Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

noiniho · 13-08-2013 02:45PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Michael Ryan came in when Waterford were at the end of their cycle tbf. He didnt inherit a panel containing Ken Mcgrath, Paul Flynn, a young Tony Browne, Dan Shanahan, Seamus Prendergast, etc like Davy, Justin or Gerald McCarthy did all those years ago. Instead he inherited a very young panel in the midst of a rebuilding process so perhaps it unfair to suggest he took ye backwards. He needed a few years i feel to get ye back with a serious chance of contesting.

I felt they left it behind them against Kilkenny the night and had he won that game then Waterford would have been looking at things from a different perspective.

Possibly so, but if we won our first game against Clare, which we should have done, then we would have been on the other side of the draw of Kilkenny, Tipp, cork and Dublin, instead the only two decent teams we played against we lost.

We lost to Kilkenny, who were out for a few weekends in a row, they were without TJ Reid, Henry Shefflin, and Michael Fennelly, Jackie Tyrell and Paul Murphy were playing injured, fair credit to the Waterford players for scoring five unanswered points to draw level, but this tired Kilkenny team who were there for the taking, creamed us in extra time, and even though we got the break of a square ball goal, we still couldnt beat them.

Lets face it when you look at that game after the evidence of the Cork Kilkenny game two weeks later it took alot of the gloss off the performance and whilst immensely proud of the players the performance papered over the cracks.

Ryan has had more selectors then a Junior manager in crisis, if he was going to have to bring more men in then it was like they were speed dating or something.
The man did his best but enough is enough, it is an open secret (I got told this by a panel member last year) that alot of the players on the panel had no respect for him due to admittedly immature reasons of his accent etc but also his tactical nous, there was supposed to be more ghouling at training than you would see at club training.

Whatever the perception of Ryan he had fought too many fires over his tenure in replacing backroom staff, there was a credibility issue with the players. The easiest thing in the world for the county board to do was reappoint after the Kilkenny game (financial constraints etc) and the players acted on it now, better now then losing the first round of the munster championship next year, but I do agree that it was not done in a correct manner.

I would say fair credit to Michael Ryan, he has being up against it from day one and gave it his all, another man may have tried to hang on in there after the players meeting sunday (a la what has happened in Limerick and Cork) but he left for the good of Waterford hurling...

robopaddy · 13-08-2013 03:03PM

doz wrote: »

You may occasionally make a reasonable point or two but when asked for specifics you generally don't respond. I asked who you would have appointed in Ryan's place, no response and you were asked how you were able to dismiss one poster's suggestions about a list of potential replacements, also no response.

Is it really necessary to be acting all high, mighty and all knowing in responding to regular posters comments or suggestions? It's keyboard warrioring at its worst and frankly a bit pathetic. This is a discussion forum, no rights or wrongs, so just grow up a bit.

no point doz you wont win. he has shown before he is just not up to partaking in civilised discussions its a wee bit beyond him im afraid.

Unfortunately insecurity takes over and he will just end up arguing with everyone else about how he is so much smarter and intelligent than us all. The topic of conversation eventually becomes irrelevant

Ropaire · 13-08-2013 03:09PM

robopaddy wrote: »

no point doz you wont win. he has shown before he is just not up to partaking in civilised discussions its a wee bit beyond him im afraid.

Unfortunately insecurity takes over and he will just end up arguing with everyone else about how he is so much smarter and intelligent than us all. The topic of conversation eventually becomes irrelevant

Thats enough for me, lets make Sam Swarek or whatever he's called now the next manager. He'll take no crap in training and talk so much ****e the opposition will be so confused they won't have a clue what's going on. Foolproof.

seananigans · 13-08-2013 03:13PM

I'm not suggesting they rush appoint anyone, but the CB need to somewhat put this to bed to focus on the big one by the end of the week.

In fact I would prefer if the process didnt start until the final is done and dusted, and we have some silverware to show for this season :-)

Brad1234 · 13-08-2013 03:26PM

Ropaire wrote: »

Thats enough for me, lets make Sam Swarek or whatever he's called now the next manager. He'll take no crap in training and talk so much ****e the opposition will be so confused they won't have a clue what's going on. Foolproof.

