Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread III

jm08 · 14-08-2013 6:42pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

Yes, as Clermont have a great history for bottling/playing poorly in the group/league phase of competitions while performing really well in knockout competition when the pressure is on. :rolleyes:

What planet do you live on?

They hadn't lost a home or away game in the HCup that season. Most people thought they had conquered their demons there.

IMO that Edinburgh team beating Toulouse at home is a close to/greater achievement than Munster losing to Clermont in a neutral French venue. Not really the point anyway, I was showing how a cup run does not necessarily equate to a team improving, it can paper over the cracks.

As a matter of interest, would you regard the Aviva as a neutral venue if Munster were playing a semi final there against a French team?

If you watched the game, you'd know it wasn't a neutral venue. 90% of the supporters are supporting Clermont - you can see how many Munster supporters there - they took up a small section.

Foxtrol · 14-08-2013 7:04pm

jm08 wrote: »

They hadn't lost a home or away game in the HCup that season. Most people thought they had conquered their demons there.

Given their performances against Munster and Toulon when the pressure was on, most people were proved wrong.

As a matter of interest, would you regard the Aviva as a neutral venue if Munster were playing a semi final there against a French team?

If you watched the game, you'd know it wasn't a neutral venue. 90% of the supporters are supporting Clermont - you can see how many Munster supporters there - they took up a small section.

I would say it’s a hell of a lot more neutral a venue than if Munster were playing in Thomond or Clermont in SMM. It’s not as if Edinburgh had a massive home advantage playing in a barely half full Murrayfield including a solid number traveling Toulouse fans, the atmosphere that day was better than their normal one but nowhere near the advantage gained in one of the European fortress venues (SMM/Thomond for example).

For the second time in as many posts you’ve refused to discuss the actual point of my post, that Edinburgh two seasons ago shows how a cup run does not necessarily equate to a team improving it can just paper over the cracks, and seeing as you’ll probably continue to refuse to discuss the main point, I see nothing to gain in continuing this with you.

Podge_irl · 14-08-2013 7:06pm

Munster put in all of two great performances in the latter half of the season and lost one of those games. I wouldn't be popping champagne corks.

jm08 · 14-08-2013 8:15pm

Foxtrol wrote: »

Given their performances against Munster and Toulon when the pressure was on, most people were proved wrong.

Yes they were proved wrong - but up to when they played Munster, everyone believed that they were unbeatable, especially having beaten Leinster in the Aviva.

I would say it’s a hell of a lot more neutral a venue than if Munster were playing in Thomond or Clermont in SMM.

You weren't at the semi in '06 then in Lansdowne Rd.

It’s not as if Edinburgh had a massive home advantage playing in a barely half full Murrayfield including a solid number traveling Toulouse fans, the atmosphere that day was better than their normal one but nowhere near the advantage gained in one of the European fortress venues (SMM/Thomond for example).

Its not relevant what the home support is like - French teams (including Toulouse), don't travel well. Clermont's supporters are about the only French supporters that travel out of France anyway. There were hardly any French supporters at Munster two HCup finals in Cardiff.

For the second time in as many posts you’ve refused to discuss the actual point of my post, that Edinburgh two seasons ago shows how a cup run does not necessarily equate to a team improving it can just paper over the cracks, and seeing as you’ll probably continue to refuse to discuss the main point, I see nothing to gain in continuing this with you.

Edinburgh beat London Irish at home by 1 pt - that was the difference for them. They then beat Racing at home by 1pt. They were well beaten by Cardiff away and won at home. Then they just about scraped by Racing in a game racing had nothing to play for. They got through beating London Irish away. I think Saracens were a lot more challenging than LI, Cardiff.

Micky Dolenz · 14-08-2013 10:08pm

I don't come Into this thread to justify my home team. They are my home team and need no justification in my eyes. We've had a few rocky years for sure but we have always maintained our status as a force to be reckoned with. Even in our worse times we have not fallen to far behind.

The future is bright for Munster rugby, the future is red.

jm08 · 14-08-2013 10:09pm

Peter O'Mahony on ''Off the Ball"

http://www.newstalk.ie/reader/47.305.363/12709/pages/

perma link iconhttp://www.newstalk.ie/Munster-captain-Peter-OMahony-talks-about-being-named-Munster-captain

mohawk · 14-08-2013 10:37pm

jm08 wrote: »

It was the week after a big HC win away from home (against Quins).

Doesn't matter when your playing your closest rivals you get yourself up for it.

Munster: F Jones; D Hurley, C Laulala, J Downey, S Zebo; I Keatley, C Murray; D Kilcoyne (J Cronin 78th min) , D Varley (Sherry 62nd min), S Archer (Botha 62nd min); Donncha O'Callaghan (Holland 54th min), P O'Connell capt; P O'Mahony, T O'Donnell , J Coughlan (O'Callaghan Dave 72nd min). Reps not used: C Sheridan, JJ Hanrahan, I Dineen.

