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I've Joined a Cult

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    #302
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    Well here's the most amusing thing I have learned in all my reading. I guarantee it will be impossible not to bring up this story next time you're in the pub.
    Enter Dr. John Harvey Kellogg. Kellogg was the superintendent of Battle Creek Sanitarium, and a staunch Adventist, who imposed a strict vegetarian diet upon his patients, disallowing the consumption of alcohol, tobacco and caffeine as well. But, unlike the Adventists, and most modern vegetarians, he didn't enforce the diet for purely health or moral reasons. Kellogg was a firm believer in sexual abstinence and subscribed to the idea that sweet or spicy foods increased passion. He was a particularly zealous opponent of masturbation, citing many medical sources in his campaigns against it. "Neither plague, nor war, nor small-pox," he said, referencing the remarks of Dr. Adam Clarke, "...have produced results so disastrous to humanity as the pernicious habit of onanism." He would later poignantly remind his listeners of the harsh reality of self pleasure-related deaths. "Such a victim," he passionately avowed, "dies literally by his own hand."

    Toasted Corn FlakesThis is where Corn Flakes come in. Amongst the various measures that Kellogg resorted to in order to curb passions he relied most heavily upon the vegetarian diet, and feeding his patients a new flaked cereal he and his brother, Will Keith Kellogg, had accidentally created after toasting some stale cooked wheat. Kellogg believed that this product, that they called "Corn Flakes" acted as an anaphrodisiac, greatly decreasing the sex drives of those who consumed it.
    http://dishmag.com/issue125/lifestyle/13932/the-fascinating-history-of-everyday-objects-kellogg-s-corn-flakes/

    If only Michael Hutchence had had his cornflakes.


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    #303
    MediaMan
    Registered Users Posts: 454 ✭✭MediaMan


    AstraMonti wrote: »
    It's borderline funny how much divided is the scientific community.

    You can say that again. Even from what little I've read there are wildly varying claims and counter claims and some very personal attacks on the credibility and morality of the "other side". Makes it very difficult for the average Joe (or Jo) to figure out what to believe and what to do.

    Here's what I am taking away so far:

    There seems to be broad agreement on these:
    - Simple carbs (sugar, refined grains etc.) - very bad
    - Some plant oils (e.g. corn oil) - bad
    - Green and brightly coloured veg - good
    - Most fruit - good in moderation
    - Oily fish - good in moderation

    Very divided on these:
    - Animal meat and fats
    - "Middle of the road" plant oils - e.g. olive oil
    - Nuts and legumes
    - Supplements (e.g. fish oil)

    For me, what I will definitely plan to change is to reduce as much as possible my intake of simple sugars and carbs, and also cut down on veg oil. Not sure I'm ready to take up the sat fats yet, but I guess I will have to or will not have enough calories in the diet. Will continue to focus on wholefoods as much as possible.

    Now, anyone want to buy some surplus-to-requirements gels...? :D


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    #304
    AstraMonti
    Registered Users Posts: 5,718 ✭✭✭AstraMonti


    The only thing i am certain is that pure virgin olive oil is amazing (uncooked, fried it has too many trans fats), do not cut that down.


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    #305
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,481 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    AstraMonti wrote: »
    The only thing i am certain is that pure virgin olive oil is amazing (uncooked, fried it has too many trans fats), do not cut that down.

    Beautiful in a salad, never for cooking.


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    #306
    MediaMan
    Registered Users Posts: 454 ✭✭MediaMan


    CramCycle wrote: »
    Beautiful in a salad, never for cooking.

    So what to use for cooking then? Can grill a lot of things but sometimes a bit of frying is necessary.


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    #307
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    MediaMan wrote: »
    So what to use for cooking then? Can grill a lot of things but sometimes a bit of frying is necessary.

    Coconut oil & Ghee butter.

    I'm gonna get some Ghee this weekend. Wish me luck.


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    #308
    Soarer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,864 ✭✭✭Soarer


    I love a bit of Ghee at the weekend.


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    #309
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,481 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    MediaMan wrote: »
    So what to use for cooking then? Can grill a lot of things but sometimes a bit of frying is necessary.

