Tension between Britain and Spain reaches new high

RobitTV · 04-08-2013 9:44pm #1

British Foreign Office vows to safeguard British sovereignty over Gibraltar after Spanish minister escalates row, promising a harder line.

José García-Margallo, speaking to the Spanish newspaper ABC, criticised the conciliatory stance by the previous government towards the British Mediterranean outpost, and warned: "The party is over."

He suggested that a €50 (£43.40) fee could be imposed on every vehicle entering or leaving the territory, known as the Rock, via the border with Spain. The minister said the proceeds would be used to help Spanish fishermen affected by damage to fishing grounds allegedly caused by the Gibraltarian authorities. Such a fee would be a punitive cost on residents who regularly commute to Spain for work.

Spain is also considering closing its airspace to flights heading to Gibraltar, and changing the law so that online gaming companies operating from the British overseas territory have to use Spanish servers and come under the jurisdiction of Madrid's taxation regime, García-Margallo said. He also indicated that the Spanish tax authorities may launch an investigation into property owned by about 6,000 Gibraltarians in neighbouring parts of Spain, as part of its EU obligations to control "fiscal irregularities".

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/04/gibraltar-comments-madrid-london-uk-spain

Can i just say Maybe the Moroccans should start doing the same to the Spanish in their enclave in Tetouan?

It's quite clear this is a huge political diversion by the Spanish Government to relieve the pressure it is under from the Spanish population. With high unemployment, huge debts, no growth and the Spanish Prime Minister under intense pressure over his mishandling of a major scandal. This has got nothing to do with reclaiming Gibraltar, it's the Spanish PM's fight for political survival and he hopes this red herring will rally the Spanish people behind him.

As 1,000's of Spanish people work in Gibraltar everyday the biggest victims will be their own nationals, probably increasing the unemployment in Southern Spain as it will not pay them to go in to work, the Spanish government must be crackers or just plain idiotic.

Mr.Micro · 04-08-2013 10:01pm

We always get this sabre rattling when the Tories are in power. Still think they have an empire.

Sr. Pirotecnic · 04-08-2013 10:06pm

Tetuan is in Morocco. Ceuta and Melilla are the names of the Spanish enclaves.

Karl Stein · 04-08-2013 10:14pm

All GB has to do is cede the tip of Cornwall to Spain and balance will be restored.

Manach · 04-08-2013 10:19pm

Historically this has been a sore point ever since Gib. was ceded to Britain. Spanish action would be severely limited by various directives that inhibit the flow of people/capital.

alastair · 04-08-2013 10:30pm

Mr.Micro wrote: »

We always get this sabre rattling when the Tories are in power. Still think they have an empire.

I didn't realise the Tories were in power in Spain - where all of this guff is coming from. Spanish 'sabre rattling' about Gib is a regular enough occurrence - regardless of who's in power in Westminster.

Swan Curry · 05-08-2013 2:29am

I'm sure both governments are happy about the Gibraltar situation.It's a good distraction for them to use if Spain's economy gets even worse or if the Tories figure out a new way for ATOS to **** the disabled over.

Jonny7 · 05-08-2013 9:06am

Sr. Pirotecnic wrote: »

Tetuan is in Morocco. Ceuta and Melilla are the names of the Spanish enclaves.

Again, I would be interested in what those in the Spanish gov have to say about this

Seems to be nothing more than populist nationalism

Sand · 05-08-2013 6:28pm

The British would be well-advised to ignore the Spanish. Even a minor retaliatory action would be dumb as it would give oxygen to the fight the Spanish are trying to pick. They just need to remain calm, and wait for the adults to take over in Madrid. The Spanish cant do all the much without breaching EU directives, though Cameron might be loathe to mention the EU in a positive light given how his party views things.

I am pie · 05-08-2013 6:34pm

Rajoy needs to deflect attention from his govt, gets one of the minions to rattle the rusty sabre in Gibraltar's direction. The British say they are concerned. Soon enough all sides return to their corners happy that they deflected a bit of attention from their economies,and in the case of Spain, their corruption scandals.

RobitTV · 05-08-2013 10:40pm

I expect things to most certainly heat up over the next few weeks and months, The First Minster of Gibraltar said earlier - "I have no regrets comparing Margallo to Franco. Everything he threatens to do Franco did in the 1960s. I think the comparison is entirely appropriate.

