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These so-called liberals

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  • 16-08-2013 1:14am
    #1
    Lyaiera
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭


    This phrase always annoys me, "these so-called liberals." It doesn't have to be "so-called liberals," it can be used with any group. On the face of it it's calling out hypocrisy, but it never really is. It's used as a way to dismiss people's beliefs. It's always seems to imply that the group it's being aimed at is so ludicrous that it can't be really representative. A short hand for "You don't really believe that!"

    I don't have as big a problem with hypocrisy as others do. I know that people want to act one way but they're not so perfect as to always act that way. I understand that people face difficulties that makes them live a way they'd prefer not to. If someone believes in something I won't tell them they don't believe in it. I will certainly tell them their belief is stupid, bigoted, irrational, damaging, inconsequential, irrelevant, etc. But I won't tell them they don't have that belief. And "these so-called liberals" always seems to do that. If haven't said it but I can imagine saying, "these so-called christians" implying they say they're Christians but they're not really. They might talk the talk but they don't walk the walk, as if what you do counts for everything but what you say is irrelevant.

    I think people need to separate belief and action. You are entitled to believe religion is an evil on the world, you are not entitled to oppress a religious person for their belief.

    And to go back to the original point, we have nothing to go on here on boards but what people say (where I would see a direct line from their belief.) You need to trust that what someone says they do rather than doubt they even hold their beliefs in the first place. Unless they say they stole a penguin from Dublin Zoo/Fota/etc.


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    #2
    BOHtox
    Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭BOHtox


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qHiqcb8sCY


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    #3
    johnr1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭johnr1


    Lyaiera wrote: »
    This phrase always annoys me, "these so-called liberals." It doesn't have to be "so-called liberals," it can be used with any group. On the face of it it's calling out hypocrisy, but it never really is. It's used as a way to dismiss people's beliefs. It's always seems to imply that the group it's being aimed at is so ludicrous that it can't be really representative. A short hand for "You don't really believe that!"

    I don't have as big a problem with hypocrisy as others do. I know that people want to act one way but they're not so perfect as to always act that way. I understand that people face difficulties that makes them live a way they'd prefer not to. If someone believes in something I won't tell them they don't believe in it. I will certainly tell them their belief is stupid, bigoted, irrational, damaging, inconsequential, irrelevant, etc. But I won't tell them they don't have that belief. And "these so-called liberals" always seems to do that. If haven't said it but I can imagine saying, "these so-called christians" implying they say they're Christians but they're not really. They might talk the talk but they don't walk the walk, as if what you do counts for everything but what you say is irrelevant.

    I think people need to separate belief and action. You are entitled to believe religion is an evil on the world, you are not entitled to oppress a religious person for their belief.

    And to go back to the original point, we have nothing to go on here on boards but what people say (where I would see a direct line from their belief.) You need to trust that what someone says they do rather than doubt they even hold their beliefs in the first place. Unless they say they stole a penguin from Dublin Zoo/Fota/etc.

    Ah c'mon outta that - you're trolling here arent ya???






    Otherwise you need to lay off the weed till tomorrow ;-)

    .


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    #4
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    'I will certainly tell them their belief is stupid, bigoted, irrational, damaging, inconsequential irrelevant etc'.


    You automatically assume that you're right and they're wrong. Liberal internet media, inform yourself on all grounds, beware of pop liberal media outlets who target certain age groups.


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    #5
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Lyaiera wrote: »

    I think people need to separate belief and action. You are entitled to believe religion is an evil on the world, you are not entitled to oppress a religious person for their belief.

    If that relgious belief includes putting women to death for the crime of being raped, damn straight those people should be oppressed.


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    #6
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Lyaiera wrote: »
    If someone believes in something I won't tell them they don't believe in it.

    I don't believe you.


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    #7
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    krudler wrote: »
    If that relgious belief includes putting women to death for the crime of being raped, damn straight those people should be oppressed.

    Beliefs exist only in the mind.

    Putting people to death is behaviour.

    You can't oppress people for beliefs - only actions that might be an expression of those beliefs.


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    #8
    Jester252
    Registered Users Posts: 5,533 ✭✭✭Jester252


    krudler wrote: »
    If that relgious belief includes putting women to death for the crime of being raped, damn straight those people should be oppressed.

    So you what to stop oppression of women by a certain group of people in a religion by oppressing everyone in that religion. Might as well solve the problem of a man punching women by cutting the arms off every man.


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    #9
    shopaholic01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,916 ✭✭✭shopaholic01


    Are I going mad or was this thread closed down earlier?


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    #10
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Jester252 wrote: »
    So you what to stop oppression of women by a certain group of people in a religion by oppressing everyone in that religion.

    That's not oppression. If it were oppression then that would be a little like saying 'Your not allowing me to beat my Wife is oppressing me'.

    Which would be a bit mad.