    Depends what your frying, alot of things require no oil at all, the likes of sausages, rashers etc. provide their own oil/juice. After that, I use a small drop of vegetable oil or butter, coconut oil could be interesting, will try sometime in the future.


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    #310
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,013 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    From 2011...

    Why Low-Carb Diets are Terrible for Athletes, Anthony Colpo
    Part 1.
    Part 2.


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    #311
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    A war is brewing among the sports scientists!

    From a quick skim, he seems to be criticising low carb advocates for their claims of an increase in metabolism. I have read nothing where they describe anything to do with speed of metabolism. In fact if anything they say worrying about metabolism is a red herring. It's all about the effect on insulin.

    He also seems to subscribe to doing a huge training loads for fitness and performance. And I agree that you couldn't do huge volumes without carbs. But whether huge aerobic training loads are necessary (at an amateur level anyway) is probably gonna be another battle ground.


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    #312
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    An isolated example of possible over training.....

    Elish McColgon

    Trained by her mum (Liz MColgon). Like her mum she is racked with injuries. She couldn't do the mileage she wanted to in the lead up the world championships.... and then runs a PB and finishes 10th in the world.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwIVnip0_Eg
    Eilish McColgan finished tenth in her first-ever major championship final.

    Despite a shin injury disrupting her training in the build-up to Moscow, the 22-year-old British champion got within two seconds of the Scottish 3000m steeplechase record she set earlier in the week and afterwards said she remained determined to break into world-class times in the event.

    With close on world record pace set in the opening laps, McColgan was quickly detached from a leading group of half a dozen African women and eventually needed her kick to pick up three places in the home straight to finish 10th in 8:37.33, the gold going to Milcah Cheywa of Kenya in 9:11.65.

    Afterwards, the 23-year-old Hawkhill Harrier said she was “disappointed” with her placing, but realistic about her overall performance at the championships.

    “If someone had said a couple of weeks ago that I would have made that final and finished tenth in the world I would never have believed them,” she said.

    “But after running it, I’m a bit 
disappointed. Now that I’ve come tenth, I wish I had come eighth. I wish I’d got further up the field.

    “I felt really good in my heat and felt strong, but today I went through good and bad patches and just couldn’t push on. But I really can’t complain. I knew I was going to be tired after the lack of actual running I’ve done. And considering I’ve just done two steeplechases in the space of three days, it’s more than I can ask for.”
    http://www.thecourier.co.uk/sport/other-sports/world-athletics-championships-eilish-mccolgan-still-positive-after-world-final-tenth-1.120296

    She'll probably wonder what she could have done with more training. I wonder what should could have done with less training.


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    #313
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,013 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Pete, from I read (bits of part 2) the main points were that whilst fat burning improves on a low carb diet, glycogen storage gets hammered and that large negative affect isn't compensated by the positive fat burning.

    I guess you can get away with non-optimal glycogen capacity in very short or low average effort bike races, (e.g. club racing and maybe A4) in the same way that you can get away with it in half marathon running, but for longer, harder races you're surely going to get screwed.

    He also mentioned that sprint performance goes down the toilet, but you've got load of that to spare, right?


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    #314
    AstraMonti
    Registered Users Posts: 5,718 ✭✭✭AstraMonti


    Just a bit off topic to show you my lunch. 1kg of lamb chops with a big piece of feta cheese. Yummy.


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    #315
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    Lumen wrote: »
    I guess you can get away with non-optimal glycogen capacity in very short or low average effort bike races, (e.g. club racing and maybe A4) .
    well you should be arriving at a race with your glycogen stores full. Noone disputes that. But you can't cram an unlimited amount in there. Your body can hold about 270g (200 in the muscles and 70 in your liver). And it can engineer it's own glycogen through gluconegenisis. If you tail off your training leading up to a race you shouldn't be arriving glycogen depleted. Even if you are in Ketosis your body will engineer glycogen for the muscles. You don't arrive empty under any diet. Or so I believe. I may be wrong. What I've noticed and so has a proper athlete (Ryan) that recovery time is vastly reduced eating in this way. As he said its an anabolic diet. Training is catabolic. you need to balance the two to get fit.

