Ethical Clothes Buying What Do You Think?

shankespony · 18-08-2013 01:41PM #1

Does it really matter where your clothes are made to you? If its cheap is that all that matters to most people including myself, i don't think of the sweatshops etc in some Asian countries that produce the majority of clothes we wear but as shown recently have appalling safety procedures.
I have a friend who is starting his own clothing range which is being produced in the west as he says its a bit more expensive to produce buy not much more and the quality is better. As its more ethical he reckons people will buy it if the price is keen and the quality is good, is he correct or way off the mark?

lkionm · 18-08-2013 01:47PM

Tell your mate to take his market research elsewhere.

The west of Ireland only make big wooly Arann jumpers anyway make from the hair on the balls of dr bollocko.

They stun him first so it's fairly ethical

Artful_Badger · 18-08-2013 01:51PM

I think a lot of people are looking for more ethical options these days. The reason most dont care is because they never even thought about it. But if made aware of it and given the option I reckon they will go for it if they can afford it.

anncoates · 18-08-2013 01:54PM

If a few kids got to sweat so I can have a nice pair of trainers, so be it.

Wearing earnest burlap shirts and Hessian weave skull caps isn't really my thing.

The Backwards Man · 18-08-2013 01:58PM

How's this for backwards thinking?;

Which is more ethical, giving working conditions in third world countries a chance to improve, no matter how gradually, or just saying fcuk them?

NuckingFacker · 18-08-2013 02:04PM

Artful_Badger wrote: »

I think a lot of people are looking for more ethical cheap options these days. The reason is most dont care. is because they never even thought about it. But if made aware of it and given the option I reckon they will go for it if they can afford it.

Or somthing like that. I wonder does the OP know the dear stuff is made the same way, but they charge more for it?

shankespony · 18-08-2013 02:10PM

NuckingFacker, as far as i know all clothes are made in the Far East as i'd have thought far too expensive with western wages etc to produce here. My friend says that all the big brands get it made in Far East so have large profits for advertising to make their brand popular. My opinion is that if there wasn't a big difference in price the ethical route would be the one i would choose, but have never really thought about it.

Artful_Badger · 18-08-2013 02:11PM

NuckingFacker wrote: »

Or somthing like that. I wonder does the OP know the dear stuff is made the same way, but they charge more for it?

Just because a lot of people want cheap stuff doesnt mean there isnt a market for a more ethical option. Look at the food industry, people want cheap food too and the likes of Lidl, Aldi and tesco are very popular. But there is also a growing market for vegan/vegetarian foods. If people can afford to be picky and factor in ethics they will. And its the same for clothing.

lkionm · 18-08-2013 02:15PM

NuckingFacker wrote: »

Or somthing like that. I wonder does the OP know the dear stuff is made the same way, but they charge more for it?

Fact of the day.

Avonmore and golden vale are the same milk but packaged differently.

They let the avonmore bottle listen to classical music and tell it is the best boy. They let it sleep on the couch unlike the other milks.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo · 18-08-2013 02:19PM

shankespony wrote: »

Does it really matter where your clothes are made to you? If its cheap is that all that matters to most people including myself, i don't think of the sweatshops etc in some Asian countries that produce the majority of clothes we wear but as shown recently have appalling safety procedures.
I have a friend who is starting his own clothing range which is being produced in the west as he says its a bit more expensive to produce buy not much more and the quality is better. As its more ethical he reckons people will buy it if the price is keen and the quality is good, is he correct or way off the mark?

I've a friend who is originally from Bangladesh and he says he goes out of his way to buy products/clothes that are manufactured in his home country. Sadly, they'll be eating mud without those sweatshops. Ethical smethical, they need the jobs and money, it's fucked up but that's just the way it is. Do you think they don't want to work there? What's their alternative?

He was gutted over that incident that killed hundreds a few months ago.

lkionm · 18-08-2013 02:20PM

Artful_Badger wrote: »

Just because a lot of people want cheap stuff doesnt mean there isnt a market for a more ethical option. Look at the food industry, people want cheap food too and the likes of Lidl, Aldi and tesco are very popular. But there is also a growing market for vegan/vegetarian foods. If people can afford to be picky and factor in ethics they will. And its the same for clothing.

People looking for ethical foods and going vegan/vegetarian can mostly be self righteous Gowls. They will be the ones to give out to for eating something cheap.

Leave them pay out their ars.e because that's what they mostly do when they talk about vegan choices.

