not to look back :-)

UDP · 09-09-2013 11:52AM

ninja900 wrote: »

The teachers DO have a choice, they've just refused to exercise it.
The current crapola wouldn't last another five minutes if the teachers unions set their minds against it. Yet, they've never once spoken up against religious control and its many abuses - why is this? They have opted to be part of the problem instead of part of the solution. This includes sacrificing the careers of 'dissident' teachers.

Big difference between individual teachers and an entire union. No teacher in a catholic school has the right to refuse to teach the curriculum and hold on to their job. The school can legally fire a teacher it. Do you really expect a teacher to put their job on the line in the hope that there will be an all out teacher strike in support? Its just not fair to expect that. Plus it is the newer teachers that are most likely to be atheist and they have very little power/sway in the unions.

Obliq · 09-09-2013 12:09PM

Geomy wrote: »

Sometimes im full of contradictions, I suppose you look at the op from an atheistic view.
I kinda sit more on the fence....

See, that's just the thing. I have never changed my views - always was an atheist and presumably always will be (baring some miraculous epiphany - odds on that NOT good). To me, far from sitting on the fence about it, I am under the impression that it doesn't seem too much to ask that my views are respected in relation to my children's upbringing, even in a catholic school. In the school they went to, I was lucky and there were no teachers telling my boys that "God made the clouds", because I asked them not to. But I had to ask.

Kiwi in IE · 09-09-2013 01:16PM

Cabaal wrote: »

I'm really curious about this Alive O book, any chance there's some photos of the types of content in it?

It only came home to be covered it went back this morning. The teacher spoke to me about it and said that they do not ask that the tasks for parents be completed at home and that the book won't be coming home. She tried to convince me that I did not need to opt out and that it's all very 'general'. Whatever that means? What is 'general' indoctrination?

kuro_man · 09-09-2013 01:21PM

I think you should sue the state for breach of human rights...that's the only way it will change.

Sarky · 09-09-2013 01:22PM

They probably don't beat you for trying to resist.

Cabaal · 09-09-2013 02:23PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

It only came home to be covered it went back this morning. The teacher spoke to me about it and said that they do not ask that the tasks for parents be completed at home and that the book won't be coming home. She tried to convince me that I did not need to opt out and that it's all very 'general'. Whatever that means? What is 'general' indoctrination?

Thats a very odd respose,

Just because its "general" doesn't mean its not indoctrination. If its pushing a specific faith thats exactly what its intented for.

Did you ask for clarification on what very general means when it comes to a specific faith?

Perhaps the teacher could explain to you how something pushing the Islamic faith would be very general for comparisons sake, just so you can understand why there would be no need to opt out.

UDP · 09-09-2013 02:51PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

It only came home to be covered it went back this morning. The teacher spoke to me about it and said that they do not ask that the tasks for parents be completed at home and that the book won't be coming home. She tried to convince me that I did not need to opt out and that it's all very 'general'. Whatever that means? What is 'general' indoctrination?

Did you stick with opting out or is it left unsure?

Kiwi in IE · 09-09-2013 02:56PM

Cabaal wrote: »

Thats a very odd respose,

Just because its "general" doesn't mean its not indoctrination. If its pushing a specific faith thats exactly what its intented for.

Did you ask for clarification on what very general means when it comes to a specific faith?

Perhaps the teacher could explain to you how something pushing the Islamic faith would be very general for comparisons sake, just so you can understand why there would be no need to opt out.

When I used the 'genuflecting' as an example of what we find unacceptable, she waved her hand at me and said "ah now we don't do anything like that". Then she said that she "might have mentioned God last week but that was all". I am getting the feeling that my concerns are being minimised and I'm being fobbed off. It was more than only "mentioning God", little Kiwi came home showing us how he learnt to 'bless himself'. And if they don't do 'genuflecting' why is it in the text book that they use?

