Ladies your opinions on men using brothels and prostitutes

starling · 27-08-2013 10:04AM

MaxWig wrote: »

"a lot of people think "No I paid her she consented" and never think of it as being anywhere near rape. And if someone said "prostitution is essentially rape" to them they'd genuinely disagree and probably even be shocked - they'd think "she consented" and not look too closely at the question of how the payment influenced that consent"

I read it again.

If I'm wrong, and that's not what you are implying, I'm sorry

Read it again then. Where do I say that I think all prostitution is rape? Cause it wasn't in that quote.

MaxWig · 27-08-2013 10:04AM

starling wrote: »

If you read what I actually wrote, rather than looking for a reason to attack me, you'll see that I am saying "abuse affects some people in this way" and that we can't assume that everyone thinks the same way we do. That's just basic, anyone who's even heard of psychology can see that, because if everyone saw things the same way we'd never have needed to invent a field like psychology. It doesn't mean I'm patronising anyone.

I'm not looking for a reason to attack anyone.

Maybe we agree more than we imagined.

Abuse effects everyone differently. So does everything. So does an over-bearing mother, a bullying experience, a period of sickness as a child.

Deciding who is ok mentally and emotionally and who is not is a dodgy endeavour though. Unless you are talking about pathology, you are in murky territory assuming that your own view, or way of being is in any way favourable, even if it seems obvious to you.

The sense I'm getting from this thread is that a prostitute is (by definition) in some way emotionally or mentally deficient through an experience of neglect/abuse/trauma or whatever. I have absolutely no doubt that this is true in some cases. None. I have no doubt that trafficking exists. None. I have no doubt that some people who visit prostitutes are pigs. None. I have no doubt that some prostitutes are underage. None.

These facts should not determine responses to prostitution, or clients.

They should wake people up to the fact that the industry needs to be regulated, policed and brought into the light

MaxWig · 27-08-2013 10:10AM

starling wrote: »

Read it again then. Where do I say that I think all prostitution is rape? Cause it wasn't in that quote.

Really no need to read it again.

The implication is clear. The two phenomena are linked.

You do not say 'all prostitution is rape', but the inherent aspects of each phenomenon are compared through the use of the 'third person' (naturally) and are found to be comparable.

Anyway, teasing this out has been a waste of both our time

starling · 27-08-2013 10:20AM

clairefontaine wrote: »

It is complicated when you consider the effects of alcohol on judgement and also on memory.

Ever heard of revisionism?

Alcohol may cause you to make decisions you regret later. Doesn't mean you were raped. You know whether you had drunk sex or were raped. You don't want to have sex one night and then forget in the morning that you wanted it. You might not remember the other person's name, but you don't forget whether the sex was something you wanted or not. People claim that that happens in order to get away with rape, or in order to let someone else away with it for whatever reason.

There are many reasons why people wilfully believe that someone who says "I was raped" is making it up. They don't want to think that that nice college boy, or that buddy of theirs at the next desk in work, or that guy who is so personable and likeable could be a rapist. They want to believe that rapists are all creepy strangers or people who have clear difficulty behaving appropriately in company. They don't want accept the truth, which is that most rapists are just like everyone else in every way except for the fact that they will have sex with someone who doesn't want it.

Or they don't want to accept how common rape is, for whatever reason. Maybe it's too scary or depressing to think of the world that way. It is scary and depressing. If they're women and/or particularly vulnerable to rape, if the rape victim they're reading about could just as easily have been them, they don't like to look at all the times in their own lives when they could have been raped except that they weren't in the company of a rapist. They want to find a reason to believe it's not true because it makes it easier to go through day to day life ignoring the fact that anyone could be raped under the right circumstances.

Or maybe they were in the situation the victim is describing and they did something differently. Screamed and shouted and kicked up a fuss, maybe. They can't imagine why the victim didn't do the same and they can't accept the reasons the victim gives as to why they didn't react in that way, or that people are different and that where one person might get angry and fight, another may freeze out of fear and just hope it'll be over soon.

There's as many reasons to believe a rape claim is false as there are people, everyone has their own particular reasons for thinking that. The problem is when they automatically assume that a rape victim is lying and say so. That makes it more difficult to report and prosecute rape and makes it easier for rapists to get away with it.

