1 in 6 believe immigration has benefited the UK?

FTA69 · 03-09-2013 02:08PM

Cathal Cloch wrote: »

Unfortunately immigration debates tend to attract racists, the stupid, the unreasonable, the dim, the angry at everything, the 'knows-what-they're-against' but not what they're for types.

Bad weather? Blame the immigrants.

Soup too salty? Blame the immigrants.

Shoelaces come undone? Blame the immigrants.

"I see the PC Brigade has arrived...."

"Why is the term "racist" used to silence discussion?"

"None of you college lefties live in the real world."

"Rabble rabble rabble"

old hippy · 03-09-2013 02:10PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Not sure would that be a bad thing, will it not give Britain more control on the amount of people allowed to enter their country?

Immigration was handled badly here IMO, in 2004 we basically went from having little or no migration here to the floodgates being opened in a matter of months and I'm not sure the country was ready for that.

Floodgates, you say?

Guyanachronism · 03-09-2013 02:10PM

I think the headline "Torygraph narrative effectively misinforming public opinion" would have been more fitting.

Their biggest concerns were the idea of migrants claiming benefits or using public services without having contributed in return, and added pressure on schools and hospital, the poll published in The Sunday Times found.

British public wrong about almost everything

Benefit fraud: the public think that £24 of every £100 of benefits is fraudulently claimed. Official estimates are that just 70 pence in every £100 is fraudulent - so the public conception is out by a factor of 34.

Immigration: some 31 per cent of the population is thought to consist of recent immigrants, when the figure is actually 13 per cent. Even including illegal immigrants, the figure is only about 15 per cent. On the issue of ethnicity, black and Asian people are thought to make up 30 per cent of the population, when the figure is closer to 11 per cent.

Immigration is not a drain on public coffers, OECD report shows

Even the Telegraph reiterated the point that migrants contribute more than they take out:
Immigration and the British economy: the awful truth is revealed

Cee-Jay-Cee · 03-09-2013 02:11PM

woodoo wrote: »

You don't hear any real debate on the radio, on current affairs programs, in the Dail, in the papers etc either?

Because this country has gone so far into the PC way of approaching subjects that they are afraid of their lives to say anything as next thing they know they're being added as deponents in civil claims by these people and with the way the country is the plaintiffs (immigrants) would no doubt win.

We cannot afford any more immigrants coming here and draining the SW system. We should adopt the Dutch program and if they haven't found work within 6 months, they're sent home.

Galwayguy35 · 03-09-2013 02:13PM

old hippy wrote: »

Floodgates, you say?

Yeah, maybe you don't remember.

Galwayguy35 · 03-09-2013 02:15PM

CJC999 wrote: »

Because this country has gone so far into the PC way of approaching subjects that they are afraid of their lives to say anything as next thing they know they're being added as deponents in civil claims by these people and with the way the country is the plaintiffs (immigrants) would no doubt win.

We cannot afford any more immigrants coming here and draining the SW system. We should adopt the Dutch program and if they haven't found work within 6 months, they're sent home.

Ha!

Can't see the lefty liberals in Labour pushing that one through.

old hippy · 03-09-2013 02:16PM

CJC999 wrote: »

Because this country has gone so far into the PC way of approaching subjects that they are afraid of their lives to say anything as next thing they know they're being added as deponents in civil claims by these people and with the way the country is the plaintiffs (immigrants) would no doubt win.

We cannot afford any more immigrants coming here and draining the SW system. We should adopt the Dutch program and if they haven't found work within 6 months, they're sent home.

These people, you say?

We should, you say?

old hippy · 03-09-2013 02:17PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Yeah, maybe you don't remember.

Tell me about it. These floodgates.

munchkin_utd · 03-09-2013 02:23PM

old hippy wrote: »

Floodgates, you say?

indeed, the man is correct.
Ireland had one of the most liberal immigration policies in the world. There was more vetting in America in the days of ellis Island than in Ireland during the boom!

ANYONE from anywhere in the world could get a work visa simply by having an employer vouch that they couldnt find someone in the EU to fill a position.

It was very very badly handled by the FF government who firstly created the housing bubble through their mad tax incentives and then had to open the doors to all comers to deal with a labour shortage, and they couldnt manage that properly either.

Galwayguy35 · 03-09-2013 02:27PM

old hippy wrote: »

Tell me about it. These floodgates.

You know what no I don't think I will because unless you were living under a rock back in 2004 you would know what I am talking about.

steddyeddy · 03-09-2013 02:29PM

Immigration is good if the people who enter the country has the desired skill set for a country. I plan to immigate to Germany soon but I would be ashamed to turn up without word one of German.