Bunch of Gowls those lads. I'll organic you in the face next time you say how my macdonalds quarter pounder isn't even real meat.

shankespony · 18-08-2013 02:20PM

Ikionm, i suppose the question being, if it was Irish jobs and it was a few quid extra (presuming that Irish employers are ethical in their treatment of staff) and the quality of clothing was better than what your currently buying would the ethical angle sway you or would it be the price only?

wexie · 18-08-2013 02:21PM

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

I've a friend who is originally from Bangladesh and he says he goes out of his way to buy products/clothes that are manufactured in his home country. Sadly, they'll be eating mud without those sweatshops. Ethical smethical, they need the jobs and money, it's fucked up but that's just the way it is. Do you think they don't want to work there? What's their alternative?

He was gutted over that incident that killed hundreds a few months ago.

this, while the conditions in the sweatshops are pretty poor the sad fact is that people are lining up to get a job in them as the alternatives are so much worse.

lkionm · 18-08-2013 02:23PM

shankespony wrote: »

Ikionm, i suppose the question being, if it was Irish jobs and it was a few quid extra (presuming that Irish employers are ethical in their treatment of staff) and the quality of clothing was better than what your currently buying would the ethical angle sway you or would it be the price only?

I get my hair cut once a year and go shopping twice a year. Penny's in January and again in summer to buy their superhero t shirts.

I'm a simple man who is happy with curry noodles and a warm can of fosters for dinner.

bnt · 18-08-2013 02:24PM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

How's this for backwards thinking?;

Which is more ethical, giving working conditions in third world countries a chance to improve, no matter how gradually, or just saying fcuk them?

That's the problem, I suppose. Bangladesh is massively over-populated, with huge resource problems, and far more people than there are jobs. The poor working conditions are not imposed on them by the West, they are a reflection of their socio-economic status in the world. Keeping prices low is the only way they attract any inward investment at all, as described in other posts above.

So, would I be happy to pay say 20% more for a pair of trousers from Penney's, if that money went towards improving conditions in their sweatshops? I know I would, but I also know that wouldn't actually happen: the extra money would go in to some middleman's pocket, so I'd be paying more for the same product produced under the same conditions. Anyone who tries to blame the consumer for buying cheap products probably doesn't understand basic microeconomics.

shankespony · 18-08-2013 02:30PM

bnt, i agree, it was shocking what happened in Bangladesh but its the companies that threaten the factories it the price isn't low they will go to wherever is cheapest and so they are keeping the conditions & prices low. So you are correct, my friend has a good understanding of this and has come across a company who can produce it in the West and provide higher quality at a little more cost and he wants to go down this road. I am not sure whether the ethical / better quality will be enough to sway the Irish/Western audience!!!

lkionm · 18-08-2013 02:33PM

bnt wrote: »

That's the problem, I suppose. Bangladesh is massively over-populated, with huge resource problems, and far more people than there are jobs. The poor working conditions are not imposed on them by the West, they are a reflection of their socio-economic status in the world. Keeping prices low is the only way they attract any inward investment at all, as described in other posts above.

So, would I be happy to pay say 20% more for a pair of trousers from Penney's, if that money went towards improving conditions in their sweatshops? I know I would, but I also know that wouldn't actually happen: the extra money would go in to some middleman's pocket, so I'd be paying more for the same product produced under the same conditions. Anyone who tries to blame the consumer for buying cheap products probably doesn't understand basic microeconomics.

Well there would be a market for ethical goods if there wasn't so many hippies going on about them.

They would be luxury goods. Kinda like someone buying a merc instead of a fiesta. Since nearly everyone can afford it they won't be a luxury or exclusive good so they can't justify the extra cost since there is no symbol of class to be associated with it apart from being a gowl.

Economics needs low paid workers to work properly especially micro.

Artful_Badger · 18-08-2013 02:37PM

bnt wrote: »

Anyone who tries to blame the consumer for buying cheap products probably doesn't understand basic microeconomics.

Same as anyone who writes off consumer demand for more ethical products then no ? If consumers demand it then producers will respond to meet demand. If ethical production became the next big thing and consumers demanded it by taking their business to those marketing themselves as ethical (already see it with fair trade etc) no current company would let themselves and the factories producing for them go bust to avoid changing to meet demand.