"As for comparing Spain to North Korea, North Korea has a reputation for making leftfield comments, and that's just how I see what Margallo said."

He said: "It's not about fish, it's about sovereignty. The Spanish have always claimed rights to Gibraltar's waters that they don't have."

But I'm not Joking they may think David Cameron is a pushover which he overall probably is But messing with a territory of the UK and trying to blockade the territory and making threats of blocking airspace will not go unnoticed without a bit of action by the UK either that be Economically, Politically or even Militarily.

I expect it has reached the point that a British warship will be sent down to safeguard the territory as a whole and the territorial waters. Spain has sent boats into the waters of Gibraltar and lately a Spanish civil guard boat opened fire on a Holidaymaker in the Waters of Gibraltar, He was in a jet ski which stayed at all times in the Waters of Gibraltar the Spanish vessel entered and opened gun fire.

I don't think it will come to a point of Armed conflict between the two countries but i shall be expecting rising tensions.

RobitTV · 05-08-2013 10:45pm

Spain to sell Warplanes to Argentina which are a threat to the Falkland Islands

SPAIN is selling a fleet of Mirage fighter jets to Argentina in a £10million deal that fuels suspicions over relations between the nations who are both opposed to British territorial possessions, writes Marco Giannangeli.

President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner approved the deal, which will give Argentina the capability to attack the Falklands with laser-guided bombs. The 20 aircraft sold to the Argentine military are at Spain’s Albacete air base and will be shipped to Tandil air base south of Buenos Aires.

Built in France, the multi-role fighter has a top speed of 1,320mph and a range of 500 miles, boosting Argentina’s ability to “pester” the Falklands from its southern air bases.

Spain will provide spares and a training simulator and will train the initial batch of Argentine air force pilots selected from the military’s Fuerza Aerea Argentina Grupo 6 de Caza of the 6th Air Brigade.

The Ministry of Defence said the Falklands have adequate air protection from two RAF Eurofighter Typhoon fighters.

However, a senior RAF source said: “It will take eight months to get them fully operational and then we may get an indication of their intent and if they decide to fly the aircraft into UK air space.

“If the Argentines start playing games and escalate the tension we will see more RAF aircraft being deployed to the Falklands.”

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/419522/Jet-fighter-threat-to-the-Falkland-Islands

paul71 · 05-08-2013 11:45pm

RobitTV wrote: »

I expect it has reached the point that a British warship will be sent down to safeguard the territory as a whole and the territorial waters. Spain has sent boats into the waters of Gibraltar and lately a Spanish civil guard boat opened fire on a Holidaymaker in the Waters of Gibraltar, He was in a jet ski which stayed at all times in the Waters of Gibraltar the Spanish vessel entered and opened gun fire.

Did a search on the holidaymaker being shot upon, because to be honest I would have expected to have something as outlandishly highhanded as this to be all over the news networks.

The only thing I found is this.

http://www.thespoof.co.uk/news/uk/114640/queen-apoplectic-as-gibraltar-holiday-brit-jet-skier-shot-at-by-spanish-boat-patrol

Gregor Samsa · 06-08-2013 9:20am

paul71 wrote: »

Did a search on the holidaymaker being shot upon, because to be honest I would have expected to have something as outlandishly highhanded as this to be all over the news networks.

The only thing I found is this.

http://www.thespoof.co.uk/news/uk/114640/queen-apoplectic-as-gibraltar-holiday-brit-jet-skier-shot-at-by-spanish-boat-patrol

It was all over the news. There's even (alleged) video footage of it.

Google search for "shot jet ski" returns many relevant results. Here's selection:

Spanish police fire four shots at British jet skier off Gibraltar (Daily Mail):
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2348272/Spanish-police-shots-British-jet-skier-Gibraltar-UK-government-condemn-completely-unacceptable-use-force-British-waters.html

Britain protests to Spain after jet-skier shot at off Gibraltar (Telegraph):
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/10142230/Britain-protests-to-Spain-after-jet-skier-shot-at-off-Gibraltar.html

Gibraltar Jetski Shooting: UK Protests To Spain (Sky News):
http://news.sky.com/story/1108323/gibraltar-jetski-shooting-uk-protests-to-spain

UK protests after 'shots fired at jet skier' off Gibraltar (BBC):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23044236

FTA69 · 06-08-2013 10:19am

Jonny7 wrote: »

Again, I would be interested in what those in the Spanish gov have to say about this

Seems to be nothing more than populist nationalism

They simply state out of hand that those places are an integral part of Spain as opposed to a colony, which is what Gibraltar is.