    Even us amateur sport scientists on boards had concluded that any high intensity activity over certain time length is gonna require carbohydrate in competition and maybe straight after for recovery (but I'm 50/50 on this part). So none of us are totally blind to the benefit of carbs.

    What I wonder is do we need to cram ourselves full of carbs to fulfill unrealistic training schedules that are unhealthy and unnecessary in the longterm? Are some of us engaged in huge training loads to lose weight by "burning calories" and fueling these crazy schedules with the very substance that is making us fat? Constantly in a catabolic state in an effort to maintain this calorie deficit and not getting any faster or fitter.


    Lumen wrote: »
    He also mentioned that sprint performance goes down the toilet, but you've got load of that to spare, right?
    I can't tell. Hamstring is precluding me from joining in on the sprints. In the few races I've done recently I've been able to get around no bother, easier than before on much much less training. but by the end the hamstring is starting to cramp and I can't sprint. I am getting a physio to dig his elbows into it this weekend (unfortunately). I think I have some scar tissue that needs work on.


    As an aside. I've read that fast twitch fibres hold more glycogen. Is this true?


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    #316
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    This thread is gonna have legs.:pac:

    I'm gonna start a fight about base mileage and heart rate training in September.


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    #317
    Ole Rodrigo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,013 ✭✭✭Ole Rodrigo


    petethedrummer wrote: »

    What I wonder is do we need to cram ourselves full of carbs to fulfill unrealistic training schedules that are unhealthy and unnecessary in the longterm? Are some of us engaged in huge training loads to lose weight by "burning calories" and fueling these crazy schedules with the very substance that is making us fat? Constantly in a catabolic state in an effort to maintain this calorie deficit and not getting any faster or fitter.

    I think there's a lot of truth here.


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    #318
    Soarer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,864 ✭✭✭Soarer


    If ye have an hour to spare, this fella is definitely worth a watch.



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    #319
    ryan_sherlock
    Registered Users Posts: 885 ✭✭✭ryan_sherlock


    I eat carbs, not too many, not too little. Timing is everything. Intense training sessions I go into with carbs, recovery rides usually on empty. Once every 7-10 days a long ride to teach my body who is the fatty boss.

    Yesterday I did this on empty: http://app.strava.com/activities/74878733 (5hrs at 245W avg) - I had some Zipvit chews spaced out over the last 2 hrs to fuel the brain not the legs.

    When I got home, I had a large serving of rice, eggs, fish - fruit afterwards. Lots of carbs, mostly high GI. In the evening, back to steak, salad, and some berries/greek yogurt for dessert.


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    #320
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    Here's Noakes talking to Bruckner on this very subject. In his opinion everyone has their own sweet spot.

    https://soundcloud.com/bmjpodcasts/high-fat-for-health


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    #321
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    My Dinner
    That's a Rib-eye under the egg.
    267618.JPG

    Berries, Greek yoghurt, a square of dark chocolate and a little drizzle of honey.
    267619.JPG

    Washed down with red wine.

    Someone please end this misery.


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    #322
    ryan_sherlock
    Registered Users Posts: 885 ✭✭✭ryan_sherlock


    petethedrummer wrote: »
    Someone please end this misery.

    Very very similar to me... Oh, how I miss heaps and heaps of bread.. :)


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    #323
    AstraMonti
    Registered Users Posts: 5,718 ✭✭✭AstraMonti


    I had two massive octopus legs, anchovies and calamari all grilled for dinner. Some leafy salad, feta cheese and olives completed the meal. for breakie I had two eggs with bacon slices fried in animal butter. I really enjoy this way of eating.


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    #324
    duffyshuffle
    Registered Users Posts: 767 ✭✭✭duffyshuffle


    petethedrummer wrote: »
    This thread is gonna have legs.:pac:

    I'm gonna start a fight about base mileage and heart rate training in September.

    Do you lift weights? That's defo the next on this thread!

    Fasted training isn't that hard once you build it in, I've built up to 3 hours on coffee and a scoop of cream and feel fine doing it and ready to extend it out


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    #325
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    duffyshuffle wrote: »
    Do you lift weights?

    Yeah, I've started going once a week to the gym. I'm off the bike till I resolve my hamstring issue.