NuckingFacker · 18-08-2013 02:41PM

Anyone see that yoke about the Chinese firms moving into Siberia to farm the land? The locals were giving out that there was no way they would work for the chinese as they were only paying €1 a day wages which to them was nuts. Other side of the equation was the queues of poor chinese labourers fighting to get those jobs which represented a doubling of what they were earning at home... It's a big old world out there. Our idea of "sweatshops with meagre wages" might be someone elses dream chance to make a better life. We have very rosy blinkers on here in the prosperous west. we're spoilt I tells ya, spoilt.

lkionm · 18-08-2013 03:18PM

NuckingFacker wrote: »

Anyone see that yoke about the Chinese firms moving into Siberia to farm the land? The locals were giving out that there was no way they would work for the chinese as they were only paying €1 a day wages which to them was nuts. Other side of the equation was the queues of poor chinese labourers fighting to get those jobs which represented a doubling of what they were earning at home... It's a big old world out there. Our idea of "sweatshops with meagre wages" might be someone elses dream chance to make a better life. We have very rosy blinkers on here in the prosperous west. we're spoilt I tells ya, spoilt.

Most people here would think products cost the same here as over there. It could be argued its all relative just like if inflation went crazy here your wages would be worth less and worth more if there was deflation.

Those lads over there were far from raised from club sandwiches and lattes with flowers on them.

bnt · 18-08-2013 11:02PM

Artful_Badger wrote: »

Same as anyone who writes off consumer demand for more ethical products then no ? If consumers demand it then producers will respond to meet demand. If ethical production became the next big thing and consumers demanded it by taking their business to those marketing themselves as ethical (already see it with fair trade etc) no current company would let themselves and the factories producing for them go bust to avoid changing to meet demand.

Was that aimed at me? I'm certainly not writing off consumer demand, but is the demand actually there, and if so, at what level of markup? It's funny how someone's "ethics" can evaporate once they see the price tag. ("Fairtrade" coffee is now so common that it doesn't cost much more, but have you ever bought "fairtrade" chocolate at double the price of regular chocolate?)

But that's a separate issue from what I was talking about. Making clothes is not like growing coffee or chocolate. It takes years to get a farm producing an agricultural product to sell, with futures contracts locking down the price long before harvest. A Dhaka sweatshop can start up in a matter of weeks, to meet export demand for cheap clothes. I simply don't trust that any "ethical markup" would actually find its way to those workers.

Artful_Badger · 18-08-2013 11:34PM

bnt wrote: »

Was that aimed at me? I'm certainly not writing off consumer demand, but is the demand actually there, and if so, at what level of markup? It's funny how someone's "ethics" can evaporate once they see the price tag. ("Fairtrade" coffee is now so common that it doesn't cost much more, but have you ever bought "fairtrade" chocolate at double the price of regular chocolate?)

But that's a separate issue from what I was talking about. Making clothes is not like growing coffee or chocolate. It takes years to get a farm producing an agricultural product to sell, with futures contracts locking down the price long before harvest. A Dhaka sweatshop can start up in a matter of weeks, to meet export demand for cheap clothes. I simply don't trust that any "ethical markup" would actually find its way to those workers.

Wasnt aimed at you just in general. Your point that you cant blame consumers for buying cheap products was valid but so too is the point that you cant dismiss the fact that an impact can be made if consumers are given the choice to opt for a more ethical product. It has to be affordable I know, options are reduced along with your budget but the reason fair trade coffee and tea are so common is that consumers reacted very positively to the companies that marketed themselves as fair trade. I dont buy much chocolate tbh but its available which means there is a market for it however small. I never said it was a fool proof way to change the world over night.

I also never mentioned an ethical markup, I wouldnt trust that either. I'm just saying there is nothing wrong with giving people a choice and if ethics becomes a part of why consumers buy a certain product as opposed to another one then the mass/cheap producers may change to reflect that and conditions might improve. I know you didnt make the point but a lot of people who thanked your post seemed to think there was something wrong with wanting to buy products where people were sure there was no problem in regards to the ethics of how it was made. If you cant blame the consumer for buying cheap stuff how can you blame them for not buying it ?

token101 · 19-08-2013 12:03AM

lkionm wrote: »

Fact of the day.

Avonmore and golden vale are the same milk but packaged differently.

They let the avonmore bottle listen to classical music and tell it is the best boy. They let it sleep on the couch unlike the other milks.

Fact of the day.

A Terrys Chocolate Orange in Asda (£1) is almost a third of the price of a Terrys Chocolate Orange in Sainsburys (£2.50).

But does Panorama respond to my emails? Do they ****.

ScumLord · 19-08-2013 12:30AM

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

Ethical smethical, they need the jobs and money, it's fucked up but that's just the way it is. Do you think they don't want to work there? What's their alternative?

I don't know how the corporations convinced the masses that them taking advantage of the less advantaged was good for everybody.