Or some sort of hypocritical sh*te along those lines.

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 06-08-2013 10:28am

Sand wrote: »

The British would be well-advised to ignore the Spanish. Even a minor retaliatory action would be dumb as it would give oxygen to the fight the Spanish are trying to pick. They just need to remain calm, and wait for the adults to take over in Madrid. The Spanish cant do all the much without breaching EU directives, though Cameron might be loathe to mention the EU in a positive light given how his party views things.

They can effectivley shut down the border. Gibralter is not covered by the Schengen Agreement, so the Spanish can effectivley stop every vehicle and person entering and leaving Gibralter and insist on checking their papers, stamping their passport, searching their belonings.
With only say two Spanish Customs officials on duty at any one time it would lead to huge delays at the border, and they wouldn't be breaking any EU laws.

Fratton Fred · 06-08-2013 10:51am

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

They can effectivley shut down the border. Gibralter is not covered by the Schengen Agreement, so the Spanish can effectivley stop every vehicle and person entering and leaving Gibralter and insist on checking their papers, stamping their passport, searching their belonings.
With only say two Spanish Customs officials on duty at any one time it would lead to huge delays at the border, and they wouldn't be breaking any EU laws.

Then they would have to apply that to all non schengen flights, including those from Britain and Ireland, otherwise they are being disproportionate. Charging to cross the border would affect free movement, which is the foundation of the eu.

None of it will happen though, in six months time this will be forgotten.

riffmongous · 06-08-2013 5:26pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Then they would have to apply that to all non schengen flights, including those from Britain and Ireland, otherwise they are being disproportionate. Charging to cross the border would affect free movement, which is the foundation of the eu.

None of it will happen though, in six months time this will be forgotten.

Doesn't Gibraltar have different tax laws and such to Britain though? In that case I don't think it would be so disproportionate to just close that border. Plus there seems to be a huge smuggling problem.

Fratton Fred · 06-08-2013 10:16pm

riffmongous wrote: »

Doesn't Gibraltar have different tax laws and such to Britain though? In that case I don't think it would be so disproportionate to just close that border. Plus there seems to be a huge smuggling problem.

All eu countries have different tax laws, I don't see what difference that makes.

The UK treats it's overseas territories differently to the other former empires. Gib, the Falklands etc all have their own government but the UK manages their defence and foreign affairs. France, Spain and Portugal treat theirs as an overseas extension of their country, hence Gibraltar can set its own tax rate.

It is, however, a member of the eu the same way Madeira and Gran Canaria are.

Sand · 06-08-2013 10:23pm

If there is a case to argue, then Spain would have to argue it in a European court. And they would probably lose (The EU commission is already swinging into action to warn the Spanish they need to adhere to EU law when it comes to Gibraltar). And they would probably have to suffer the British throwing a spanner into every Spanish works they could find at an EU and national level. And they'd have to weigh all that up vs. the benefit of showboating.

The British have held Gibraltar since the early 1700s. Their claim to that piece of land is older than all states of the Americas (and most modern European nation states - the Irish Republic only declared its claim to the island of Ireland in 1916 and Irish republicanism only dates back to the late 1700s). And the population of Gibraltar seem to want it to continue. So by every measure worth considering (historical and democratic) the current status of Gibraltar seems just and secure.

If Spain has some inherent claim to Gibraltar because it is attached to the peninsula then what is Portugal's claim to independence worth? It is all just nonsense from some genius in the Spanish government.

riffmongous · 06-08-2013 11:02pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

All eu countries have different tax laws, I don't see what difference that makes.

The UK treats it's overseas territories differently to the other former empires. Gib, the Falklands etc all have their own government but the UK manages their defence and foreign affairs. France, Spain and Portugal treat theirs as an overseas extension of their country, hence Gibraltar can set its own tax rate.

It is, however, a member of the eu the same way Madeira and Gran Canaria are.

I think that Gibraltar's tax laws would add some credibility to any Spanish attempt to "block" only the Gibraltar border, at the very least it would get some sympathy from the same countries in the EU who are annoyed with Ireland's tax position.

Fratton Fred · 07-08-2013 6:36am

riffmongous wrote: »

I think that Gibraltar's tax laws would add some credibility to any Spanish attempt to "block" only the Gibraltar border, at the very least it would get some sympathy from the same countries in the EU who are annoyed with Ireland's tax position.