Leinster: R Kearney; D Kearney, B O'Driscoll, G D'Arcy, I Nacewa; I Madigan, I Boss; C Healy, S Cronin, M Ross; L Cullen capt, Q Roux; S O'Brien, S Jennings, J Heaslip. Replacements: R Strauss, J McGrath, M Bent, D Toner, K McLaughlin, J Cooney, A Goodman, A Conway.

Let me guess I am supposed to believe that this is Munsters second string

Leinster had their first team and were after a home semi. It was also a priority for Leinster this year to win the Rapo Final, so in short Munster had nothing to lose because they were out of it anyway.

These guys are professional athletes, they play to win.

thomond2006 · 14-08-2013 10:52pm

We're fortunate that we got the pool we did. Napoleon said he preferred lucky generals to good ones! Swap Munster into Ulster's pool and our prospects would be very different.

The League showing last season was unacceptable and we need to improve this year. No losing at home to the likes of effing Cardiff.

Micky Dolenz · 14-08-2013 10:59pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

We're fortunate that we got the pool we did. Napoleon said he preferred lucky generals to good ones! Swap Munster into Ulster's pool and our prospects would be very different.

The League showing last season was unacceptable and we need to improve this year. No losing at home to the likes of effing Cardiff.

I have to say, you are by and large the most pessimistic fan I have ever come across. You constantly bet against us. I don't get it. Maybe I have an inbred blindness but I always have hope. Why don't you?

Rightwing · 14-08-2013 11:06pm

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I have to say, you are by and large the most pessimistic fan I have ever come across. You constantly bet against us. I don't get it. Maybe I have an inbred blindness but I always have hope. Why don't you?

And why wouldn't you. Most clubs would be delighted to have got to a H cup semi last season,,and come within an ace of winning it.

athtrasna · 14-08-2013 11:30pm

Why are the Munster jerseys not available to pre-order? Also am I the only one who thinks the new online store is brutal? The selection compared to Leinster was always crap anyway but the new store has an even smaller range...and a non user friendly front end.

thomond2006 · 14-08-2013 11:49pm

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I have to say, you are by and large the most pessimistic fan I have ever come across. You constantly bet against us. I don't get it. Maybe I have an inbred blindness but I always have hope. Why don't you?

I wouldn't be the most optimistic. Of course I have hope, maybe it doesn't come across here!

Podge_irl · 15-08-2013 12:07am

Its all relative. I wouldn't accuse a Treviso fan of being pessimistic if they doubted their team's chance of winning the HEC.

Obviously Munster are several leagues ahead of that, but Leinster made several quarters and semis before they were realistically in with a chance of either winning the HEC or truly being a top European power. Munster have been off their game European wise since '09 and there is nothing wrong with some doubt about their run last year, which was essentially on the back of two big performances, one of which they still lost.

molloyjh · 15-08-2013 12:28am

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

I have to say, you are by and large the most pessimistic fan I have ever come across. You constantly bet against us. I don't get it. Maybe I have an inbred blindness but I always have hope. Why don't you?

I'd call thomond grounded rather than pessimistic. Last years league performances were unacceptable. Even some of the HEC performances were poor. The Edinburgh game in Murrayfield springs to mind. Sure Munster came away with the TBP but that was based on the last, what, 10 mins of the game? The other 70 or so Munster were having a tough time breaking down a side that couldn't get themselves on the scoreboard they were so bad. The HEC knock-outs papered over huge cracks, there's no two ways about it. You can be optimistic about the coming season certainly, and I hope that optimistic view comes to pass (just not at Leinsters expense). But you need to have a balanced view of last season at the same time.

finatron · 15-08-2013 12:56am

Just read through the last few pages there ya Munster where crap in the league and the Quinns game was are only real highlight but the Claremont game and the leinster game showed there is the makings of a very good team there .
Just by pure chance I was re watching the leinster match this evening the backrow Murray and Keatly really play well Munster complete ran out of steam in the last 15mins but I think the young players now know what is required of them if they want to win.
Yes a poor sessions overall but a team had to be blooded I'm really looking forward to seen more from the younger players this session hopefully penny can get more blance with a game plan the suits the players better.
One think I notice was how poor some of the rucks were when in a good attacking areas leinster where able to compete or it was unclean ball for Murray and Keatly Munster just seemed a bit too honest pom may need to take on the quinny role :-)

jm08 · 15-08-2013 1:03am

Paul O'Connell's post match interview after the Quinns game put it in context. All he could speak of was how delighted he was because he knew how hard it was for Munster's young playes, their families etc to be continually compared unfavourably to the Quinnys, Axels etc. So to lift themself from some really shocking performances and get two in a row away from home was a big step up.

Lots of teams have found it difficult to get a win on the road (Ulster for instance do and they have a lot of very experienced players in their squad), so that win away to Quins was fairly significant. Munster were good at it, but what you have to remember is that this is a new Munster team with a new coaching staff. Penney has never coached outside of NZ up to now so this is all fairly new for him as well. I think some people have some unrealistic expectations from a young team that has a bit to go yet.

finatron · 15-08-2013 7:55am

jm08 wrote: »

I think some people have some unrealistic expectations from a young team that has a bit to go yet.