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    #326
    thebouldwhacker
    Registered Users Posts: 3,565 ✭✭✭thebouldwhacker


    So over the last two days I have read through the thread, clicked on the links, watched the youtube vids and read the linked publications.

    My first observation is that this thread is perfectly titled and those reading it seeking genuine nutritional direction should keep that in mind.

    I find this thread heavy on psyco science (first have the thought and then find evidence to back it up)
    Many of sites linked (like the underground wellness site) seem to be replicating well known tips to a healthy lifestyle with cool graphics and a shop... to buy the expensive books...

    They are very light on peer reviewed research instead rest on the 'reputation' of authors or on flashy graphics and the age old smooth marketing tool of taking a well established point and redressing it as a 'revolutionary' concept.

    For example Dr. Cate Shanahan is referenced in the thread as a solid pillar of the science behind this 'cult' and her credintials were defended on this thread as ' not a quack.' (Personally if a scientist must be defended as not being a quack i check to see if they walk like a duck)

    the simplest research on the good doctor shows that;


    She [Dr. Cate Shanahan] is a supporter of eating to support and improve your genes. This lifestyle can be seen through Common External Signs of Genetic Wealth (Men and Women) such as
    • Strong joints
    • Fertility
    • No grey hair by age 50
    • Strong nails
    • Limbs proportioned according to the Golden Ratio
    • Long nose, high cheekbones, full lips, and strong jaw
    The notion of using such antiquated tools finished to have any credence in the nineteenth century along with craniology which proved the Irish (esp those from the west of Ireland) to be physically and intellectually inferior to our English neighbours and concluded that we are a different 'race'.

    This cult also has a negative focus on sugar, carbs etc. This is shown anecdotally by many posters here 'I gave up sugar, cut my carbs and lost weight'. that is because sugar and carbs are high in energy, cut back on them and your putting less energy into your body, thus less for your body to use or store.
    This is pretty basic nutrition information.
    Following this is an uneasy use of the word 'calorie'. Calorie is simply a measurement like Meter, Celsius or minute.
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Fat:[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] 1 gram = 9 calories[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Protein:[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1 gram = 4 calories[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Carbohydrates:[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1 gram = 4 calories[/FONT]
    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Alcohol:[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1 gram = 7 calories [/FONT]
    The reason some who support high protein diets shy away from using calorie is because it throws light on the fact that using protein to fill your tummy keeps you fuller for longer while consuming less calories (also soup takes longer to digest in your stomach than solid food and also keeps you feeling fuller for longer... quick to the soup diet thread!!!).
    This short simple fact doesn't really help sales of complex diet and nutritional books now does it.
    Instead well established facts are taken in isolation, dressed up and added to (keeping the core inarguable point as the base defence to be wheeled out if its validity is being questioned). For example the fad of the 'paleo' diet which again sees one simple point ie 'eat a varied balanced diet of whole food' being twisted into a diet revolution which is continually being added to by more psyco science such as don't eat beans (yes I'm being flippant)

    The reason I am posting all this isn't to belittle the beliefs of the op (whom I congratulate for going to the effort of bettering himself) or the followers of the cult.
    I am posting because I want to let other people who are reading this thread who are seeking nutritional direction to be aware that a lot of the ideas behind such diets is common sense.
    Anecdotal evidence on this thread to date seems to be 'I used eat a lot of carbs and sugar, I cut back/ stopped, I look/feel better now', that's not surprising, any diet (including the cult) which focuses on one type of food while excluding another is not a balanced diet, eventually changing it will lead to change.
    If you drink too much beer, cut down.
    If you are eating chocolate bars or such snacks as food, stop because its not.
    If you need to lose weight you are probably consuming to many carbs, much of this is probably sourced as refined sugar.

    That said I am confused why this tread is in the cycling forum. the diet is in no way designed for people who cycle, its not a training log. I feel it belongs in the Health & Fittness forum where threads such as this are a dime a dozen and are competing for space with other exclusionary diets.

    That's just my 2c


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    #327
    Ole Rodrigo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,013 ✭✭✭Ole Rodrigo


    I think the subtext with the thread is sugar, how easy it is to rely on it to fuel your cycling, how counter productive it can be with metabolism, weight and general well being etc.