Gibraltar's tax laws have nothing to do with this. Would other countries be able to introduce border charges with Gran Canaria or Jersey?

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 07-08-2013 9:34pm

They would NOT be breaking any EU law by stopping and searching every vehicle entering Spain from Gibralter, and by having only one Person on duty to do it they could easily logjam the border.

Manach · 07-08-2013 9:40pm

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

They would NOT be breaking any EU law by stopping and searching every vehicle entering Spain from Gibralter, and by having only one Person on duty to do it they could easily logjam the border.

Offhand I don't think that is the case. AFAIK back in the 80s the French tried something similar in regard imported lamb and low resourced custom processing. The EU commission took them to task over this.

RobitTV · 08-08-2013 10:24pm

Latest: British Warships set sail for Gibraltar

British warships are to visit Gibraltar in a show of strength in the stand-off with Spain over control of The Rock.

Three ships including the frigate HMS Westminster will sail for the region on Monday even as the diplomatic row with Madrid escalates over plans for draconian border controls.

The move comes just days after Gibraltar’s chief minister called for the British military to send forces into the area.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/warship-given-gibraltar-deployment-29484522.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2386850/British-warships-set-sail-Gibraltar-strength-diplomatic-row-border-controls-deepens.html

racso1975 · 08-08-2013 10:36pm

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

They would NOT be breaking any EU law by stopping and searching every vehicle entering Spain from Gibralter, and by having only one Person on duty to do it they could easily logjam the border.

They did this 2 weeks ago. I was over at the time average wait time to cross border was 4-6 hours and they ended up giving out something like 11k bottles of water

Fratton Fred · 09-08-2013 7:17am

RobitTV wrote: »

Latest: British Warships set sail for Gibraltar

British warships are to visit Gibraltar in a show of strength in the stand-off with Spain over control of The Rock.

Three ships including the frigate HMS Westminster will sail for the region on Monday even as the diplomatic row with Madrid escalates over plans for draconian border controls.

The move comes just days after Gibraltar’s chief minister called for the British military to send forces into the area.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/warship-given-gibraltar-deployment-29484522.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2386850/British-warships-set-sail-Gibraltar-strength-diplomatic-row-border-controls-deepens.html

That's massively sensationalist. RN ships are in and out of Gib all the time.

RobitTV · 12-08-2013 2:15pm

Falklands and Gibraltar: Spain considering a joint front with Argentina at UN, says Madrid media

According to reports in Sunday’s Madrid media, besides the Repsol/YPF controversy, Garcia-Margalla and Hector Timerman will discuss if Spain and Argentina can have a unified position at the UN to challenge the British government on their territorial disputes.

“Currently it could be attractive an entente with Buenos Aires: Argentina is a member of the Security Council in 2013/14 and could include, or at least attempt to, the Gibraltar issue in the Security Council agenda. Even when the UK has a veto right, it should abstain on an issue that involves her directly”, points out El Pais quoting diplomatic sources.

“The minister is travelling to Argentina in September and plans to exchange ideas over the matter,” the source added. Argentina is immersed in its own dispute with Britain over the sovereignty of the Falkland Islands.

Nevertheless the newspaper also admits that the Repsol/YPF dispute which distanced both countries to almost the breaking of all dialogue and threats of trade conflicts could be a difficulty for such an approach between the governments of Cristina Fernandez and Mariano Rajoy.

http://en.mercopress.com/2013/08/12/falklands-and-gibraltar-spain-considering-a-joint-front-with-argentina-at-un-says-madrid-media

RobitTV · 12-08-2013 2:25pm

Latest: Gibraltar tensions soar as UK threatens legal action over border checks and HMS Illustrious and two other warships sets sail for Med

Downing Street said it was considering the 'unprecedented step' against Spain

The Government today threatened legal action against Spain over the "politically motivated" imposition of extra checks on the frontier with Gibraltar.

Diplomatic tensions between the two countries looked set to soar after Downing Street said it was considering the "unprecedented step" against Madrid.

"This would be an unprecedented step so we want to consider it carefully before a making a decision to pursue."

He said: "We feel these delays are politically motivated and totally disproportionate".

Ministers were discussing whether to pursue the issue as a "matter of urgency" with the European Union, the spokesman added.