This all starting to get very childish quick.. Sam albeit does it in a confrontational tone, makes some great points on waterford hurling and is talking like the majority of hurling folk in the county.. There is an acceptance from speaking to intercounty players, clubmates players from other clubs (bar far west) that ryan albeit an honourable man and did an adequate job but was out of his depth when it came down to the elite level..

Training only really picked up (after witnessing it myself) when Ger Cunningham came in and started to do some touch work.. but he came in mid way through the league which is a real scattergun approach the biggest team we have in waterford in any sport..

Derek McGrath is there for him if he wants it purely cause its easy and its on the county boards lap.. If we are going for an insider we'll id possibly take a chance with him but the financial constraints cant be that bad that we cant aim higher than that..

Keep the physical team with a proper manager who has more input that bawling and roaring and who doesnt delegate absolutely everything.. Hard to fine but money talks..

Players could have handled it better thats a given but there you need your moran's as team leader to let the people know.. Cant see it happening..

deiseach · 13-08-2013 03:30PM

The amount of dúirt bean liom go ndúirt bean léi on this thread is unreal.

hardybuck · 13-08-2013 03:30PM

Has anyone got any shred of confidence in the county board holding a robust recruitment process, which results in the best available candidate being appointed to the role?

This is the really worrying thing for me. The poor financial position, also partly their fault, will constrain us in attracting desirable candidates, but will our officials actually have the level of competence to carry out this process effectively?

I cast my mind back to when Fitzgerald's term was up for review a couple of years ago. Cunningham made a passionate plea to him in the media to stay on, and then the following day it was announced that he would be one of a three man committee which was formed to review the manager's position.

You'd like to think that Croke Park would be able to offer more specialist resources to County Boards in this type of situation. Although they may not like to officially admit to it, there is a lot of money involved in each decision.

robopaddy · 13-08-2013 03:36PM

Brad1234 wrote: »

This all starting to get very childish quick.. Sam albeit does it in a confrontational tone, makes some great points on waterford hurling and is talking like the majority of hurling folk in the county...

lord above... read as far as that and didnt need to read any further.

think Im actually done here... dont stop beleiveing peeps!!!

parish girl · 13-08-2013 03:54PM

Did you ever notice what's cheap always ends up dear. Exactly how much have we saved in the last 2 years. Last year the SH cost approx. 40 thousand less than the previous year yet were knocked out of the championship a month earlier. this year they will probably cost another 30-40 less again but knocked out even earlier. Is this saving money?? carry this to its natural conclusion and it would be cheaper not to enter at all. Don t think this is the way to save. We have to speculate to accumulate!. If we drop out of the top tier which we are in serious danger of doing we will find it impossible to find a major sponsor. This would have serious effect on the overall finances as lots of money is raised on the success of the hurlers. But sponsors want to see the jersey with their logos on big days. And ending the season in the qualifiers is not value for money from their point of view.

Motivator · 13-08-2013 03:55PM

I'm going to say one thing and one thing only, someone has to stand up & take responsibility for this. Like him or not Ryan deserves a bit more respect than he is getting. The senior panel look cowardly, if they released a statement & took a bit of responsibility for this then I could stomach it but 2 days after the announcement and we've heard nothing official from the players. This is a joke and its no wonder why we've no all Ireland in over 50 years.

hardybuck · 13-08-2013 03:56PM

parish girl wrote: »

Did you ever notice what's cheap always ends up dear. Exactly how much have we saved in the last 2 years. Last year the SH cost approx. 40 thousand less than the previous year yet were knocked out of the championship a month earlier. this year they will probably cost another 30-40 less again but knocked out even earlier. Is this saving money?? carry this to its natural conclusion and it would be cheaper not to enter at all. Don t think this is the way to save. We have to speculate to accumulate!. If we drop out of the top tier which we are in serious danger of doing we will find it impossible to find a major sponsor. This would have serious effect on the overall finances as lots of money is raised on the success of the hurlers. But sponsors want to see the jersey with their logos on big days. And ending the season in the qualifiers is not value for money from their point of view.