_Kaiser_ · 03-09-2013 02:31PM

It's very simple really...

This country is broke and living on borrowed money, and we have enough people on the streets or struggling without taking on more. Charity begins at home.

If someone wants to come here that's fine, IF:
- They're here to work and contribute
- They integrate into their new home and adapt to the social norms, customs and language

Turning up off the plane/boat without a job to go to, or money to see them through, or expecting the locals to bend over to accommodate every cultural idiosyncrasy they bring with them - that should earn them a one-way ticket home.

(Awaits all the "racist"/"xenophobe" trolling :rolleyes:)

_Kaiser_ · 03-09-2013 02:32PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Immigration is good if the people who enter the country has the desired skill set for a country. I plan to immigate to Germany soon but I would be ashamed to turn up without word one of German.

And I bet you wouldn't expect to get very far without it either.. and so you'd learn and adapt.

(ie: the correct approach to moving to another country)

old hippy · 03-09-2013 02:33PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

You know what no I don't think I will because unless you were living under a rock back in 2004 you would know what I am talking about.

I want you to tell me about these floodgates, no weasel words.

wendell borton · 03-09-2013 02:36PM

redtapestyl wrote: »

We're not allowed to have negative opinions on immigration I'm afraid.

....and if you do your a racist.

steddyeddy · 03-09-2013 02:36PM

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

And I bet you wouldn't expect to get very far without it either.. and so you'd learn and adapt.

(ie: the correct approach to moving to another country)

No I wouldn't at all. I would feel it insulting to the native people to expect them to suit my needs rather than vice versa.

Guyanachronism · 03-09-2013 02:41PM

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

It's very simple really...

This country is broke and living on borrowed money, and we have enough people on the streets or struggling without taking on more. Charity begind at home.

If someone wants to come here that's fine, IF:
- They're here to work and contribute
- They integrate into their new home and adapt to the social norms, customs and language

Turning up off the plane/boat without a job to go to, or money to see them through, or expecting the locals to bend over to accommodate every cultural idiosyncrasy they bring with them. That should earn them a one-way ticket home.

(Awaits all the "racist"/"xenophobe" trolling :rolleyes:)

What about somebody who came from say Poland in the midst of the boom, worked in construction until the crash all above board, he has paid tax, prsi etc. during his years of work. but has ended up unemployed but wants to remain in Irland, because he has laid down roots. Should he get social welfare?

I know these putting or own first, charity begins at home etc. hyperbole gets a knee jerk nodding agreement. But I would feel better about giving welfare to a foreigner who has worked and has ended up unemployed than an Irish person who is a social welfare scrounger, never having worked a day in their life.

Now I believe everyone on welfare should have limits and should be looking for work, so obviously if he becomes a scrounger not looking for work he should be cut off, but not before the life long dole scrounger.

Does that make me PC brigade lefty to think that? Is it so awful to think that welfare and such should be based on the contribution and situation of the individual rather than where they were born?

That or respond to the facts of the matter in my previous post.

Also no one, from other EU member states or outside have an automatic right to welfare on arrival, they have to fufill the habitual residency conditions. They also have no right to remain in the country after 90 days if they aren't working, studying, self sufficient or dependent family member of one of the other categories.

_Kaiser_ · 03-09-2013 02:42PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

No I wouldn't at all. I would feel it insulting to the native people to expect them to suit my needs rather than vice versa.

Exactly.. I actually lived in Holland myself for a few years as a kid in the 80s.
My mam learned Dutch (as did the rest of us), went to work under their employment laws and we lived according to their social norms.

The idea that we could just turn up and expect to setup "little Ireland", sit on welfare and insist everyone deal with us in English would have been unheard of.

It actually was a great benefit as a kid I think as we got to see this different culture/cultures (back then their schools were where we are now with regards to immigration) and how they did things in general, I do think it's a big part of the reason why I have so little tolerance for some of the nonsense that goes on in this country as a result.

Galwayguy35 · 03-09-2013 02:44PM

old hippy wrote: »

I want you to tell me about these floodgates, no weasel words.

There was an influx of immigrants into Ireland over a very short period of time when the Eastern block countries joined up.

Very little opportunity for the country to get used to what was happening, when the country went bust while many went home others didn't and remain on social welfare.

enda1 · 03-09-2013 02:48PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

There was an influx of immigrants into Ireland over a very short period of time when the Eastern block countries joined up.

Very little opportunity for the country to get used to what was happening, when the country went bust while many went home others didn't and remain on social welfare.