MaxWig · 27-08-2013 10:21AM

clairefontaine wrote: »

No I just wonder how much you might do to ensure consent is as consenting as possible. Like check ID for age and nationality.

I think the industry should be regulated to within an inch of its life.

It frustrates me to the point of tears to see these discussions about vulnerable people, be it in terms of drug use, prostitution or whatever other prohibited interaction you're having yourself.

MaxWig · 27-08-2013 10:24AM

starling wrote: »

Those are just your opinions.

That's correct

gcgirl · 27-08-2013 10:29AM

fits wrote: »

I just actually cannot get my head around how you can have sex with a person, who is only having sex with you because you paid them.

Unfortunately plenty of marriages are like that

starling · 27-08-2013 10:33AM

MaxWig wrote: »

I'm not looking for a reason to attack anyone.

Maybe we agree more than we imagined.

Abuse effects everyone differently. So does everything. So does an over-bearing mother, a bullying experience, a period of sickness as a child.

Deciding who is ok mentally and emotionally and who is not is a dodgy endeavour though. Unless you are talking about pathology, you are in murky territory assuming that your own view, or way of being is in any way favourable, even if it seems obvious to you.

The sense I'm getting from this thread is that a prostitute is (by definition) in some way emotionally or mentally deficient through an experience of neglect/abuse/trauma or whatever. I have absolutely no doubt that this is true in some cases. None. I have no doubt that trafficking exists. None. I have no doubt that some people who visit prostitutes are pigs. None. I have no doubt that some prostitutes are underage. None.

These facts should not determine responses to prostitution, or clients.

They should wake people up to the fact that the industry needs to be regulated, policed and brought into the light

First of all, I note that you're talking a lot about "the sense you're getting" i.e. what you imagine as opposed to what people are actually saying. As to the rest, I have never said that a prostitute is by definition emotionally or mentally deficient. I said that some people are more likely to get into prostitution if they are survivors of abuse in early life. On no account is that the same thing as saying that all prostitutes got into sex work because they are in some way deficient. Again, you're ascribing opinions to me that I have never held or expressed.

In fact if you had actually read the thread properly you'd have noticed that quite a few posters, myself included, have said that prostitution should be legalised and regulated as part of making it safer for both the sex worker and the client.

MaxWig wrote: »

Really no need to read it again.

The implication is clear. The two phenomena are linked.

You do not say 'all prostitution is rape', but the inherent aspects of each phenomenon are compared through the use of the 'third person' (naturally) and are found to be comparable.

Anyway, teasing this out has been a waste of both our time

No. Forget the "implication" that you think is so clear. mariaalice and I were talking about the people who visit prostitutes and whether they consider what they're doing to be rape. I pointed out that most of them for whatever reason believe that the acceptance of payment negates any consent issues and that if someone said to them, "Prostitution is rape" most of them would be genuinely baffled and probably offended.

Again, because for some reason this isn't clear to you, at no stage did I say "All prostitution is rape." If you assumed that I held that opinion or was implying it, you are wrong. If I held that opinion I would say it clearly, none of this passive agressive "implying" cr@p. Why, when I tell you I hold one opinion, do you insist on imagining that I am implying a different opinion?

What's been a waste of time here has been me repeatedly asking you to read what I actually write, not what you imagine I might think, and then typing it all AGAIN because you either can't be bothered to read what I'm saying or you are being wilfully obtuse. Either way it's a waste of my time.

MaxWig · 27-08-2013 11:02AM

starling wrote: »

First of all, I note that you're talking a lot about "the sense you're getting" i.e. what you imagine as opposed to what people are actually saying. As to the rest, I have never said that a prostitute is by definition emotionally or mentally deficient. I said that some people are more likely to get into prostitution if they are survivors of abuse in early life. On no account is that the same thing as saying that all prostitutes got into sex work because they are in some way deficient. Again, you're ascribing opinions to me that I have never held or expressed.

In fact if you had actually read the thread properly you'd have noticed that quite a few posters, myself included, have said that prostitution should be legalised and regulated as part of making it safer for both the sex worker and the client.

No. Forget the "implication" that you think is so clear. mariaalice and I were talking about the people who visit prostitutes and whether they consider what they're doing to be rape. I pointed out that most of them for whatever reason believe that the acceptance of payment negates any consent issues and that if someone said to them, "Prostitution is rape" most of them would be genuinely baffled and probably offended.

