Bloody Sunday commander shot dead in Kenya

Karl Stein · 08-09-2013 11:41PM

mcc1 wrote: »

His unit bar a few bad apples did an admirable job in N.Ireland.

50% of the BA's killings were innocent civilians. The fact is that the BA were a player in the conflict and nothing even approaching a peace keeping force.

According to the "Sutton Index of Deaths" on CAIN, the British Army killed 305 people during Operation Banner, 156 (~51%) of whom were unarmed civilians. Elements of the Army also colluded with illegal loyalist paramilitaries responsible for numerous attacks on civilians (see below). The journalist Fintan O'Toole argues that "both militarily and ideologically, the Army was a player, not a referee".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Banner#Controversies

Nodin · 08-09-2013 11:41PM

mcc1 wrote: »

Where did I defend the actions of the soldiers who fired the shots?? Only a small number of soldiers fired shots that day most didnt fire a single one........ Yet they are being labelled murderers.

His unit bar a few bad apples did an admirable job in N.Ireland.

RIP.

...this would be the same regiment notorious for beating the crap out of lads they grabbed while on patrol or at checkpoints?

ShamoBuc · 08-09-2013 11:42PM

The evil that men do lives after them, the good is often entered with their bones, so let it be with Loden.

wonderfullife · 08-09-2013 11:48PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

Pity it didn't happen to him years ago.

The world is a better place without murderers like him around.

Correct me if i am wrong but wasn't he ambushed by armed robbers and murdered?

So this whole "world is a better place" thingy.........even if you make the leap that the man himself was a murderer (incorrect, tenuous, weak argument) then one murderer gone, 2/3/4/5/6 new murderers in the gang who ambushed him.

Either way world ain't no better. Old men/women dying doesn't improve sh1t. It only gives the resentful a chance to mouth off and celebrate.

Busted Flat. · 08-09-2013 11:51PM

What sort of a commander was he, was he having tea at the time or did he not give a fook what his men were doing.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&ved=0CD0QFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.belfasttelegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2Flocal-national%2Fnorthern-ireland%2Fbloody-sunday-colonel-edward-loden-shot-dead-in-kenya-29562478.html&ei=8f0sUoO4GcPLhAeatoHIBg&usg=AFQjCNFn3b9o55iuIN5Nh9ddB3QrJ0GKhw&bvm=bv.51773540,d.ZG4
But the Savile Report said that events on the ground were moving so quickly "after the soldiers disembarked in the Bogside that Major Loden had no idea what was actually going on, he assumed that his soldiers had come under attack from republican paramilitaries and were responding.

Karl Stein · 08-09-2013 11:57PM

wonderfullife wrote: »

incorrect, tenuous, weak argument

I understand that people such as you suspend the rules that govern us for those in green costumes but if the standards applied at the Nuremberg Trials were applied to him he'd have been hanged.

If the standards applied to the Mafia were employed he'd most certainly be convicted of murder.

mcc1 · 09-09-2013 12:09AM

Charlie Rock wrote: »

50% of the BA's killings were innocent civilians. The fact is that the BA were a player in the conflict and nothing even approaching a peace keeping force.

10's of thousands of soldiers served in N.Ireland throughout the troubles. You say 50% of those they killed were civilians or regarded as civilians which means about 170 or so.....

Percentage wise its absolutely tiny, about 0.3% if we use 50, 000 soldiers as an example as the amount that served here, although there were many more...

Yet according to you over 99% of soldiers who served in N.Ireland and didnt commit any murders are murderers. That makes sense, I suppose.......

Like I said the British Army on a whole did an admirable job in N.Ireland under the circumstances. They deserve credit for the excellent job tat the overwhelming majority did.

Busted Flat. · 09-09-2013 12:09AM

wonderfullife wrote: »

Correct me if i am wrong but wasn't he ambushed by armed robbers and murdered?

So this whole "world is a better place" thingy.........even if you make the leap that the man himself was a murderer (incorrect, tenuous, weak argument) then one murderer gone, 2/3/4/5/6 new murderers in the gang who ambushed him.

Either way world ain't no better. Old men/women dying doesn't improve sh1t. It only gives the resentful a chance to mouth off and celebrate.

Good riddence to an incompetent murderer.

