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Homebirth controversy

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Comments

  • #182
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,131 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Why does refusing pain relief make her a legend?

    If you went to the dentist to get a root canal would you refuse pain relief?

    I hate when people say stuff like this! It insinuates that women who dont want or need pain relief are trying to be martyrs.

    A root canal is a medical procedure and needing to have one is a sign there is something wrong. Giving birth, while painful, is a perfectly normal process.

    Refusing pain relief is just another choice a woman has a right to make. The same as choosing to have it if she so wishes


  • #183
    Lisha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,713 ✭✭✭Lisha


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Are there any statistics on the numbers of women who, being told a VBAC was possible and encouraged to have one, chose a C section anyway?
    Purely anecdotal but of the mothers I know who had one C section, none went for a VBAC even though there was nothing medically indicated preventing it.


    My first was emergency section as he went into distress and I was not really dilating. Private patient.

    My second I insisted on trying labour. Again my waters went but no real labour pains. Hospital staff felt I should have section, I refused, s time limit was put on iit. 24hrs later labour started with a vengeance and I felt baby was coming out. Mad rush to labour ward, too late for section and it took episiotomy and horrific pain to get my healthy daughter out. No pain relief.
    I was a public patient.

    Now in hindsight I think hospital would have been right to section me. IMHO I put my child at risk. I felt a failure after first section which was why I insisted on vbac.

    All this natural process talk puts women under horrific pressure to have the perfect labour. This 'too posh to push' bs makes women feel like failures .

    We have improved infant mortality rates due to medical advances. These should be celebrated not rediculed.

    Also I was happier over all by public system all through my pregnancy.
    Tbh I've no idea what advantage being a private patient buys you in CUMH, .
    It is an excellent hospital.


  • #184
    Tasden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    I dont understand the whole "refusing pain relief" debate people have, no woman really "refuses" it, its there if they want it and if they don't need it they don't ask for it- its not as if the doctors force it upon you and all the martyrs reject it profusely.
    I just find that going through a twenty hour labour without any is some feat, its not like I respect the woman any more for it I just think fair ****s that she didn't need it cause I know I did


  • #185
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Tasden wrote: »
    I dont understand the whole "refusing pain relief" debate people have, no woman really "refuses" it, its there if they want it and if they don't need it they don't ask for it- its not as if the doctors force it upon you and all the martyrs reject it profusely.
    I just find that going through a twenty hour labour without any is some feat, its not like I respect the woman any more for it I just think fair ****s that she didn't need it cause I know I did

    You may have different pain tolerances, its neither heroic or weak. You might feel,it more than someone else does, she may feel it less.


  • #186
    Tasden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    You may have different pain tolerances, its neither heroic or weak. You might feel,it more than someone else does, she may feel it less.

    Fair enough but I still think after twenty hours no matter how high your pain threshold its impressive not to want pain relief- nothing to do with heroics


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  • #187
    LostinKildare
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 994 ✭✭✭LostinKildare


    Lisha wrote: »
    My second I insisted on trying labour. Again my waters went but no real labour pains. Hospital staff felt I should have section, I refused, s time limit was put on iit. 24hrs later labour started with a vengeance and I felt baby was coming out. Mad rush to labour ward, too late for section and it took episiotomy and horrific pain to get my healthy daughter out. No pain relief.
    I was a public patient.

    Now in hindsight I think hospital would have been right to section me. IMHO I put my child at risk. I felt a failure after first section which was why I insisted on vbac.

    I don't understand -- why do you feel you put your daughter at risk? She was born healthy, without need of a caesarean. How was she put at risk by the vaginal birth you had (painful and dramatic as it was for you)?


  • #188
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Tasden wrote: »
    Fair enough but I still think after twenty hours no matter how high your pain threshold its impressive not to want pain relief- nothing to do with heroics

    Pain is probably good in that it keeps you awake. I had an epi 15 hours in. After that I fell fell asleep.


  • #189
    Lisha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,713 ✭✭✭Lisha


    LostinKildare wrote: »
    I don't understand -- why do you feel you put your daughter at risk? She was born healthy, without need of a caesarean, which would have been riskier for her than the vaginal birth you had (painful as it was for you, and episiotomy notwithstanding).