    Of course theres nothing wrong with sugar or any other food. If there was it wouldn't be legal. I do think that there should be stricter warnings with some foods though. Not quite as stringent as those with tobacco ..but heading in that direction. Maybe we'll see that in the future. Or at least full breakdown of calories and macro nutrients for meals in restaurants - fast food anyway.

    In spite of everything I've read and researched, both here and through my own efforts, the best piece of wisdom I've come across was Michael Pollans opening line in ' In Defense of Food' which was; ' Eat food, not too much, mostly plants, ' . When he says food he means natural food that is as close to its original state as possible. Its a remarkably simple idea that no matter what heavy nutritional bible, groundbreaking new study or new way of looking at old data you might consider, still holds true. He also makes the point that the one thing humans have done successfully though out the generations - besides mating - is finding something to eat. Why the fuss all of a sudden ?

    Anyhoo..where did I leave that bit of cake :pac:


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    #328
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,013 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    @thebouldwhacker the reason it's good to have this thread here is because a low-carb diet is idiotic for someone doing endurance sports, according to received wisdom. So it's interesting when a cyclist does it, particularly a cyclist who has actually won a race (in some style, IIRC) and therefore knows what fast feels like.


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    #329
    ROK ON
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,831 ✭✭✭ROK ON


    @ Wacker

    This is a fascinating thread and part of the reason is that when it comes to nutrition there is so so much assertion out there. Received wisdom as Lumen points to.
    One of the reasons that I like this thread is that it is focused on eating reasonably well and not starving oneself (crash dieting).
    It is also focused in eating real food. My fatal flaw is a serious addiction to chocolate and confectionery. I dint really drink so when I am not eating sweets I actually eat pretty well. Lots of fish, nice meat, plenty of veg, fruit, nuts and cheese.
    I don't use a microwave and don't eat pre prepared meals. I am fat because I eat too much sugar crap - it's that simple. My parents and my brother dont (didn't) eat this crap and they are thin. So for me it is nie to follow some of the links and videos and winder am I actually addicted to sugar. If so how can I deal with that and get over it.

    The other reason I find it interesting is the concept of carbo loading and the energy nutrition industry. For many of us here we donsportives and/or race at a low level (A3, A4, club). Can any of these really be described as endurance events? Is a rave that lasts between 1 & 2 hours and endurance event?
    Is a six hour sportif where one is pedaling briskly but not taxing the body an actual endurance event?
    I would love to know what is the minimum definition of endurance event. I have done a few long cycles this year and was not in any way fatigued by them whereas I have done a few crits and TTs where I could barely walk the following day (both sub 1 hour).

    I accept your point that many in the nutrition industry exist to make a living out of it.


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    #330
    thebouldwhacker
    Registered Users Posts: 3,565 ✭✭✭thebouldwhacker


    I agree such threads are interesting but I fail to see the difference between this 'cult' and those found here
    They often deal with such methods of eating and sports performance, surly in that environment claims and questions could be better addressed by other like minded people with similar or opposing views.

    Protein focused diets are not new and I do not believe that they challenge perceived wisdom. I grew up on a farm where food/ fuel was needed to work hard for 12 hours a day. The majority of the food that came from my mother's kitchen was protein focused with little or no sugars and she even insisted on eating between meals. That's eating for endurance, nothing to do with conventional wisdom.
    My father used tell stories of local cyclists in the 40's rocking into the local butcher and eating thin slices of raw beef before belting off again (carpaccio anyone).
    Popular beliefs based on marketing and advertising is hardly reason adopt them as gospel, the fable of the King having no clothes on comes to mind.

    Maybe its just me but sorry but I fail to see anything new here. One shouldn't get involved in a fad diet when all they need to do is stop eating edible material instead of food. The term BSO (bike shaped object, something that looks like a bike but isn't really) is used a lot in this forum, well we live in a world full of FSO (food shaped objects) these should be treated with the same disdain, all I'm saying is that you don't need to joint a cult to do this.


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    #331
    niceonetom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,833 ✭✭✭niceonetom


    So this thread is full of advice that is simultaneously nonsense fringe quackology AND basic common sense that even our mothers have always known?


    That seems like having your cake and eating it too - something we are against both figuratively and literally.


This discussion has been closed.
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