Jackson watch your back the elite cannot allow you to be arrested. The honeymoon is over.

wonderfullife · 09-09-2013 12:14AM

Charlie Rock wrote: »

I understand that people such as you suspend the rules that govern us for those in green costumes but if the standards applied at the Nuremberg Trials were applied to him he'd have been hanged.

If the standards applied to the Mafia were employed he'd most certainly be convicted of murder.

Jesus Christ. Nuremburg!!

If we applied those standards to any global conflict today we could find a good reason to hang every member of Tony Blairs War Cabinet over Iraq, ditto Bush, ditto tons of countries.

Nuremburg was a show trial!! They didn't want to line them all up against a wall, obviously, had to be some sort of appearance of due process but they got everyone they wanted to get. If they truly wanted they could have got the Tea Lady working in Hitlers canteen and strung her up too.

None of the above has anything to do with an old man dying.

It's this mentality of resentment and bitterness that held up progress on this island for so long. I didn't see the likes of Gandhi or Mandela throwing any parties when people who oppressed them and wronged them died.

Let it go, it's gone, the mans dead now, plenty are dead. May they all rest in peace. We, the living, move on with some positivity.

Karl Stein · 09-09-2013 12:17AM

mcc1 wrote: »

Percentage wise its absolutely tiny, about 0.3% if we use 50, 000 soldiers as an example as the amount that served here, although there were many more...

Of course you've completely ignored the numerous weapons 'misplaced' by the UDR (a regiment of the BA) and the collusion with loyalist murder gangs who killed many hundreds of innocent, mostly Catholic, people.

The BA have a shameful record in the north. Shameful.

Busted Flat. · 09-09-2013 12:23AM

wonderfullife wrote: »

Jesus Christ. Nuremburg!!

If we applied those standards to any global conflict today we could find a good reason to hang every member of Tony Blairs War Cabinet over Iraq, ditto Bush, ditto tons of countries.

Nuremburg was a show trial!! They didn't want to line them all up against a wall, obviously, had to be some sort of appearance of due process but they got everyone they wanted to get. If they truly wanted they could have got the Tea Lady working in Hitlers canteen and strung her up too.

None of the above has anything to do with an old man dying.

It's this mentality of resentment and bitterness that held up progress on this island for so long. I didn't see the likes of Gandhi or Mandela throwing any parties when people who oppressed them and wronged them died.

Let it go, it's gone, the mans dead now, plenty are dead. May they all rest in peace. We, the living, move on with some positivity.

Get a life, the clown was in control when his troops murdered 14 people, they had already been involved in Ballymurphy the year previous this old man was a terrorist in uniform. Check this out.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBallymurphy_Massacre&ei=3AUtUv6qCIrJhAeHo4DYCQ&usg=AFQjCNHRnmPIBmnDM3Sit-yn71wPDFfOkQ&bvm=bv.51773540,d.ZG4

Six civilians were shot on 9 August, these were:
Francis Quinn (19), shot by a sniper (who had taken position at the nearby army base) while going to the aid of a wounded man.[5]
Hugh Mullan (38), a Catholic priest, shot by a sniper while going to the aid of a wounded man.[5][6]
Joan Connolly (50), shot as she stood opposite the army base.[5][7]
Daniel Teggart (44), was shot fourteen times. Most of the bullets allegedly entered his back as he lay injured on the ground.[8][5]
Noel Phillips (20), shot as he stood opposite the army base.[5][9]
Joseph Murphy (41), shot as he stood opposite the army base.[5]
One civilian was shot on 10 August, and another four were shot on 11 August, these were:
Edward Doherty (28), shot while walking along Whiterock Road.[10]
John Laverty (20) and Joseph Corr (43) were shot at separate points at the Top of the Whiterock Road. Laverty was shot twice, once in the back and once in the back of the leg. Corr was shot multiple times and died of his injuries on 27 August.[5][11]
John McKerr (49), shot by unknown attackers while standing outside the Roman Catholic church, died of his injuries on 20 August.[5][12]
Paddy McCarthy (44) got into a confrontation with a group of soldiers. One of them allegedly put an empty gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger. McCarthy suffered a heart-attack and died shortly thereafter.[13][14]

Karl Stein · 09-09-2013 12:29AM

wonderfullife wrote: »

If we applied those standards to any global conflict today we could find a good reason to hang every member of Tony Blairs War Cabinet over Iraq, ditto Bush, ditto tons of countries.

Wouldn't it be nice?