    They told me she was stuck and I was panicking. I went from having mild pains to being hit by a bus, I could not breathe, it was too late for section. All I remember is panic (horror) and being told that I had to get her out. It might have been fast but it was like being ripped apart.
    I just did not handle it very well. No joke I had panic attacks and flashbacks for a good while after.

    A few months later on Ireland am there was a family on who had a child that had cerebral palsy as a result of poorly managed labour. Child got stuck and do suffered oxygen deprivation, .

    Midwife apologized to me after for shouting at me but she was afraid child would get stuck in canal.

    I spoke to my gp after and he said some people just dilate funny. To me it was like I dilated really slowly and then all of a sudden was dilated and baby rushed out.

    Sorry if that is more confusing but it's just my view on it.

    IMHO it is only possible to say what sort if labour will happen after the fact .


  • #190
    jmayo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,226 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    lazygal wrote: »
    Yes, frequently. I've had people assume I chose a section to keep everything down below the way it should be too. I went private both times and it was assumed that I chose private care in order to make sure I could have another c section this time.

    I know a few women who do indeed refer to women with elective C Sections as being too posh to push.
    I think it is akin to the whole mindset about breast feeding versus not.
    Ciarabear wrote: »
    Your one experience is hardly indicative of the big picture. The only options that private care buys you is whether to have cornflakes or weetabix for breakfast.

    That is bulls**.

    Being a private patient should at least ensure you are not left on a bed in the corridor with a new born baby and then shoe horned into an already overcrowded ward.

    Oh and I have the pics to prove it if you doubt it.

    Anyway I am out of this discussion.
    I shall leave all those mothers, and daddies if they so chose, to reminisce about their experiences.

    I am not allowed discuss …



  • #191
    clairefontaine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Lisha wrote: »
    They told me she was stuck and I was panicking. I went from having mild pains to being hit by a bus, I could not breathe, it was too late for section. All I remember is panic (horror) and being told that I had to get her out. It might have been fast but it was like being ripped apart.
    I just did not handle it very well. No joke I had panic attacks and flashbacks for a good while after.

    A few months later on Ireland am there was a family on who had a child that had cerebral palsy as a result of poorly managed labour. Child got stuck and do suffered oxygen deprivation, .

    Midwife apologized to me after for shouting at me but she was afraid child would get stuck in canal.

    I spoke to my gp after and he said some people just dilate funny. To me it was like I dilated really slowly and then all of a sudden was dilated and baby rushed out.

    Sorry if that is more confusing but it's just my view on it.

    IMHO it is only possible to say what sort if labour will happen after the fact .

    Similar thing happened to me. I was told about the risk of CP. Another woman I know was not told about the risk, refused the section, and low and behold....

    How could they fail to mention that risk?


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  • #192
    Tasden
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    jmayo wrote: »



    That is bulls**.

    Being a private patient should at least ensure you are not left on a bed in the corridor with a new born baby and then shoe horned into an already overcrowded ward.

    Oh and I have the pics to prove it if you doubt it.

    Anyway I am out of this discussion.
    I shall leave all those mothers, and daddies if they so chose, to reminisce about their experiences.

    That happened to me in semi private. And I never even got breakfast, never mind a choice of cereal!


  • #193
    Gatling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Actually when our 2nd child was born we were looking to go private when we asked what's the main difference between private and public reply came as oh your get bigger plates at dinner and salad ,

    Actually my partner and me have 2 kids and we've 19 niece's and nephews between us and I've never seen any woman on a trolley in a corridor in a maternity unit or ward ,I've seen beds been moved out while a ward was been cleaned due to a lady suffering heavy bleeding ,
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




  • #194
    Ciarabear
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 116 ✭✭Ciarabear


    jmayo wrote: »
    That is bulls**. Being a private patient should at least ensure you are not left on a bed in the corridor with a new born baby and then shoe horned into an already overcrowded ward.