I realise it is a Catholic school and that sort of nonsense is to be expected, so why are they not being honest with me? And why do both the Principal and Teacher insist that there is no reason to opt out on account of the religion being 'general'?

I actually wonder do they not believe that we are not any religion, and think that seeing as we are not Catholic we must be Protestant. Maybe that is what the 'general' talk is about. 'General' Christianity not specific Catholicism. If so that would not be the first time I have encountered disbelief! My own mother in law refuses to believe I am an atheist.

Beruthiel · 09-09-2013 02:57PM

I don't think you're being taken seriously Kiwi.

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

She tried to convince me that I did not need to opt out and that it's all very 'general'.

I call bullsh!t.
So they won't be preparing the kids for Holy Communion at some point in the future then....?
If you don't intend to have your child participate in that, you need to make it very clear to the teachers involved that this is the case.

robindch · 09-09-2013 02:58PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

She tried to convince me that I did not need to opt out and that it's all very 'general'. Whatever that means?

She's probably trying to avoid (a) having to provide cover in another classroom or the same classroom for your child; or (b) having other parents notice that one person has stood up and potentially losing more students.

One easy option is to leave an iPad or something like that with the teacher so your child could play with that in class while everybody else is being told about what a nice chap this Jesus bloke is.

As you say, there's nothing "general" about indoctrination at this age -- it's specifically targeted at vulnerable, trusting minds because it works.

Beruthiel · 09-09-2013 03:01PM

robindch wrote: »

As you say, there's nothing "general" about indoctrination at this age

Learning how to bless yourself isn't general. Unless every single other religion on the planet do it the same way.

Kiwi in IE · 09-09-2013 03:03PM

UDP wrote: »

Did you stick with opting out or is it left unsure?

The teacher was insistent that there is no need as it is 'only general' and integrated throughout the school day. She initiated this 'chat' with me at collection time in front of other parents. I don't really know what to do. I don't want to start a war with my child's school.

Sarky · 09-09-2013 03:07PM

It's hardly a war asking for them to actually respect the rights of you and your child.

gaynorvader · 09-09-2013 03:09PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

The teacher was insistent that there is no need as it is 'only general' and integrated throughout the school day. She initiated this 'chat' with me at collection time in front of other parents. I don't really know what to do. I don't want to start a war with my child's school.

Catch her in private. Tell her you found her bringing up what you viewed as a private matter as wholly inappropriate. Tell her you'd like to find a solution that causes as little fuss as possible without belittling your own beliefs. Tell her you'd like to opt out your child as no matter how 'general' she views it, to you it is not acceptable that he be taught these things as fact.

SpaceTime · 09-09-2013 03:10PM

Like most things, Ireland will only resolve this stuff when it's dragged (kicking and screaming) through the European Courts at some stage in the future.

Until then ... It'll be ah sure it's grand.

robindch · 09-09-2013 03:11PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

I am getting the feeling that my concerns are being minimised and I'm being fobbed off.

Minimized, yes. I had something a bit similar in a Montessori school in South Dublin some years back after making my views politely clear at the beginning of the school year. I did get the impression that nobody had ever stood up to religious control and they simply weren't quite sure how to handle it and resorted just to some very vague hand-waving.

I do remember the headmistress -- who, in fairness did take my request fairly seriously, if disbelievingly -- mentioning that the religious stuff was all fine because it was "taught inclusively" (whatever that means) and because they'd an imam in to say some prayers to balance the presence of the local parish priest who, I was assured, "is a great guy and even hands out sweets to the kids" (no comment).

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

She initiated this 'chat' with me at collection time in front of other parents. I don't really know what to do. I don't want to start a war with my child's school.

Sounds like she's playing power-politics to me, though perhaps unintentionally.

At this stage, would it be worth requesting a meeting with the teacher and the school head to discuss it? This certainly can be resolved amicably and without hassle and it does sound like they're just not sure what your expectations are.

And it begins..................

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