The feeling I get from most munster supporters is there happy to give penny time yes expectations are high past munsters teams have set a high standard.
My hope for this session is that the silly mistakes in the league are cut out and a few more young/ an not so young ( eg:Nagel ) guys break through.

Micky Dolenz · 15-08-2013 8:05am

thomond2006 wrote: »

I wouldn't be the most optimistic. Of course I have hope, maybe it doesn't come across here!

Just believe. If I told you this time last season that we'd get to a HC semi, you'd have said I was crazy, which incidentally is half true

.

Good things are coming our way.

15-08-2013 8:41am

"Just believe" is a marketing mantra.
This is a rugby forum, where people discuss rugby.
Blind belief and hope cannot be rationalised, can't realistically be discussed or explained.
Belief and hope based in logic and reasoning though; can be explained and discussed.

Example :

Logic and Reasoning

I believe Munster will finish strongly in the HEC this season. When you look at their group, and how good their chances of a home QF are, allied with their record at Thomond Park and the crowd factor, they will have a serious shout at a Semi. Even playing teams with better squads and in better form, Thomond Park has seen many of these teams fail to get a result here. I would not be at all surprised to see Munster pushing hard for a Semi Final spot, and if they get there, they are well able to push through to the final.

Guff

I believe Munster will win the Rabo because they are my team and I have a great feeling.

----

One of them can be discussed, the other is a touching thought.

jm08 · 15-08-2013 9:02am

Deleted User wrote: »

"Just believe" is a marketing mantra.
This is a rugby forum, where people discuss rugby.
Blind belief and hope cannot be rationalised, can't realistically be discussed or explained.
Belief and hope based in logic and reasoning though; can be explained and discussed.

Sport is different though. Before the Quins v Munster game, the rational thought was that Munster hadn't a hope particularly after some poor performances in the League and scraping through their group and this was in the Stoop.

It turned out different though.

Thats sport - anything can happen.

accensi0n · 15-08-2013 9:11am

jm08 wrote: »

Sport is different though. Before the Quins v Munster game, the rational thought was that Munster hadn't a hope particularly after some poor performances in the League and scraping through their group and this was in the Stoop.

It turned out different though.

Thats sport - anything can happen.

I don't think he's said anything to the contrary. His example also uses results over an extended period so not really a like for like comparison.

What's expected of a team over a season vs. an expected result in 1 game.

15-08-2013 9:11am

Sport is not different.

Munster were not judged as massively improbable to win that game. They were what, about 10/1 at the very, very, very, very widest. Which means that they were given ~ 10% chance of winning the game.

15-08-2013 9:13am

Saying "The rational thought" that a result is guaranteed makes it an irrational thought btw (just a nice paradox for you there).

Lelantos · 15-08-2013 9:26am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Sport is not different.

Munster were not massive underdogs to win that game. They were what, about 10/1 at the very, very, very, very widest. Which means that they were given ~ 10% chance of winning the game.

You wouldn't count a 1 in 10 chance as being a massive underdog?

jm08 · 15-08-2013 9:26am

Deleted User wrote: »

Sport is not different.

Munster were not massive underdogs to win that game. They were what, about 10/1 at the very, very, very, very widest. Which means that they were given ~ 10% chance of winning the game.

Munster were massive underdogs - listen to Paul O'Connell's after match interview. He talks about how delighted he was for his young team as everyone had written them off and it was hard on them and their families.

Sport is different though. Logic doesn't dictate who you support - emotions do. Logic would be to support Manchester United because they win a lot, emotion would be to support Celtic - they are never going to win the Champions League, yet they have a massive following.

15-08-2013 9:29am

Lelantos wrote: »

You wouldn't count a 1 in 10 chance as being a massive underdog?

Underdog the wrong word there as it was a 1v1 event, what I meant was that 1 in 10 chances happen all the time.

1 in 10 isn't massively unlikely whatsoever.

If I told you you had a 1 in 10 chance of getting in a car crash every time you drove to work, would you do it?

15-08-2013 9:31am

jm08 wrote: »

Munster were massive underdogs - listen to Paul O'Connell's after match interview. He talks about how delighted he was for his young team as everyone had written them off and it was hard on them and their families.

Sport is different though. Logic doesn't dictate who you support - emotions do. Logic would be to support Manchester United because they win a lot, emotion would be to support Celtic - they are never going to win the Champions League, yet they have a massive following.

Sport is not different

jm08 · 15-08-2013 9:32am

Deleted User wrote: »

Sport is not different

?

Lelantos · 15-08-2013 9:32am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Underdog the wrong word there as it was a 1v1 event, what I meant was that 1 in 10 chances happen all the time.

1 in 10 isn't massively unlikely whatsoever.

If I told you you had a 1 in 10 chance of getting in a car crash every time you drove to work, would you do it?

It's actually about 1 in 4 or 5 of being in a crash, I prefer your odds

.ak · 15-08-2013 9:34am

Lelantos wrote: »

It's actually about 1 in 4 or 5 of being in a crash, I prefer your odds

Is it? I drive to work 5 times every week, should I crash once a week?

Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread III

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