Nuremburg was a show trial!! They didn't want to line them all up against a wall

They did actually. It was the Americans who insisted on having some sort of process.

It's this mentality of resentment and bitterness that held up progress on this island for so long. I didn't see the likes of Gandhi or Mandela throwing any parties when people who oppressed them and wronged them died.

I didn't lose anyone on Bloody Sunday, or the Troubles ftm. I'm simply exposing the horribly transparent double standards on show.

Let it go, it's gone, the mans dead now, plenty are dead. May they all rest in peace. We, the living, move on with some positivity.

Em.. would you care to say that to the bereaved families who had their loved ones branded terrorists and had to watch sham enquires exonerate their murderers? What if one had been your Brother or Dad? Would you still be so recklessly conciliatory?

Even now the families are waiting for justice to be served. I doubt very much they'll ever see the murderers of their loved ones spend a day in prison.

wonderfullife · 09-09-2013 12:37AM

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Get a life, the clown was in control when his troops murdered 14 people, they had already been involved in Ballymurphy the year previous this old man was a terrorist in uniform. Check this out.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBallymurphy_Massacre&ei=3AUtUv6qCIrJhAeHo4DYCQ&usg=AFQjCNHRnmPIBmnDM3Sit-yn71wPDFfOkQ&bvm=bv.51773540,d.ZG4

Six civilians were shot on 9 August, these were:
Francis Quinn (19), shot by a sniper (who had taken position at the nearby army base) while going to the aid of a wounded man.[5]
Hugh Mullan (38), a Catholic priest, shot by a sniper while going to the aid of a wounded man.[5][6]
Joan Connolly (50), shot as she stood opposite the army base.[5][7]
Daniel Teggart (44), was shot fourteen times. Most of the bullets allegedly entered his back as he lay injured on the ground.[8][5]
Noel Phillips (20), shot as he stood opposite the army base.[5][9]
Joseph Murphy (41), shot as he stood opposite the army base.[5]
One civilian was shot on 10 August, and another four were shot on 11 August, these were:
Edward Doherty (28), shot while walking along Whiterock Road.[10]
John Laverty (20) and Joseph Corr (43) were shot at separate points at the Top of the Whiterock Road. Laverty was shot twice, once in the back and once in the back of the leg. Corr was shot multiple times and died of his injuries on 27 August.[5][11]
John McKerr (49), shot by unknown attackers while standing outside the Roman Catholic church, died of his injuries on 20 August.[5][12]
Paddy McCarthy (44) got into a confrontation with a group of soldiers. One of them allegedly put an empty gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger. McCarthy suffered a heart-attack and died shortly thereafter.[13][14]

so what? what's any of that got to do with an old man dying this year? Go celebrate his death if it makes you feel any better.

It wont bring back the dead you listed and him being dead himself won't change that.

Charlie Rock wrote: »

Em.. would you care to say that to the bereaved families who had their loved ones branded terrorists and had to watch sham enquires exonerate their murderers? What if one had been your Brother or Dad? Would you still be so recklessly conciliatory?

Even now the families are waiting for justice to be served. I doubt very much they'll ever see the murderers of their loved ones spend a day in prison.

So what is it you want? justice? More Enquiries? All the soldiers who fired a bullet up in court? Every politician of the day up in court? Them all charged with something and all locked up?

NONE of this has any relevance to the point at hand. The point at hand here is a 73 year old codger has been killed. And it won't change one thing that he's dead. If you want to go throw a party now he's dead, go for it. Knock yourself out. Won't change a thing.

Karl Stein · 09-09-2013 12:43AM

wonderfullife wrote: »

So what is it you want? justice? More Enquiries? All the soldiers who fired a bullet up in court? Every politician of the day up in court? Them all charged with something and all locked up?

Do you believe that people are entitled to justice or do you not? If someone shot a loved one of yours would you be saying 'ah shure let it go lads'?

You would like fuck.

Fwiw I'd like to see a truth commission but that's not going to happen because it would tarnish brand GB.

HansHolzel · 09-09-2013 12:46AM

These scumbags have long proved that Aldershot is a long way from Arnhem ...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/judge-frees-paras-who-savagely-beat-man-1571980.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/the-paras-fight-on-with-apparent-impunity-1572128.html

Busted Flat. · 09-09-2013 12:52AM

wonderfullife wrote: »

so what? what's any of that got to do with an old man dying this year? Go celebrate his death if it makes you feel any better.