Agree with a lot of that, but we've a problem with cash flow. Without access to cash it's very difficult to invest when and where you need to.

Amprodude · 13-08-2013 03:56PM

Can we please get back on topic and cut out the keyboard warrior stuff.

Anyway what about KenMcGrath? Has he interest in position? Anyone know?

hardybuck · 13-08-2013 03:57PM

Amprodude wrote: »

Can we please get back on topic and cut out the keyboard warrior stuff.

Anyway what about KenMcGrath? Has he interest in position? Anyone know?

Wouldn't be a suitable candidate.

Amprodude · 13-08-2013 03:59PM

hardybuck wrote: »

Wouldn't be a suitable candidate.

Had he a falling out with players or members from County board/management? Or is it lack of experience managing?

hardybuck · 13-08-2013 04:01PM

Amprodude wrote: »

Had he a falling out with players or members from County board/management?

He cited work commitments at the time, having started a new job. Why would you assume a falling out?

Brad1234 · 13-08-2013 04:03PM

robopaddy wrote: »

lord above... read as far as that and didnt need to read any further.

think Im actually done here... dont stop beleiveing peeps!!!

Ah come on now you read more than that!! Who would you like Robo.... Tell me reason and why..

Before you throw it in my face Waterford appointment if Derek wants he has it but its an appointment id accept and keep my counsel but wouldn be over enthusiastic about.

From outsider Its all about cash really.. Id always have loved Nicky English to Manage waterford purely from talking to guys who worked under him and his tactical nous for tipp in 01 was class when on the ropes in a couple of occasions that year. Again its all down to Money and i believe we can attract these types of people purely due to the fact they see the promise..

I think for waterford going forward i believe with the present group we should play a cork July 04-05 style as we lack real pace in he forwards and are defensively very solid.. But the likes of Dillon Shan, barry,Paudie mah and with a bennett coming on the scene we have great movement and hurling brains in the forward line who would enjoy this time of game... Albeit you cant play this style for 70 mins i believe you really get 10/15 mins at the start of each game before the opposition work it out and its imperative to build up a nice lead during that period.. In the second half you will have the opposition pretty tired mentally from chasing and can open the game up then to a more orthodox style..

This is purely based on experience having played against in on numerous occasions v newtownshandrum who were the template and having been completely out on my feet with 10 mins to go purely due to concentration levels dropping and having been zig zagged all over the field ..

You have to play a style to suit your present group and i think with molomphy and philip mah to come back along with daniels and a darragh fives nagle it would suit the perfectly.. The Brick has been doing it himself for years. So an O Grady would probably be the perfect choice but i have issues over the amount of cash he normally requests which i believe to be extortionate

Just a thought.. Over to you now Robo..

Amprodude · 13-08-2013 04:03PM

hardybuck wrote: »

He cited work commitments at the time, having started a new job. Why would you assume a falling out?

It was the only thing i could think of that woukd keep him away from such a position.

hardybuck · 13-08-2013 04:06PM

Amprodude wrote: »

It was the only thing i could think of that woukd keep him away from such a position.

Yeah, well believe it or not but lads have to put food on the table. Very few employers are prepared to allow players as much time off as they used to. I'm sure management are under even more pressure, as there is probably more time commitment from them than players.

deiseach · 13-08-2013 04:09PM

parish girl wrote: »

Did you ever notice what's cheap always ends up dear. Exactly how much have we saved in the last 2 years. Last year the SH cost approx. 40 thousand less than the previous year yet were knocked out of the championship a month earlier. this year they will probably cost another 30-40 less again but knocked out even earlier. Is this saving money?? carry this to its natural conclusion and it would be cheaper not to enter at all. Don t think this is the way to save. We have to speculate to accumulate!. If we drop out of the top tier which we are in serious danger of doing we will find it impossible to find a major sponsor. This would have serious effect on the overall finances as lots of money is raised on the success of the hurlers. But sponsors want to see the jersey with their logos on big days. And ending the season in the qualifiers is not value for money from their point of view.