Again, because for some reason this isn't clear to you, at no stage did I say "All prostitution is rape." If you assumed that I held that opinion or was implying it, you are wrong. If I held that opinion I would say it clearly, none of this passive agressive "implying" cr@p. Why, when I tell you I hold one opinion, do you insist on imagining that I am implying a different opinion?

What's been a waste of time here has been me repeatedly asking you to read what I actually write, not what you imagine I might think, and then typing it all AGAIN because you either can't be bothered to read what I'm saying or you are being wilfully obtuse. Either way it's a waste of my time.

Reading a thread that has been contributed to by many, one would have to be very limited not to derive a 'sense' of how the thread is veering, or swaying. It is as valuable as literally dissecting each post ad nauseum.

Things are getting a little silly, as I find myself writing 'I never said that you said.....', but you get the gist, and can fill in the rest.

I genuinely apologise if I missed your point regarding rape and consent and prostitution.

Subtexts and implications are not passive aggressive, nor are they imagined, mythical things. They are real, and they are appreciated by millions every day. They help us enjoy comedy, subtle jokes, drama, etc etc. Being angry that someone misunderstood you won't help. But again I apologies if I misconstrued what you said.

"I'd see it as they're paying for consent to sex - they want sex, they want a woman who won't turn them down, so they pay a prostitute. That way they can tell themselves it's not rape because she consented - and they won't be prosecuted for rape"

If we take this submission by yourself for example, and read it closely, we can see that you don't say that using a prostitute is tantamount to rape. Clearly you don't do that. What you say is that by paying for sex, 'they can tell themselves it's not rape', and best of all, they won't be prosecuted for rape.

Obviously anyone who read that and thought you were making any analogy comparing prostitution to rape is an imbecile, right?

Well, I apologise

Love2u · 27-08-2013 11:10AM

Firstly why were they away on a holiday without their wives? Why didn't the wives go with them? A group of men together on a foreign holiday is a no go area with me. Also if they feel the need to visit brothels I'd question the relationship they have with their wives. It's a pretty sick act, and to pay money for sex is low.

starling · 27-08-2013 11:26AM

MaxWig wrote: »

Reading a thread that has been contributed to by many, one would have to be very limited not to derive a 'sense' of how the thread is veering, or swaying. It is as valuable as literally dissecting each post ad nauseum.

Your "sense" of the thread in general is different from the things I am actually saying, please keep that in mind, because you appear to be allowing the former to influence your understanding of the latter.

MaxWig wrote: »

Things are getting a little silly, as I find myself writing 'I never said that you said.....', but you get the gist, and can fill in the rest.

We both know you insisted I was saying things I wasn't saying, including but not limited to "prostitution = rape." Let's not backtrack now.

MaxWig wrote: »

I genuinely apologise if I missed your point regarding rape and consent and prostitution.

You did, apology accepted.

MaxWig wrote: »

Subtexts and implications are not passive aggressive, nor are they imagined, mythical things. They are real, and they are appreciated by millions every day. They help us enjoy comedy, subtle jokes, drama, etc etc.

Again you've misunderstood me, but in this case perhaps I wasn't clear enough: if you insist on seeing a subtext or implication I didn't intend, because you are not reading what I'm actually saying, you are being passive-aggressive.

Thanks for the lesson about subtext but I'm quite familiar with the idea so no need to explain it to me. Again, I never said (or implied) that subtext and implications are not real. Can you just try paying attention to what I'm saying and not what you imagine I'm saying? It would save everyone a lot of time and hassle.

MaxWig wrote: »

Being angry that someone misunderstood you won't help. But again I apologies if I misconstrued what you said.

I'm not angry. Please stop imagining what I'm saying or thinking or feeling. I'm frustrated that you refuse to actually read what I'm writing and instead insist on reading things I've never written. I'm annoyed that I have to explain these things to you more than once and that despite the fact that you can't or won't understand the things I'm clearly saying, you are ascribing opinions to me that I do not hold and being quite patronising to boot.

MaxWig wrote: »

"I'd see it as they're paying for consent to sex - they want sex, they want a woman who won't turn them down, so they pay a prostitute. That way they can tell themselves it's not rape because she consented - and they won't be prosecuted for rape"

If we take this submission by yourself for example, and read it closely, we can see that you don't say that using a prostitute is tantamount to rape. Clearly you don't do that. What you say is that by paying for sex, 'they can tell themselves it's not rape', and best of all, they won't be prosecuted for rape.