Earlier, thousands of Royal Navy personnel set sail for a training deployment in the Mediterranean.

The helicopter carrier HMS Illustrious left Portsmouth Naval Base, Hampshire, and will join the navy flagship HMS Bulwark, which has sailed from Devonport for the Cougar '13 operation.

Also sailing tomorrow will be HMS Westminster, a type 23 frigate, which will visit Gibraltar en route.

Other UK ships taking part are another type 23 frigate, HMS Montrose, and six Royal Fleet Auxiliary (RFA) ships.

The vessels will be taking part in what defence officials stressed was a long-scheduled deployment in the Mediterranean and the Gulf.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/gibraltar-tensions-soar-as-uk-threatens-legal-action-over-border-checks-and-hms-illustrious-sets-sail-for-med-8757581.html

alastair · 12-08-2013 2:33pm

The vessels will be taking part in what defence officials stressed was a long-scheduled deployment in the Mediterranean and the Gulf.

Non-news story.

Fratton Fred · 12-08-2013 3:27pm

Hmmm, if we get heavy with the Brits and support you on the Falklands issue, can we have our oil company back?

Jonny7 · 12-08-2013 3:30pm

Spain now bringing Argentina into this, thus forming the axis of 16th century jingo-ism, tabloids having a field day

Fratton Fred · 12-08-2013 3:59pm

Jonny7 wrote: »

Spain now bringing Argentina into this, thus forming the axis of 16th century jingo-ism, tabloids having a field day

I wonder if this entente will also be raising the issue of Ceuta with the security council.

I'm actually feeling embarrassed for Spain.

Jonny7 · 12-08-2013 4:54pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'm actually feeling embarrassed for Spain.

These base political sideshows often have a knack for bypassing common sense with Juan commoner. Just look at Argentina who actually went to war in the eighties over this type of silliness.

Mr.Micro · 12-08-2013 5:34pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I wonder if this entente will also be raising the issue of Ceuta with the security council.

I'm actually feeling embarrassed for Spain.

I suppose it distracts the people from the state of the economy and intensifies patriotism?

Cork boy 55 · 12-08-2013 6:27pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I wonder if this entente will also be raising the issue of Ceuta with the security council.

I'm actually feeling embarrassed for Spain.

(1)
Gibraltar is a colony and is recognized as such internationally including the United Nations

The United Nations list of Non-Self-Governing Territories is a list of countries that, according to the United Nations, are colonized.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_list_of_Non-Self-Governing_Territories

(2)
Ceuta and Melilla are Spanish territories in Africa and their status is disputed as part of a territorial border dispute between two neighboring states Spain and Morocco

(3)
Comparing Gibraltar to Ceuta and Melilla is just inaccurate whataboutery and is like comparing apples and oranges

(4)
Even IF we class the Gibraltar dispute as a Border issue and not a colonial one.
Spains claim to Ceuta and Melilla is far greater than the britons claim to Gibraltar due to a number of factors including
In every border dispute there are various factors that need to be accessed in order to order to weigh up each sides claim

-3 main ones

(a)
Size of population is far greater 155,000 + compared to 30,000 for gib

(b)
Proximity to Spain,

-Spain is just 19km from Ceuta
-Melila is a bit further out ?

(c)
Length of time held

-Ceuta has been under either Portuguese control since 1415 and Spanish since 1580

-Spain holds Melilla port since 1497

Fratton Fred · 12-08-2013 9:34pm

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

(1)
Gibraltar is a colony and is recognized as such internationally including the United Nations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_list_of_Non-Self-Governing_Territories

(2)
Ceuta and Melilla are Spanish territories in Africa and their status is disputed as part of a territorial border dispute between two neighboring states Spain and Morocco

(3)
Comparing Gibraltar to Ceuta and Melilla is just inaccurate whataboutery and is like comparing apples and oranges

(4)
Even IF we class the Gibraltar dispute as a Border issue and not a colonial one.
Spains claim to Ceuta and Melilla is far greater than the britons claim to Gibraltar due to a number of factors including
In every border dispute there are various factors that need to be accessed in order to order to weigh up each sides claim

-3 main ones

(a)
Size of population is far greater 155,000 + compared to 30,000 for gib

(b)
Proximity to Spain,

-Spain is just 19km from Ceuta
-Melila is a bit further out ?