You do know that not everyone can finish first, don't you? If everyone threw a million quid at their county panels, half the teams would still go out without winning a match. Spending money that we didn't have in pursuit of success that didn't come is the reason the County Board is broke in the first place.

hardybuck · 13-08-2013 04:15PM

deiseach wrote: »

You do know that not everyone can finish first, don't you? If everyone threw a million quid at their county panels, half the teams would still go out without winning a match. Spending money that we didn't have in pursuit of success that didn't come is the reason the County Board is broke in the first place.

It isn't just reckless spending, but poor management of finances overall. Our revenue streams are poor - we get poor attendances at club games for example.

I don't know what sort of commercial agreements we're locked into, but one would doubt if we are getting the best deal from Azzurri, although they are a local manufacturer and we have to be seen to support them if possible.

You've got the likes of the Jedward concert fiasco as well - the current situation wasn't all caused by team expenditure. I'm sure there is a whole catalogue of messy things in the accounts if you sat down and went through them.

deiseach · 13-08-2013 04:18PM

Amprodude wrote: »

Can we please get back on topic and cut out the keyboard warrior stuff.

Agreed. Weren't the Minors great?

deiseach · 13-08-2013 04:19PM

hardybuck wrote: »

It isn't just reckless spending, but poor management of finances overall. Our revenue streams are poor - we get poor attendances at club games for example.

I don't know what sort of commercial agreements we're locked into, but one would doubt if we are getting the best deal from Azzurri, although they are a local manufacturer and we have to be seen to support them if possible.

You've got the likes of the Jedward concert fiasco as well - the current situation wasn't all caused by team expenditure. I'm sure there is a whole catalogue of messy things in the accounts if you sat down and went through them.

All true, and none of them going to be solved by spending big on getting a top inter-county manager.

WumBuster · 13-08-2013 04:28PM

deiseach wrote: »

You do know that not everyone can finish first, don't you? If everyone threw a million quid at their county panels, half the teams would still go out without winning a match. Spending money that we didn't have in pursuit of success that didn't come is the reason the County Board is broke in the first place.

I agree. Its not always about winning. In Cork, KK, Tipp it may be but in Waterford its about playing the game the right way, being competitive with the rest and bringing on younger players. Scully was doing all those things right. Like the minors, if we win an AI great but if we don't its great to be there anyway. If a Cork, Tipp or KK team lose an AI final they are regarded as failures in their own county and are quickly forgotten about. Is that what we want to become?

Mountainlad · 13-08-2013 04:28PM

parish girl wrote: »

Did you ever notice what's cheap always ends up dear. Exactly how much have we saved in the last 2 years. Last year the SH cost approx. 40 thousand less than the previous year yet were knocked out of the championship a month earlier. this year they will probably cost another 30-40 less again but knocked out even earlier. Is this saving money?? carry this to its natural conclusion and it would be cheaper not to enter at all. Don t think this is the way to save. We have to speculate to accumulate!. If we drop out of the top tier which we are in serious danger of doing we will find it impossible to find a major sponsor. This would have serious effect on the overall finances as lots of money is raised on the success of the hurlers. But sponsors want to see the jersey with their logos on big days. And ending the season in the qualifiers is not value for money from their point of view.

Progress is definitely a very subjective term. In 2011, we played Limerick and we were blessed to come out of it with a win. We struggled past a poor Clare side in 2010, in 2009 it was poor Limerick side. I think the team was far better than they were performing under Davy and we were getting the results the team should have been expected to get, but unfortunately it was largely down to very poor teams outside of Tipp and Kilkenny.

I would say there's been a substantial progression from the 2011 Munster final. The only results based progression we could possibly have had is to get into an all-ireland final. Did you really believe we would be contesting an all-ireland final this year or last? It's fine all this retrospective talk about "oh look at Cork and Limerick and Clare", but people were saying an all-ireland semi final would be a very good year this year, even after the league.

I don't get how people assume now that Clare, Limerick, Cork and Dublin are all greatly improved that that somehow makes it easier for us to win an all-ireland. I do believe are team has been under-rated for a good while, but at the same time we were favourites for relegation two years in a row and very nearly topped the table this year.