Obviously anyone who read that and thought you were making any analogy comparing prostitution to rape is an imbecile, right?

Well, I apologise

Frankly, yes. Anyone who read that and thought I was comparing prostitution to rape is an imbecile. Because what i said was "punters don't think or want to think that what they're doing is rape."

For the nth time: If I thought that all prostitution was de facto rape, I would say so. I don't, so I didn't. Is that clear enough?

starling · 27-08-2013 11:28AM

Love2u wrote: »

Firstly why were they away on a holiday without their wives? Why didn't the wives go with them? A group of men together on a foreign holiday is a no go area with me. Also if they feel the need to visit brothels I'd question the relationship they have with their wives. It's a pretty sick act, and to pay money for sex is low.

Ah well, a group of men who like golf going away together isn't a big deal. Men need time with their male friends just like we need to have a bit of time with our female friends, there's nothing wrong with that in itself. A couple don't need to spend every waking moment together.

But yeah, they're cheating on their wives, which is a sh1t thing to do, no matter whether you do it with a prostitute or anyone else.

gcgirl · 27-08-2013 11:35AM

Love2u wrote: »

Firstly why were they away on a holiday without their wives? Why didn't the wives go with them? A group of men together on a foreign holiday is a no go area with me. Also if they feel the need to visit brothels I'd question the relationship they have with their wives. It's a pretty sick act, and to pay money for sex is low.

Its not uncommon for lads solely going on stags/golf outings it was very common during the boom, not so much now less money and all that but the demographic was these men possibly married the first woman they met and its not uncommon for Irish women to say sex is out of the picture(blame their mothers since their mothers possibly told them its dirty, that manifests) for men like that i don't blame them personally would not like to be in a sexless relationship myself, you'd want to be really nieve thinking stags are wholesome things

MaxWig · 27-08-2013 11:41AM

starling wrote: »

Frankly, yes. Anyone who read that and thought I was comparing prostitution to rape is an imbecile. Because what i said was "punters don't think or want to think that what they're doing is rape."

For the nth time: If I thought that all prostitution was de facto rape, I would say so. I don't, so I didn't. Is that clear enough?

You say you understand subtext, implications, etc etc.

And yet you won't acknowledge the significance of saying that "punters don't think or want to think that what they're doing is rape."

It's either significant or it's not.

"punters don't think or want to think that what they're doing is quantam- mechanics."

"punters don't think or want to think that what they're doing is mowing the lawn."

Unless there is some allusion, your statement is gibberish.

starling · 27-08-2013 11:43AM

gcgirl wrote: »

Its not uncommon for lads solely going on stags/golf outings it was very common during the boom, not so much now less money and all that but the demographic was these men possibly married the first woman they met and its not uncommon for Irish women to say sex is out of the picture(blame their mothers since their mothers possibly told them its dirty, that manifests) for men like that i don't blame them personally would not like to be in a sexless relationship myself, you'd want to be really nieve thinking stags are wholesome things

Here, we're not talking about a stag, I have fairly low opinions of those myself, but I think you're making a lot of assumptions there. My dad and his brother were best friends and when my uncle bought a house in france they and a friend of theirs would go over on holidays and do a bit of work on it, believe me there was no messing around with prostitutes there. They just loved spending a week or ten days with their pals having the craic, forgetting for a while about the worries of everyday life, and not bothering to shave etc.

Just like every time a married woman goes on the piss with her friends it doesn't mean she's on the pull, every time a man spends time away from his wife it doesn't mean anything is wrong with their marriage or that he's off cheating on her.

starling · 27-08-2013 11:45AM

MaxWig wrote: »

You say you understand subtext, implications, etc etc.

And yet you won't acknowledge the significance of saying that "punters don't think or want to think that what they're doing is rape."

It's either significant or it's not.

"punters don't think or want to think that what they're doing is quantam- mechanics."

"punters don't think or want to think that what they're doing is mowing the lawn."

Unless there is some allusion, your statement is gibberish.

It's not gibberish, it's very clear and it's not my fault if you won't can't understand what i'm saying.

MaxWig · 27-08-2013 11:46AM

starling wrote: »

It's not gibberish, it's very clear and it's not my fault if you won't can't understand what i'm saying.