    As I said, there are always exceptions but what people need to realise is that there are very few countries in the world who offer the same level of care that we get here in Ireland, entirely free of charge. Very, very few.

    The system is far from perfect but most doctors and nurses provide excellent healthcare that we don't pay a penny for and that shouldn't be taken for granted


  • #195
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    clairefontaine wrote: »
    You may have different pain tolerances, its neither heroic or weak. You might feel,it more than someone else does, she may feel it less.


    Quite a few of the maternity hospitals are known for deliberately "delaying" relief until it's "too late to give it anyway" - scary. I agree, personal choice. My friends ex tried to tell nurses not to give her pain relief because he wanted her to feel the real wonder and pain of natural child birth. I tell ya if I'd been there I would have taken that forceps to his testicles and showed him natural pain. Ahem...sorry. If I have a child I want the whole thing to be completely natural...but that's easy to say when you're not in labour! It's every woman's personal choice and nobody should interfere or try to belittle others - it's tough enough without making it harder for our female peers!


  • #196
    December2012
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,695 ✭✭✭December2012


    lazygal wrote: »
    Yes, frequently. I've had people assume I chose a section to keep everything down below the way it should be too. I went private both times and it was assumed that I chose private care in order to make sure I could have another c section this time.

    Me too.


  • #197
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 596 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Lisha wrote: »
    They told me she was stuck and I was panicking. I went from having mild pains to being hit by a bus, I could not breathe, it was too late for section. All I remember is panic (horror) and being told that I had to get her out. It might have been fast but it was like being ripped apart.
    I just did not handle it very well. No joke I had panic attacks and flashbacks for a good while after.

    A few months later on Ireland am there was a family on who had a child that had cerebral palsy as a result of poorly managed labour. Child got stuck and do suffered oxygen deprivation, .

    Midwife apologized to me after for shouting at me but she was afraid child would get stuck in canal.

    I spoke to my gp after and he said some people just dilate funny. To me it was like I dilated really slowly and then all of a sudden was dilated and baby rushed out.

    Sorry if that is more confusing but it's just my view on it.

    IMHO it is only possible to say what sort if labour will happen after the fact .

    I'm sure it was a shocking experience, fast labours can be. I still don't understand why a section would have been safer though?

    lazygal wrote: »
    There's also other factors as to why women don't try a VBAC, such as not being allowed to go much over your due date, not being induced and failure to go into spontaneous labour.

    The women I know who all opted for elective sections instead of VBACS had them at 39 weeks so there was no option to go overdue or bypass induction.


  • #198
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 596 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Gatling wrote: »
    Actually when our 2nd child was born we were looking to go private when we asked what's the main difference between private and public reply came as oh your get bigger plates at dinner and salad ,

    Actually my partner and me have 2 kids and we've 19 niece's and nephews between us and I've never seen any woman on a trolley in a corridor in a maternity unit or ward ,I've seen beds been moved out while a ward was been cleaned due to a lady suffering heavy bleeding ,


    A woman gave birth in a public ward in one of the Dublin maternity hospitals last month. My sister in law was in the ward at the time.
    Hate to say it but there is a difference between public and private care that extends way beyond dinner plates. It's not right but it's true.


  • #199
    periodictable
    Closed Accounts Posts: 931 ✭✭✭periodictable


    She can have it for free in hospital. If she want's it at home she can pay for it.


  • #200
    anto3473
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 160 ✭✭anto3473


    JuliusCaesar wrote: »
    :rolleyes: Here

    I've looked into it and I stand corrected, The more recent literature on pubmed seems to support your argument in the linked article.

    The rate at which episiotomies are carried out has decreased in recent years due to similar evidence. Mea Culpa. I jumped to a conclusion based on what I thought was common sense but I was wrong this time.

    What I heard was hearsay, I don't know the details of the case where this was said so I do not know if the midwife was right or wrong and I should not have dismissed their opinion out of hand in an area i don't know much about.

    I have however heard doctors, nurses, midwives and other healthcare staff (including myself) say plenty of other stupid things. After all we're all only human.

    This is why I think a team of people with specialised expertise is good- we call each other out on stuff when we hear something wrong.