I wonder if there are more foreign citizens in Ireland on social welfare or more Irish citizens abroad on social welfare. I'd hazard a guess at the latter.

old hippy · 03-09-2013 02:51PM

wendell borton wrote: »

....and if you do your a racist.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

Nodin · 03-09-2013 02:51PM

CJC999 wrote: »

We cannot afford any more immigrants coming here and draining the SW system. We should adopt the Dutch program and if they haven't found work within 6 months, they're sent home.

You can't come here and claim. For the millionth time.

munchkinltd wrote:

Ireland had one of the most liberal immigration policies in the world. There
was more vetting in America in the days of ellis Island than in Ireland during
the boom!

The vast majority of those who came here were from Europe, with the free movement area.

_Kaiser_ · 03-09-2013 02:52PM

enda1 wrote: »

I wonder if there are more foreign citizens in Ireland on social welfare or more Irish citizens abroad on social welfare. I'd hazard a guess at the latter.

I'd imagine you're quite wrong if for no other reason than most other countries do have sensible, enforced immigration policies and rules around welfare.

Not the "case-by-case", "ah shure it'll be grand" nonsense we have here.

Galwayguy35 · 03-09-2013 02:54PM

enda1 wrote: »

I wonder if there are more foreign citizens in Ireland on social welfare or more Irish citizens abroad on social welfare. I'd hazard a guess at the latter.

Not really relevant to the discussion, that's for those countries to deal with.

I'd dispute it though, most of the Irish are ending up in Australia, NZ and Canada these days, over in those places if you haven't got work in a certain period of time you have to go home.

Nodin · 03-09-2013 02:57PM

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I'd imagine you're quite wrong if for no other reason than most other countries do have sensible, enforced immigration policies and rules around welfare.

Not the "case-by-case", "ah shure it'll be grand" nonsense we have here.

Do please describe the "nonsense" we have here. I'm curious.

enda1 · 03-09-2013 03:08PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Not really relevant to the discussion, that's for those countries to deal with.

I'd dispute it though, most of the Irish are ending up in Australia, NZ and Canada these days, over in those places if you haven't got work in a certain period of time you have to go home.

The UK has by far the greatest number of Irish abroad. There are about 500,000 Irish born people, resident in the UK. The laws regarding Irish in UK and British (Polish, Latvian etc.) in Ireland are mainly determined by the Maastricht treaty which we (as countries) all signed. So it is a European law issue, not a national issue.

Galwayguy35 · 03-09-2013 03:15PM

enda1 wrote: »

The UK has by far the greatest number of Irish abroad. There are about 500,000 Irish born people, resident in the UK. The laws regarding Irish in UK and British (Polish, Latvian etc.) in Ireland are mainly determined by the Maastricht treaty which we (as countries) all signed. So it is a European law issue, not a national issue.

Which might be a reason why the Brits are having a vote on leaving the EU.

I've no doubt the British taxpayer isn't happy about having this drain on their taxes either and it's hard to blame them.

But back to here in Ireland, your average Eastern European makes as much if no more on welfare here than back in their own countries so why would they bother going home?

Nodin · 03-09-2013 03:18PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

.........

But back to here in Ireland, your average Eastern European makes as much if no more on welfare here than back in their own countries so why would they bother going home?

...I wonder betimes.....I really do.

They're living here, paying our prices, rents, taxes etc. Therefore they are not better off.

enda1 · 03-09-2013 03:19PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Which might be a reason why the Brits are having a vote on leaving the EU.

I've no doubt the British taxpayer isn't happy about having this drain on their taxes either and it's hard to blame them.

But back to here in Ireland, your average Eastern European makes as much if no more on welfare here than back in their own countries so why would they bother going home?

They'd have no right to claim any social welfare in their country in either case. Joining the EU has benefited Ireland greatly over decades. You can no just accept the positives and sniffle at the (perceived) negatives. Take the rough with the smooth and move on. An Irish person on welfare and a Polish person on welfare are the same. They are the same drain on the economy and each have an equal right to be in Ireland, much the same as a Kerryman is allowed to live in Laois.

Guyanachronism · 03-09-2013 03:19PM

enda1 wrote: »

The UK has by far the greatest number of Irish abroad. There are about 500,000 Irish born people, resident in the UK. The laws regarding Irish in UK and British (Polish, Latvian etc.) in Ireland are mainly determined by the Maastricht treaty which we (as countries) all signed. So it is a European law issue, not a national issue.

Are they? While Ireland and UK are governed by free movement of EU persons for the single market, they aren't part of Schegen.

Ireland and the UK has the common travel area. Which is a lot more liberal than EU free movement into the UK or Ireland. UK still has border controls and requires passports, you don't need a passport as an Irish person entering the UK.

1 in 6 believe immigration has benefited the UK?

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