OK

I 'refuse' to understand what you're saying

27-08-2013 11:47AM

gcgirl wrote: »

Its not uncommon for lads solely going on stags/golf outings it was very common during the boom, not so much now less money and all that but the demographic was these men possibly married the first woman they met and its not uncommon for Irish women to say sex is out of the picture(blame their mothers since their mothers possibly told them its dirty, that manifests) for men like that i don't blame them personally would not like to be in a sexless relationship myself, you'd want to be really nieve thinking stags are wholesome things

I love how the wives get blamed, even though there's no evidence that suggests they're in any way culpable.

It's almost funny how often adult men are excused and either the mothers or wives are blamed for their behaviour. Even worse when a woman is doing it though, makes it harder to kick into touch.

MaxWig · 27-08-2013 11:51AM

Candie wrote: »

I love how the wives get blamed, even though there's no evidence that suggests they're in any way culpable.

It's almost funny how often adult men are excused and either the mothers or wives are blamed for their behaviour. Even worse when a woman is doing it though, makes it harder to kick into touch.

I had to go to three shops last week for a two-pin socket adapter.

First two didn't have them.

I'm not blaming them. They just didn't sell three-pin socket adapters

27-08-2013 11:55AM

MaxWig wrote: »

I had to go to three shops last week for a two-pin socket adapter.

First two didn't have them.

I'm not blaming them. They just didn't sell three-pin socket adapters

Then you shouldn't have gone to the butchers, should you?

It's the blanket blaming of women for male behaviour despite any supporting evidence that bothers me, and would bother most fairly reasonable people who aren't trying to excuse others.

gcgirl · 27-08-2013 11:58AM

Candie wrote: »

I love how the wives get blamed, even though there's no evidence that suggests they're in any way culpable.

It's almost funny how often adult men are excused and either the mothers or wives are blamed for their behaviour. Even worse when a woman is doing it though, makes it harder to kick into touch.

My granny told my mum that sex was dirty, when my mum got her period she taught she was dying, she got zero sex ed off her mum, when my nan reached a certain age she moved out of my grandfathers bedroom and moved into her daughters bedroom,I know for a fact there are plenty of women like that, loveless and sexless marriages/ relationships, I hold the view that a lot of people in this country have problems with sex,its been passed down from generation to generation, thank fully my mum taught me sex was amazing with the right person

MaxWig · 27-08-2013 12:00PM

Candie wrote: »

Then you shouldn't have gone to the butchers, should you?

It's the blanket blaming of women for male behaviour despite any supporting evidence that bothers me, and would bother most fairly reasonable people who aren't trying to excuse others.

I'd agree.

The no-sex thing is a strange one though.

I don't know enough about the female menopause (which I understand is NOT what was discussed above), but I imagine some women lose all interest in sex during this period, and for some, this continues after.

It must place incredible strain on relationships. I always wonder how couples cope in these instances.

And I do wonder how relationships handle scenarios where one or the other partner loses interest in sex.

There's no easy answer.

gcgirl · 27-08-2013 12:02PM

MaxWig wrote: »

I'd agree.

The no-sex thing is a strange one though.

I don't know enough about the female menopause (which I understand is NOT what was discussed above), but I imagine some women lose all interest in sex during this period, and for some, this continues after.

It must place incredible strain on relationships. I always wonder how couples cope in these instances.

And I do wonder how relationships handle scenarios where one or the other partner loses interest in sex.

There's no easy answer.

My mum is 60 and she is getting more action than I at the moment obviously with my step dad of course

starling · 27-08-2013 12:14PM

gcgirl wrote: »

My granny told my mum that sex was dirty, when my mum got her period she taught she was dying, she got zero sex ed off her mum, when my nan reached a certain age she moved out of my grandfathers bedroom and moved into her daughters bedroom,I know for a fact there are plenty of women like that, loveless and sexless marriages/ relationships, I hold the view that a lot of people in this country have problems with sex,its been passed down from generation to generation, thank fully my mum taught me sex was amazing with the right person

What your granny told your mum is not really a basis on which to make assumptions about people you don't know. Maybe talk to the OP I think she knows the people involved. Cause as Candi pointed it out it's a bit weird to hear "these men went off on holidays and went to prostitutes" and just automatically excuse their behaviour by ascribing beliefs and feelings to their wives on no evidence at all and to decide that ultimately women must somehow be to blame for these grown men who cheated of their own free will.