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    #11
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,249 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Oh please please please please please please please can't the word 'liberal' in this context be kicked back over the Atlantic where it belongs? It was happy there. It's an invasive species, and has played havoc over here with the standard of discussion.

    'Liberal' is the grey squirrel of political discourse.

    :mad:


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    #12
    Lyaiera
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭Lyaiera


    shopaholic01 wrote: »
    Are I going mad or was this thread closed down earlier?

    That was this one. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057016256

    The op got me thinking about the separation of belief and action and how that applies to online environments.

    Also I felt a bit bad that people didn't read my sarcasm in the thread. So I also wanted to deal with how expression of belief isn't the same as holding a belief. Expressing a belief has a consequence, much like how people read my sarcasm as genuine means my words had an effect. Getting back to the "so-called-liberals" and how they/we speak for tolerance but don't tolerate others "beliefs" it seems that many people don't realise that saying what your belief is can be damaging, and that's what is not tolerable.
    Cathal Cloch wrote: »
    Beliefs exist only in the mind.

    Putting people to death is behaviour.

    You can't oppress people for beliefs - only actions that might be an expression of those beliefs.


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    #13
    1ZRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,293 ✭✭✭1ZRed


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    'I will certainly tell them their belief is stupid, bigoted, irrational, damaging, inconsequential irrelevant etc'.


    You automatically assume that you're right and they're wrong.

    No, no no. She's left and they're right


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    #14
    Bullchomper
    Registered Users Posts: 365 ✭✭Bullchomper


    Ehem...
    *Hides penguin in the wardrobe....*
    I'm not sure if I would agree that the saying "these so-called liberals" is intended to dismiss the beliefs of Liberals or Christians, etc. I think it is used as a means of calling people on hypocrisy. Then again, I've only ever heard it being used in a context whereby someone who is Christian/Liberal/Pastafarian does not act in accordance with their religion/political stance. Like if a liberal party rallied to ban the word F***.

    On a side note, hypocrisy is hilarious, it's the one thing EVERYONE is guilty of. It practically puts the H in human and yet, from what I have experienced, it causes uncontrollable, palpable rage in people when they it in others, or are accused of it, which just adds to it really.


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    #15
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,249 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    1ZRed wrote: »
    No, no no. She's left and they're right
    :D



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    #16
    Jester252
    Registered Users Posts: 5,533 ✭✭✭Jester252


    Cathal Cloch wrote: »
    That's not oppression. If it were oppression then that would be a little like saying 'Your not allowing me to beat my Wife is oppressing me'.

    Which would be a bit mad.

    No what would be a bit mad is oppressing people because they have the same religion as scum who treat women like property.


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    #17
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Jester252 wrote: »
    No what would be a bit mad is oppressing people because they have the same religion as scum who treat women like property.

    That would be oppressing people on personal or societal prejudices about a group rather than people of the group's behaviour.

    Are there any examples you can think of where entire groups are oppressed because of the behaviour of some members?


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    #18
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,249 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Cathal Cloch wrote: »
    Are there any examples you can think of where entire groups are oppressed because of the behaviour of some members?
    Gingers.

    :mad:


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    #19
    Jester252
    Registered Users Posts: 5,533 ✭✭✭Jester252


    Cathal Cloch wrote: »
    That would be oppressing people on personal or societal prejudices about a group rather than people of the group's behaviour.

    Are there any examples you can think of where entire groups are oppressed because of the behaviour of some members?

    Well that what the poster called for
    If that relgious belief includes putting women to death for the crime of being raped, damn straight those people should be oppressed.


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    #20
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Jester252 wrote: »
    Well that what the poster called for

    And I pointed out that we cannot oppress people for beliefs. Beliefs are not immoral behaviour.

    If people's beliefs inform, or are used as a lame excuse, for shitty behaviour then we should try to oppress suppress the behaviour to protect people who might be victims of it - we can't do a thing about the beliefs.


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    #21
    Bullchomper
    Registered Users Posts: 365 ✭✭Bullchomper


    I think, historically, people who were oppressed were never oppressed due to their behaviour. It seems to me they were oppressed for political gain, or because someone wanted their country and, more often than not, their resources. I don't think those responsible for oppressing people of a certain race or religion gave a **** what they were up to. They could be running around decapitating each other but if nothing was to be gained from oppressing them, they'd be left to their own devices with an obligatory tut tut uttered in their direction.


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    #22
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Bullchomper wrote: »
    I think, historically, people who were oppressed were never oppressed due to their behaviour.

    Yep. Like the native people of South/North America or Australia. They were a damned nuisance to the colonists who wanted their land and resources.

    What a familiar tune, eh?


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    #23
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,249 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Cathal Cloch wrote: »
    Yep. Like the native people of South/North America or Australia. They were a damned nuisance to the colonists who wanted their land and resources.

    What a familiar tune, eh?
    Well, they didn't have a flag, did they?