The only power people have these days is as consumers and the only way to enforce that power is to spend your money wisely and in some ways morally. Buying clothes, or just about anything produced in the west means enforcing quality and workers rights. We don't allow the abuse of workers and there are minimum standards on products. The consumer has a comeback against the manufacturer, they can get recourse for poor products which keeps European manufacturers in line.

We could be setting the standard for emerging economies but all we're teaching them is to take advantage of the weak and get away with whatever you can. They could still compete with Europe on price even if they built their products with the same level of workers rights and quality, so this argument that they need us taking advantage of them so they can eventually fight their way up the ladder to our level is just bul****.

Wacker The Attacker · 19-08-2013 12:49AM

The Backwards Man wrote: »

How's this for backwards thinking?;

Which is more ethical, giving working conditions in third world countries a chance to improve, no matter how gradually, or just saying fcuk them?

There you go

pauliebdub · 19-08-2013 01:10AM

shankespony wrote: »

Does it really matter where your clothes are made to you? If its cheap is that all that matters to most people including myself, i don't think of the sweatshops etc in some Asian countries that produce the majority of clothes we wear but as shown recently have appalling safety procedures.
I have a friend who is starting his own clothing range which is being produced in the west as he says its a bit more expensive to produce buy not much more and the quality is better. As its more ethical he reckons people will buy it if the price is keen and the quality is good, is he correct or way off the mark?

I'm not going to spend a lot of money on clothes if it fits and I like it I'm fine with that. It's Penneys and H&M all the way as im not really interested in fashion anyway, I'm not all that bothered with ethics, being honest.

Czarcasm · 19-08-2013 01:27AM

pauliebdub wrote: »

I'm not going to spend a lot of money on clothes if it fits and I like it I'm fine with that. It's Penneys and H&M all the way as im not really interested in fashion anyway, I'm not all that bothered with ethics, being honest.

And the above OP will be the general concensus for most consumers. Generally speaking, consumers aren't as interested in ethics as they are in value for money.

Producing anything of quality doesn't happen cheaply, or the business might take off for a while before the novelty factor wears off, especially in the clothing and fashion industry, and then the business has to either evolve or dissolve.

If your friend is interested in producing quality clothing, it's going to cost them a lot of money, materials don't just fall off the back of a lorry and quality control standards, employees wages, health and safety regulations, does your friend actually realise the extent of what they're getting into? I'd have a qualified business consultant look at that market research and have your friend do a proper feasibility study before he puts a scissors anywhere near cloth first tbh.

Cheap quality clothing produced in the west of ireland? Sounds like Louis Copeland gave Ming the pattern for THAT SUIT.

shankespony · 19-08-2013 08:18AM

Czarcasm, thanks for your summary, its been a mixed thread so far and people are confused as to what route to go down. My friend has a factory in the Western Hemisphere (sorry not west of Ireland) he has been to the factory and knows the employees are being paid more than the minimum wage and are well looked after. He knows that the product will be a bit more expensive but is prepared to pay that because of the ethics involved and the quality will be far higher than in "a sweatshop" somewhere in the Far East. While i admire his ethics the big question is will a good quality product produced ethically at slightly more than you usually pay attract you buy???

Czarcasm · 19-08-2013 09:31AM

shankespony wrote: »

Czarcasm, thanks for your summary, its been a mixed thread so far and people are confused as to what route to go down. My friend has a factory in the Western Hemisphere (sorry not west of Ireland) he has been to the factory and knows the employees are being paid more than the minimum wage and are well looked after. He knows that the product will be a bit more expensive but is prepared to pay that because of the ethics involved and the quality will be far higher than in "a sweatshop" somewhere in the Far East. While i admire his ethics the big question is will a good quality product produced ethically at slightly more than you usually pay attract you buy???

People who buy clothing based on their ethics aren't usually big spenders OP. I've been kitting myself out in Penneys tearaway clothing ever since I was old enough to buy my own clothes, and it's surprisingly non-tearaway tbh! I have shirts I've gotten years wears out of, what I'm wearing right now (shirt, tie and trousers) cost me less than €20. The other end of the market is brand buyers, the type that'll kit themselves out in label gear, produced in a factory just down the road from where Penneys source their clothing, they slap a name on it and that gives them the ability to make an almost obscene mark-up on the price. Same quality clothing - it's the brand name marketing that makes it more desirable for that person to be seen in by other people.

When you talk ethics in the middle of a recession, you're going to have to aim for a very, very niche market, one that there's no REAL profit in tbh, and without profits, you won't have enough to sustain the business.

Ethical Clothes Buying What Do You Think?

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