I'm not going to argue a fantastic job has been done, but we're definitely ina better position now than we were at the end of 2011 in my estimation. In terms of Mullane going, it was kind of inevitable. He wasn't getting any younger, he still played very well in 2012 but to be honest I think I'm happy enough that the younger players are in there taking more responsibility. Ray Barry a prime example, scoring 1-3 against Kilkenny. Jake Dillon also has been fantastic. Last year, Barry was subbed in the u21 mauling, and Dillon was either subbed or should have been in the Intermediate mauling.

Tell me that's not progress!!

parish girl · 13-08-2013 04:30PM

Would not agree that the spending on SHs are what got us into debt. Part of the problem with finances is a very poor treasurer with no financial acumen. Davy was supposed to be the cause of all our problems but since he left our finances have gone through the floor. So the SH spend was clearly not the problem. As I said we only saved money there by getting knocked out earlier!! When the SH are going well money flows in a bit easier through sponsors and through more supporter involvement. The minors may help this year. Imagine what a fiasco the golf classic would be this year if the minors had not made the breakthrough. Raising money for SH who were out of the championship nearly 2 months would be a disaster.

Mountainlad · 13-08-2013 04:30PM

deiseach wrote: »

Agreed. Weren't the Minors great?

Fair bit of criticism aimed there way here too. I guess a lot's expected of them given their talents, but given the teams we've had in the last 4 years couldn't get to a final it is an absolutely fantastic achievement and more positive news at underage for us.

Ropaire · 13-08-2013 04:30PM

deiseach wrote: »

All true, and none of them going to be solved by spending big on getting a top inter-county manager.

How much is a top county manager likely to set us back? And what defines a top county manager? I'd like to see Joe Dooley get it, I think he walked from Offaly out of frustration and he might be open to taking the Waterford job if he sees potential in it.

Amprodude · 13-08-2013 04:35PM

deiseach wrote: »

Agreed. Weren't the Minors great?

Great win, delighted ye got through and have a great opportunity in final. Dj Forlan and Stephen Bennette great prospects for the future for Waterford.

Totally Tropical · 13-08-2013 04:35PM

Justin McCarthy wasn't good enough and now Michael Ryan wasn't good enough.What a disgraceful way to treat two fine hurling men.

parish girl · 13-08-2013 04:36PM

Mountainlad wrote: »

Progress is definitely a very subjective term. In 2011, we played Limerick and we were blessed to come out of it with a win. We struggled past a poor Clare side in 2010, in 2009 it was poor Limerick side. I think the team was far better than they were performing under Davy and we were getting the results the team should have been expected to get, but unfortunately it was largely down to very poor teams outside of Tipp and Kilkenny.

I would say there's been a substantial progression from the 2011 Munster final. The only results based progression we could possibly have had is to get into an all-ireland final. Did you really believe we would be contesting an all-ireland final this year or last? It's fine all this retrospective talk about "oh look at Cork and Limerick and Clare", but people were saying an all-ireland semi final would be a very good year this year, even after the league.

I don't get how people assume now that Clare, Limerick, Cork and Dublin are all greatly improved that that somehow makes it easier for us to win an all-ireland. I do believe are team has been under-rated for a good while, but at the same time we were favourites for relegation two years in a row and very nearly topped the table this year.

I'm not going to argue a fantastic job has been done, but we're definitely ina better position now than we were at the end of 2011 in my estimation. In terms of Mullane going, it was kind of inevitable. He wasn't getting any younger, he still played very well in 2012 but to be honest I think I'm happy enough that the younger players are in there taking more responsibility. Ray Barry a prime example, scoring 1-3 against Kilkenny. Jake Dillon also has been fantastic. Last year, Barry was subbed in the u21 mauling, and Dillon was either subbed or should have been in the Intermediate mauling.

Tell me that's not progress!!

Am wondering about the whole Mullane thing. He wasn't the only fellow to make himself unavailable. Shane Sullivan, Philip Mahony, the sullivans and Stevie Molomphy were also unavailable at various times. Take Molumphy for example I know he was going away but he didn't go till April and was back recently for Ballyduff so he could have played a part but for some reason didn't. To be honest it was unheard of in times past for so many to be not available. One theory would be lack of confidence in management!!

Waterford GAA Discussion Thread 2011-2012

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