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    #24
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,001 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    1ZRed wrote: »
    No, no no. She's left and they're right

    It particularly annoys me how people see liberalism as left wing - Economic liberalism is certainly not left wing

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #25
    Toby Take a Bow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Toby Take a Bow


    mango salsa wrote: »
    It particularly annoys me how people see liberalism as left wing - Economic liberalism is certainly not left wing

    Yeah, and some left-wingers wouldn't have been too happy with the social liberalism either.


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    #26
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,172 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    I thought this thread got locked...?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #27
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Lyaiera wrote: »
    These so-called liberals
    This phrase always annoys me, "these so-called liberals." It doesn't have to be "so-called liberals," it can be used with any group. On the face of it it's calling out hypocrisy, but it never really is. It's used as a way to dismiss people's beliefs. It's always seems to imply that the group it's being aimed at is so ludicrous that it can't be really representative. A short hand for "You don't really believe that!"

    I don't have as big a problem with hypocrisy as others do. I know that people want to act one way but they're not so perfect as to always act that way. I understand that people face difficulties that makes them live a way they'd prefer not to. If someone believes in something I won't tell them they don't believe in it. I will certainly tell them their belief is stupid, bigoted, irrational, damaging, inconsequential, irrelevant, etc. But I won't tell them they don't have that belief. And "these so-called liberals" always seems to do that. If haven't said it but I can imagine saying, "these so-called christians" implying they say they're Christians but they're not really. They might talk the talk but they don't walk the walk, as if what you do counts for everything but what you say is irrelevant.

    I think people need to separate belief and action. You are entitled to believe religion is an evil on the world, you are not entitled to oppress a religious person for their belief.

    And to go back to the original point, we have nothing to go on here on boards but what people say (where I would see a direct line from their belief.) You need to trust that what someone says they do rather than doubt they even hold their beliefs in the first place. Unless they say they stole a penguin from Dublin Zoo/Fota/etc.

    Does this locked thread look familiar............
    What's the story with the so-called liberals on After Hours?
    They come out with their whole "live and let live" lines, yet when people have different opinions to them, "live and let live" goes out the window.

    It's fascinating reading comments from people complaining about issues, and then complaining about people who take to the streets to protest about those or other issues. The excuses are laughable, such as when they say they don't want to protest about an issue because some other people at the protest don't share their exact political beliefs. Apparently protesting achieves nothing anyway. History begs to differ.

    It's interesting too when conflicting views lead to violence and public disorder. If it's in a faraway place there's nothing all that wrong with it, fair play to the side fighting for the viewpoint they agree with. If it's closer to home violence and public order should be clamped down on by the state, liberalism goes out the window, and those who use violence should be condemned and discredited. Pity for them that the roots of liberalism go back to violent revolution.

    Many of these so-called liberals wet themselves over news items about the British royal family, yet liberals should fundamentally oppose monarchies and hereditary privilege.

    I particularly enjoy the "Legalise Cannabis" brigade who go on about how it's got so many uses apart from getting people high - it's good for medicinal purposes, and it's good for making rope. Why not call a spade a spade and say you want it legalised so you can use it legally to get stoned? The Legalise Cannabis crowd are a joke. I'll pay attention to one of these groups when they advocate the legalisation of Heroin too. You do realise that a lot of the problems associated with heroin stem from it being illegal? No, thought not.

    Some people like to describe themselves as liberals, but let's be honest, they're not. Live and let live, unless you have a different opinion to me and dare to stand up for it.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057016256

    Someone needs a liberal dose of originality.


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    #28
    Jester252
    Registered Users Posts: 5,533 ✭✭✭Jester252


    Cathal Cloch wrote: »
    And I pointed out that we cannot oppress people for beliefs. Beliefs are not immoral behaviour.

    If people's beliefs inform, or are used as a lame excuse, for shitty behaviour then we should try to oppress suppress the behaviour to protect people who might be victims of it - we can't do a thing about the beliefs.

    Hence why I called the poster out on his/her post.


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    #29
    Lyaiera
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭Lyaiera


    mikom wrote: »
    Does this locked thread look familiar............



    Someone needs a liberal dose of originality.

    Are you able to read? I clearly said that this thread is from thoughts that arose from that thread. I even linked to that thread. If you're not going to bother taking something seriously why bother at all?


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    #30
    justforlaugh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 182 ✭✭justforlaugh


    shopaholic01 wrote: »
    Are I going mad or was this thread closed down earlier?

    you're clearly spending too much time boards.ie :p


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    #31
    Christ the Redeemer
    Registered Users Posts: 463 ✭✭Christ the Redeemer


    The only time I use "so-called liberals" is when I'm referencing the likes of the Obama supporters who were up in arms about Bush's wars, but now their guy is in charge and blowing **** up with Drones and moving the war on "terror" to north Africa, they have nothing to say.

    "so-called conservatives" was applicable to the republicans who supported Bush whilst he initiated the largest expansion of the federal government in over a half century and then flip when Obama gets in about Big government.

    So called arseholes, more like. Please don't allow this to happen our nation.


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