B0jangles · 27-08-2013 12:36PM

I find it interesting that in a thread titled "Ladies your opinions in men using brothels and prostitutes" we have 40 posts (just over 12% of the current total) from you, MaxWig (a guy) - mostly rejecting other posters negative opinions of prostitution as driven by emotions and lacking in logic.

Personally I find that to be rude and overbearing.

MaxWig · 27-08-2013 12:38PM

I know the issue of open relationships have been touched upon already in the thread.

I think its worth pointing out again however that we cannot know the context within which sex is placed in any given relationship.

It never ceases to amaze me how couples I've known in the past have a) dealt with infidelity and moved on, and b) espoused incredibly lax attitudes (compared to my own) to sex outside the relationship.

I consider myself liberal, well-informed and pretty experienced sexually (I mean in terms of coming across various attitudes and scenarios rather than lots of partners), yet I'm often left feeling naive when I hear about swinging and the likes.

While I know 'swinging' is at the extreme end of the spectrum, sometimes I wonder if sexual activity in couples occupies such a spectrum consistently up to swinging.

i.e. am I naive to assume a healthy sexual relationship can be found in the majority of relationships of thirty/forty years or more

MaxWig · 27-08-2013 12:44PM

B0jangles wrote: »

I find it interesting that in a thread titled "Ladies your opinions in men using brothels and prostitutes" we have 40 posts (just over 12% of the current total) from you, MaxWig (a guy) - mostly rejecting other posters negative opinions of prostitution as driven by emotions and lacking in logic.

Personally I find that to be rude and overbearing.

Hi BOjangles - thanks for your feedback.

I'm not rejecting anyone's opinions. I am challenging them, or querying them, as is the tendency in a discussion.

I'm interested in the topic, and would never set out to be rude.

I am particularly interested in discussions on sex and sexuality/prostitution etc., and yes I do believe that many people's (including my own) opinions regarding these topics are driven by emotion and subjective reasoning.

I had an interaction with Starling that was heated I guess. However I was called an imbecile, told that I was passive-aggressive etc.. so I don't feel that I can be labelled over-bearing.

I do appreciate your feed-back all the same

B0jangles · 27-08-2013 12:50PM

MaxWig wrote: »

Hi BOjangles - thanks for your feedback.

I'm not rejecting anyone's opinions. I am challenging them, or querying them, as is the tendency in a discussion.

I'm interested in the topic, and would never set out to be rude.

I am particularly interested in discussions on sex and sexuality/prostitution etc., and yes I do believe that many people's (including my own) opinions regarding these topics are driven by emotion and subjective reasoning.

I had an interaction with Starling that was heated I guess. However I was called an imbecile, told that I was passive-aggressive etc.. so I don't feel that I can be labelled over-bearing.

I do appreciate your feed-back all the same

The thread was specifically titled to draw out women's views on brothels and prostitution - even so I don't think anyone would seriously object to men popping in to give their opinions.

Your posts alone make up over 12% of the thread. That's not contributing in my book; that's taking over.

MaxWig · 27-08-2013 01:11PM

B0jangles wrote: »

The thread was specifically titled to draw out women's views on brothels and prostitution - even so I don't think anyone would seriously object to men popping in to give their opinions.

Your posts alone make up over 12% of the thread. That's not contributing in my book; that's taking over.

Again, I can but thank you for your feedback.

It is very much appreciated.

I take your point, but in the midst of a discussion I do not count of my posts.

Certainly I did not mean to take over.

I would add that I would post again if I believed I had something to say.

If it is not appreciated, I apologise

gcgirl · 27-08-2013 01:15PM

starling wrote: »

What your granny told your mum is not really a basis on which to make assumptions about people you don't know. Maybe talk to the OP I think she knows the people involved. Cause as Candi pointed it out it's a bit weird to hear "these men went off on holidays and went to prostitutes" and just automatically excuse their behaviour by ascribing beliefs and feelings to their wives on no evidence at all and to decide that ultimately women must somehow be to blame for these grown men who cheated of their own free will.

They are not by any means immune to blame, I know several friends who had simlier experiences to myself, the church's teaching towards sex has a big part in this

Ladies your opinions on men using brothels and prostitutes

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