    You caught me out JuliusCaesar, and I learned something new.

    Thanks, As a scientist I actually appreciate being called out on something when I'm wrong. It doesent happen too often

    :)


  • #201
    Rosy Posy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭Rosy Posy


    Stone Deaf 4evr wrote: »
    In my wifes case, the labour was really long, and at the end there was a chance that she would require a ceasarian section. what happens in the case of a homebirth? not being smart - I genuinely would like to know.

    I planned homebirths with all my children but transferred to hospital with the first two. In both cases the babies were stargazing (OP or face up presentation) and so the labour was prolonged. In both cases the midwife made the call that I would need chemical augmentation (be given drugs to increase the intensity of the labour in order to progress) which could only be done in a hospital, she drove me to hospital (20mins away) in her own car and I was admitted from there. She continued to care for me in the hospital with the doctors poking their heads in every now and then.

    However, this was not in Ireland. Here in NZ all pre and post natal care is midwife led- so normal practice is for you to have all your check ups with the midwife, she will go in to hospital with you if that's your choice and deliver your baby. The doctors are only there if something out of the ordinary is happening and the call is mostly made by the midwife. So all midwives have a relationship with the hospital staff and are used to working in the environment. I'm not sure how it works in Ireland.

    One thing I've learned from this thread is that, if what Lost in Kildare says is correct...
    LostinKildare wrote: »
    I had my baby in a hospital in NYC. It was a very very difficult labour -- he was posterior (face up) -- but we got there. When I told the story to a midwife friend here in Ireland, she said that in an Irish hospital I would have been given a caesarean as a matter of course as soon as they saw the baby's position (even though the baby was not in any distress).
    ...if I had delivered in Ireland there is a high chance I would have had an unnecessary section which would have prevented me delivering my third (and hopefully fourth) babies at home.


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  • #202
    omahaid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭omahaid


    She lost

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0816/468530-woman-loses-home-birth-case-in-high-court/


  • #203
    Uriel.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,059 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    omahaid wrote: »
    She lost

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0816/468530-woman-loses-home-birth-case-in-high-court/

    The judgment comes as absolutely no surprise.

    The HSE (and us as Taxpayers) should not be forced into providing insurance for elective practices that experts believe carry a risk, particularly in an environment where the HSE have no control over the management of the situation.


  • #204
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,723 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #205
    Gatling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    On to the Supreme Court. This will not be the end.

    She's 31 weeks now doubt she will make it before the sprog pops
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




  • #206
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,723 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #207
    OldNotWIse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,468 ✭✭✭✭OldNotWIse


    Gatling wrote: »
    She's 31 weeks now doubt she will make it before the sprog pops

    They can speed it up. They did that with the Flemming case.


  • #208
    omahaid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭omahaid


    You'd imagine the threat of costs would put someone off pursuing the matter. How much would it cost to appeal to the supreme court if you only had to pay your own costs even?


  • #209
    drkpower
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,474 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Uriel. wrote: »
    The judgment comes as absolutely no surprise.

    The HSE (and us as Taxpayers) should not be forced into providing insurance for elective practices that experts believe carry a risk, particularly in an environment where the HSE have no control over the management of the situation.
    The State provides insurance for elective practices that experts believe carry a risk every day. The State also insures homebirths every day.

    This issue was about the balancing of risk and whether it is reasonable for the State to refuse insurance for homebirths (thus effectively banning homebirths in these cases) using the risk criteria they used. The court found that the criteria used were reasonable, most particularly that the risk posed by uterine rupture in a woman with a previous C-section was sufficient to effectively prohibit homebirth regardles of the mother's otherwise very low risk profile.

    The case was on quite narrow grounds.


  • #210
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,723 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #211
    Uriel.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,059 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    drkpower wrote: »
    The State provides insurance for elective practices that experts believe carry a risk every day. The State also insures homebirths every day.

    .

    Not outside of a controlled environment. Homebirths... yes. Indemnification for elective practices... yes. Homebirth + elective procedure + identified risk = no insurance from HSE - rightly so in my view.


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