(c)
Length of time held

-Ceuta has been under either Portuguese control since 1415 and Spanish since 1580

-Spain holds Melilla port since 1497

So population and length of control are important factors, yet the wishes of the people are irrelevant?

Someone better tell Michael D to hand the keys to Phoenix park back to Liz then.

Cork boy 55 · 12-08-2013 10:34pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So population and length of control are important factors, yet the wishes of the people are irrelevant?

Someone better tell Michael D to hand the keys to Phoenix park back to Liz then.

Where did I say that?
The variable "Population size" relates to wishes of said population
The bigger the population the better the claim

A tiny population the size of gibs residing on a tiny enclave 1,800 km
from the Imperial capital is clearly a colony(as recognized by UN) and a fragment of a defunct empire and should be returned
Funny how the british empire got all democratic its in death roll

Fratton Fred · 12-08-2013 11:07pm

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Where did I say that?
The variable "Population size" relates to wishes of said population
The bigger the population the better the claim

A tiny population the size of gibs residing on a tiny enclave 1,800 km
from the Imperial capital is clearly a colony(as recognized by UN) and a fragment of a defunct empire and should be returned
Funny how the british empire got all democratic its in death roll

Aah, so this is more about sticking it to da Brits than actual common sense.

Cork boy 55 · 12-08-2013 11:20pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Aah, so this is more about sticking it to da Brits than actual common sense.

Common sense Says It should be returned to Spain.

Jonny7 · 13-08-2013 12:35am

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Common sense Says It should be returned to Spain.

IN 2002, 99% of the population of Gibraltar rejected joint sovereignty of Spain and UK, that is really what dictates the situation.

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 13-08-2013 6:53am

Jonny7 wrote: »

IN 2002, 99% of the population of Gibraltar rejected joint sovereignty of Spain and UK, that is really what dictates the situation.

this is true.
Spain has the right however to protect its border and to take all such action as it deems necessary to limit smuggling across that border.
Stopping and searching vehicles to defeat smuggling and other illegal activities is reasonable, just look how seiously the UK engages in it.

Fratton Fred · 13-08-2013 6:56am

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

this is true.
Spain has the right however to protect its border and to take all such action as it deems necessary to limit smuggling across that border.
Stopping and searching vehicles to defeat smuggling and other illegal activities is reasonable, just look how seiously the UK engages in it.

Is that why the UK stops and searches every car heading up the M1 and charges €50 to get off the ferry in holyhead?

Jonny7 · 13-08-2013 7:54am

Sir Humphrey Appleby wrote: »

this is true.
Spain has the right however to protect its border and to take all such action as it deems necessary to limit smuggling across that border.
Stopping and searching vehicles to defeat smuggling and other illegal activities is reasonable, just look how seiously the UK engages in it.

That's just a political move

junder · 13-08-2013 8:07am

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Where did I say that?
The variable "Population size" relates to wishes of said population
The bigger the population the better the claim

A tiny population the size of gibs residing on a tiny enclave 1,800 km
from the Imperial capital is clearly a colony(as recognized by UN) and a fragment of a defunct empire and should be returned
Funny how the british empire got all democratic its in death roll

Funny how some Irish republicans / nationalists get all undemocratic when the issue involves Britain

Cork boy 55 · 13-08-2013 12:45pm

junder wrote: »

Funny how some Irish republicans / nationalists get all undemocratic when the issue involves Britain

Headcounts of tiny populations are merely figleafs to justify a military base 1800 km from london.
Democracy and the right to self determination of this tiny population have nothing to do with the current british colony and bases there it is related to its strategic position and its military importance combined with british stubbornness and some misplaced imperial jingoism and their warlike nature.
The same attitude which led to the slaughter in the South Atlantic in 1982
over a population the size of a village.

I am all for the rationalization of human frontiers and the decolonization process to be completed. Whether it be the remnants of the british empire
The unification of Korea and Cyprus or the return of Guantanamo Naval base Bay to Cuba and scores of other examples.

junder · 13-08-2013 1:08pm

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Headcounts of tiny populations are merely figleafs to justify a military base 1800 km from london.
Democracy and the right to self determination of this tiny population have nothing to do with the current british colony and bases there it is related to its strategic position and its military importance combined with british stubbornness and some misplaced imperial jingoism and their warlike nature.
The same attitude which led to the slaughter in the South Atlantic in 1982
over a population the size of a village.