It wont bring back the dead you listed and him being dead himself won't change that.

So what is it you want? justice? More Enquiries? All the soldiers who fired a bullet up in court? Every politician of the day up in court? Them all charged with something and all locked up?

NONE of this has any relevance to the point at hand. The point at hand here is a 73 year old codger has been killed. And it won't change one thing that he's dead. If you want to go throw a party now he's dead, go for it. Knock yourself out. Won't change a thing.

Your missing the point, they are expecting to charge some of the grunts that were on the ground, when they murdered innocent civilians. Are they trying to take the front line of command too protect Jackson, it must be a worrying time for the guys under him. As I said the big wheel keeps on turning, we can expect a few accidents and natural deaths in the future. Remember the time back in the early seventies where there was an ambushed in Belfast where 4 members of the SAS died, the news had it but were blocked, and incidentally 4 members of the BA died in a car accident in Germany. For publicity purposes the 4 guys could not be claimed to be killed in action.

wonderfullife · 09-09-2013 12:54AM

Charlie Rock wrote: »

Do you believe that people are entitled to justice or do you not? If someone shot a loved one of yours would you be saying 'ah shure let it go lads'?

You would like fuck.

Fwiw I'd like to see a truth commission but that's not going to happen because it would tarnish brand GB.

of course people are entitled to justice.

I'll ask you again for the final time as you've ignored my question twice already.

What has this mans death got to do with any of the above? you replied saying he would have been hanged if Nuremburg applied to him. Well a) it wasn't and b) he wasn't.

c) he's dead now! it Seems to me you've no point other than you feel he should have been hanged long ago and your feelings now are "good riddance" or "delighted"!!!

why bother? What's it to you that an old man is now dead? you lost nobody in the Troubles (you said so yourself). What you're doing now is the same as what 15 year olds up and down the North West of England did when Maggie died. Celebrate for the sake of it when really letting it go and moving on is far more constructive. He's dead. He can't be brought to justice so let it go.

wonderfullife · 09-09-2013 12:57AM

Busted Flat. wrote: »

Your missing the point, they are expecting to charge some of the grunts that were on the ground, when they murdered innocent civilians. Are they trying to take the front line of command too protect Jackson, it must be a worrying time for the guys under him. As I said the big wheel keeps on turning, we can expect a few accidents and natural deaths in the future. Remember the time back in the early seventies where there was an ambushed in Belfast where 4 members of the SAS died, the news had it but were blocked, and incidentally 4 members of the BA died in a car accident in Germany. For publicity purposes the 4 guys could not be claimed to be killed in action.

right so it's a conspiracy and they got him bumped off in kenya in front of a shed load of witnesses. Brilliant.

Right i'll leave you to it, im sure you have some celebrating to do or conspiracy stories to concoct.

Busted Flat. · 09-09-2013 01:02AM

wonderfullife wrote: »

right so it's a conspiracy and they got him bumped off in kenya in front of a shed load of witnesses. Brilliant.

Right i'll leave you to it, im sure you have some celebrating to do or conspiracy stories to concoct.

No conspiracy theories, I will just sit back and watch the big wheel and the efforts the establishment goes to protect themselves.

Karl Stein · 09-09-2013 01:04AM

wonderfullife wrote: »

of course people are entitled to justice.

So you'd agree that the 'soldiers' who murdered people on Bloody Sunday should be convicted for murder? Gosh, we're birds of a feather you and I.

What has this mans death got to do with any of the above? you replied saying he would have been hanged if Nuremburg applied to him. Well a) it wasn't and b) he wasn't.

I was responding to the murder apologists incoherent ramblings not that question.

c) he's dead now! it Seems to me you've no point other than you feel he should have been hanged long ago and your feelings now are "good riddance" or "delighted"!!!

I don't rejoice in the violent death of any person. I'm anti death penalty as it happens. I wouldn't have minded seeing the people of Derry getting some justice when this guy was a lot younger. He's got 40 years more life than those who were murdered by the scumbags under his command.

Son Of A Vidic · 09-09-2013 01:07AM

Banjo String wrote: »

Bloody Sunday commander shot dead in Kenya

Was he waving a white flag at the time?

wonderfullife · 09-09-2013 01:07AM

Busted Flat. wrote: »

No conspiracy theories, I will just sit back and watch the big wheel and the efforts the establishment goes to protect themselves.

i see. The 'establishment' of 1972 who would have the most to be afraid of by anything - half of them are dead, the other half are old codgers who won't be tried or sentenced.