I am all for the rationalization of human frontiers and the decolonization process to be completed. Whether it be the remnants of the british empire
The unification of Korea and Cyprus or the return of Guantanamo Naval base Bay to Cuba and scores of other examples.

Right so it was the British fault for the argentines invading the Falklands? Nothing to do with a miltary junta trying to hold onto power. Would you have supporterd he falkland islanders being handed over to the arguntine junta then? Just who would Cyprus of Korea be unified under exactly?

Jonny7 · 13-08-2013 1:19pm

Does the decolonization include getting the Spanish out of South America?.. or where do we draw the line in this medieval whataboutery

Dear Guadeloupe, French Guiana, and Reunion you may now cast off your chains of French colonial oppression and be rightfully returned to whatever landmass is geographically closest. Oh Guiana, what's that, you democratically chose to stay linked to Paris? you leave the Spanish colonists no choice but to use force to claim what is rightfully theirs

Fratton Fred · 13-08-2013 1:41pm

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Headcounts of tiny populations are merely figleafs to justify a military base 1800 km from london.
Democracy and the right to self determination of this tiny population have nothing to do with the current british colony and bases there it is related to its strategic position and its military importance combined with british stubbornness and some misplaced imperial jingoism and their warlike nature.
The same attitude which led to the slaughter in the South Atlantic in 1982
over a population the size of a village.

I am all for the rationalization of human frontiers and the decolonization process to be completed. Whether it be the remnants of the british empire
The unification of Korea and Cyprus or the return of Guantanamo Naval base Bay to Cuba and scores of other examples.

There's really no need to respond to this point by point. You clearly make your stance obvious.

Remind us all again why the Falklands belongs to Argentina?

FTA69 · 13-08-2013 2:30pm

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Comparing Gibraltar to Ceuta and Melilla is just inaccurate whataboutery and is like comparing apples and oranges

It isn't though really is it? Ceuta and Melilla are remnants of an imperial age whereby European powers claimed dominion over north Africa and regarded it as either their own personal sphere of influence or else integral parts of their own country. Ceuta is no more an integral part of Spain than Algeria was an integral part of France. If you are using the "common sense" argument regarding Gibralter then it also applies to Ceuta and Melilla which are obviously part of Morocco.

(a)
Size of population is far greater 155,000 + compared to 30,000 for gib

Semantical nonsense. Either they have a claim to the place or they don't, population has nothing to do with it.

Proximity to Spain,

-Spain is just 19km from Ceuta
-Melila is a bit further out ?

It's across the sea on a different continent and in the middle of territory belonging to a different country. It's hardly next door in real terms.

(c)
Length of time held

-Ceuta has been under either Portuguese control since 1415 and Spanish since 1580

-Spain holds Melilla port since 1497

Again, wholly irrelevant. By your logic the Brits just have to hold Gibralter for another few years and their claim is then watertight?

Spanish posturing over Gibraltar is nonsense. This isn't a case of imperialist Britain attempting to bully some nation 'yearning to be free', rather a resurgence of an ugly jingoistic and ultra-nationalistic strain that runs through Spanish society. They themselves hold colonies in Morocco and have the brass balls to state they're part of Spain while at the same time throwing a hissy fit over Gibraltar. This is the same state that also bans newspapers, youth groups, mandated political parties and has sponsored death squads back in the 1980s all in pursuit of its chauvinistic ideal of a 'one, pure Spain'.

Is Gibraltar a cynical colony at this stage? Of course it is, but this is a row between countries up to their necks in imperialism and neither of them have any semblance of the moral high ground.

RobitTV · 13-08-2013 3:02pm

Whenever Gibraltar comes up, Ceuta and Meilla also crop up.

But it seems, even the Spanish forget to mention - many might not even be aware - that Spain has MORE THAN TWO ENCLAVES in the Moroccan coastline.

Ceuta and Melilla are of course Autonomous cities, but there are FOUR other areas known as "Sovereign Places" (Plazas de Soberania).

Islas Chafarinas
Isla Congreso
Isla del Rey
Isla Isabel II

Peñón de Alhucemas (which also includes, Isla de Mar and Isla de Tierra)
Peñón de Vélez de la Gomera

All of the above are militray outposts and no civillians live there.

Also, the Isla del Perejil which laughinly was at a centre of a massive dispute a few years back and is probably the last time the Spanish military saw any action.

Mapa_del_sur_de_Espa%C3%B1a_neutral.png

Tension between Britain and Spain reaches new high

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