The current 'establishment' couldn't give a monkeys. Nothing to do with them. Certainly not enough to get old men bumped off in Kenya like you are suggesting.

David Cameron was 5 years old when it happened. I'm sure he's worried.

Busted Flat. · 09-09-2013 01:09AM

Just watching the end of the film Bloody Sunday, The Paras can feel real proud, if only a fraction of this is true. Brave soldiers, live with your conscience if you can. Watch your back if you were there on that fateful day, it will not be Republicans that are a worry it is your own, that will not let you talk.

Sound of Silence · 09-09-2013 01:09AM

wonderfullife wrote: »

of course people are entitled to justice.

People are entitled to justice, sure, but that doesn't mean they will ever see it.

I'll preface what I'm about to say by saying that I didn't lose anyone in Bloody Sunday, but I'll attempt to envision what this might mean to someone who lost a family member.

This "Old Codger" like many of the players in the Troubles never had to answer for the crimes he committed. He got to walk free amidst the rubble of countless broken lives, and might even have eeked out nice little existence after the fact.

And sure, his death might mean nothing in the grand scale of things, but for some I'm sure this is as close to justice as they're ever likely to see. And that in itself might seem slightly sad, but it speaks volumes about the conflict.

Busted Flat. · 09-09-2013 01:11AM

wonderfullife wrote: »

i see. The 'establishment' of 1972 who would have the most to be afraid of by anything - half of them are dead, the other half are old codgers who won't be tried or sentenced.

The current 'establishment' couldn't give a monkeys. Nothing to do with them. Certainly not enough to get old men bumped off in Kenya like you are suggesting.

David Cameron was 5 years old when it happened. I'm sure he's worried.

The establishment. Do you know what it is about.

wonderfullife · 09-09-2013 01:11AM

Charlie Rock wrote: »

So you'd agree that the 'soldiers' who murdered people on Bloody Sunday should be convicted for murder? Gosh, we're birds of a feather you and I.

I was responding to the murder apologists incoherent ramblings not that question.

I don't rejoice in the violent death of any person. I'm anti death penalty as it happens. I wouldn't have minded seeing the people of Derry getting some justice when this guy was a lot younger. He's got 40 years more life than those who were murdered by the scumbags under his command.

no i dont think they should be convicted of murder.

I'm not a judge and i dont sit on a jury.

I agree there should have been a proper investigation (independent, if necessary) and if that resulted in criminal charges, then they should have been tried for the charges. Manslaughter, murder, whatever it was.

I'm all for people being held accountable , which clearly didn't happen here.

end of the road · 09-09-2013 01:15AM

mcc1 wrote: »

10's of thousands of soldiers served in N.Ireland throughout the troubles. You say 50% of those they killed were civilians or regarded as civilians which means about 170 or so.....

Percentage wise its absolutely tiny, about 0.3% if we use 50, 000 soldiers as an example as the amount that served here, although there were many more...

Yet according to you over 99% of soldiers who served in N.Ireland and didnt commit any murders are murderers. That makes sense, I suppose.......

Like I said the British Army on a whole did an admirable job in N.Ireland under the circumstances. They deserve credit for the excellent job tat the overwhelming majority did.

the BA were vermin who if they weren't murdering civilians they were treating people like rubbish because they were irish, and helping the loyalists, they did a rubbish job and over many times gave the IRA so many recruiting tools that would have made al-quieda jealous had they existed, they got away with bloody sunday like all the other stuff probably helped no doubt by the british government or parts of it at least

Karl Stein · 09-09-2013 01:17AM

wonderfullife wrote: »

I agree there should have been a proper investigation (independent, if necessary) and if that resulted in criminal charges, then they should have been tried for the charges. Manslaughter, murder, whatever it was.

I'm all for people being held accountable , which clearly didn't happen here.

Amazing how much we have in common you and me.

Busted Flat. · 09-09-2013 01:19AM

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Was he waving a white flag at the time?

No a hanky.

end of the road · 09-09-2013 01:21AM

wonderfullife wrote: »

Let it go

no

wonderfullife wrote: »

it's gone

no it isn't, the memories of those murderous acts by BA vermin in NI live on

wonderfullife wrote: »

the mans dead now

no loss, good riddens

Bloody Sunday commander shot dead in Kenya

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