Why can nobody speak Irish?

Iwasfrozen · 09-08-2013 12:20PM

HurtLocker wrote: »

Yes I still don't understand why we would unlearn English to become irish speaking for the sack of then relearning English like a foreigner. Is this just aload of "ifs" and "imagine" scenarios or is there an actual way to make people speak irish as a first language. We already speak the language of business why change that?

The only way I can ever see us returning Irish as the dominant language of the country is as follows:

" Pick one year, say 2025 and resolve to have all children entering play school in 2025 entering a totally Irish language environment. Change the primary schools by 2026 and the secondary schools by 2034 then have the colleges speaking Irish by 2050. By 2065 the country would be Irish speaking again because people would only know technical terms needed for their employment in Irish."

Tony EH · 09-08-2013 12:21PM

NTMK wrote: »

...but go to any country and leave the touristy spots and you'll realise a lot of people dont speak english. it would be the same here

So, you're actually agreeing with the point here? Or partially agreeing with it.

In my opinion, such a thing would be detrimental to us as a nation.

Rubeter · 09-08-2013 12:22PM

HurtLocker wrote: »

Yes I still don't understand why we would unlearn English to become irish speaking for the sack of then relearning English like a foreigner. Is this just aload of "ifs" and "imagine" scenarios or is there an actual way to make people speak irish as a first language. We already speak the language of business why change that?

Read what the discussion is/was actually about (it is a few pages long) then get back to me with a relevant reply if you want.

An Coilean · 09-08-2013 12:22PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

let the Universities set their own requirements.

Universities do set their own requirements.

Rubeter · 09-08-2013 12:24PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We would already have English we wouldn't need to learn it. Since we do have English though our ability to learn useful languages like French or German would still be rubbish.

Christ, the discussion was about our NOT speaking English.

Tony EH · 09-08-2013 12:24PM

An Coilean wrote: »

Universities do set their own requirements.

Perhaps he meant schools, and bodies that set the curriculum?

An Coilean · 09-08-2013 12:27PM

Tony EH wrote: »

Perhaps he meant schools, and bodies that set the curriculum?

He said universities and I expect that is what he ment.

Iwasfrozen · 09-08-2013 12:28PM

An Coilean wrote: »

Universities do set their own requirements.

Tony EH wrote: »

Perhaps he meant schools, and bodies that set the curriculum?

Yep, make all subjects optional and allow the universities to set their own requirements for each course. For example NUI colleges require Irish and that should be enough for anyone interested in going to an NUI college.

Iwasfrozen · 09-08-2013 12:29PM

Rubeter wrote: »

Christ, the discussion was about our NOT speaking English.

This discussion is far too theoretical not to mention theatrical. Have fun kids!

RichieO · 09-08-2013 12:38PM

Treating the the thread title as a question, Why can nobody speak Irish? my answer would have to be " For the same reason no-one sends telegrams, it's antiquated and far from the best way of communicating in a modern world, especially if you depend on translating verbatim...

WilyCoyote · 09-08-2013 01:26PM

For the same reason that nobody speaks Latin. It's a dying language and people should leave it to die with dignity. And akin to propping up a dying company or bank. Let the people have a say, not a bunch of idiotic, deluded self-centered Gaelgoirs. As for the translation of all legal/government papers? Get shot of that rule. This whole rigmarole about culture is a load of cobblers. It handicaps students that have to spend hours at it - a futile exercise that results in no gain.
Can anyone explain what good this language does to the future career of a student.
Why not give students a choice of, maybe three of the most widely spoken languages on planet earth. That way, they and Ireland will benefit.
And leave Peig where she always wanted to be - undisturbed in the bog, but 6' under this time.

An Coilean · 09-08-2013 01:47PM

The only ones deluding themselves are those that believe that Irish is either dead or dying.;)

Foxtrol · 09-08-2013 02:11PM

An Coilean wrote: »

The only ones deluding themselves are those that believe that Irish is either dead or dying.;)

That's why the thread is titled 'Why does everybody speak Irish?' :rolleyes:

Iwasfrozen · 09-08-2013 02:14PM

An Coilean wrote: »

The only ones deluding themselves are those that believe that Irish is either dead or dying.;)

The only ones deluding themselves are those exposing language regression. ;-)

Grayson · 09-08-2013 03:08PM

epluribusunum wrote: »

I would hope they would be interested. And I think they would if they grew up with it in the house and not learning it in school.

I do not understand how this would infringe upon civil rights at all. It is written in your Constitution, and children have to learn a language so why not Irish? Nothing to do with rights in my opinion.

I know you believe the Constitution part is pointless, but you are arguing that reinstating your national language from your Constitution would inflict upon the rights of the nation's citizens. This makes no sense at all.

Because a couple of percent of people speak it regularly? These arguments about norwegians and italians are some of the dumbest I've ever heard.

Italians grow up speaking italian. Norwegians grow up speaking norwegian. Irish people grow up speaking english. This is a fact. For the vast, vast number of irish people english is the language spoken in the home, in business and in education. The language of ireland is english. And it doesn't matter what some nationalist put in the coinstitution. The constitution is wrong. And I'm sick of people using the constitution as a fallback argument. There's no point in argueing that it's right because a document says so. It's like arguing that homosexuality is wrong because it says so in Genesis.

Italians and norwegians speak english as a secondary language because it helps them communicate with the world outside their country. It serves a practical purpose in communication. Learning irish in school does not have the same benefits. It is not taught as a primary language the way norwegian or italian is. This is because it is not a primary language. It is not taught as a secondary language the way english is taught in Norway and italy. But it does not help one communicate with the greater world. Or even with the population of their country since only a few percent are fluent. The child will grow up and english will be the primary language that they will use in work or in their social lives. For nearly all, they will lose the ability to have any meaningful conversation in Irish by the time they are 25. Most will never have the need to converse in it or find it necessary to attempt to.

BognarRegis · 09-08-2013 05:17PM

An Coilean wrote: »

The only ones deluding themselves are those that believe that Irish is either dead or dying.;)

And those who are committed to the Reinstatement of Irish as the Common Language of Ireland.

old hippy · 09-08-2013 05:21PM

An Coilean wrote: »

The only ones deluding themselves are those that believe that Irish is either dead or dying.;)

Sorry, I meant "in terminal decline".

Birroc · 09-08-2013 05:29PM

I think being honest that the Irish language sounds awful for the most part. Except when sexy TG4 weather girls are speaking it.
Otherwise it does appear a very "flemmy" language i.e. you have to chew the cud and recirculate your spit/flem to be a real "Gaelgóir". I don't really care if it thrives or dies over the next few decades as long as I am not forced to use it.

BognarRegis · 09-08-2013 06:03PM

Birroc wrote: »

as I am not forced to use it.

Not yet.

Birroc · 09-08-2013 06:10PM

BognarRegis wrote: »

Not yet.

Ah let them try. It might be "cool" to learn it these days but let them try to make it "mandatory" outside school and there would be war.

Seannew1 · 09-08-2013 06:36PM

The problems lie in the way it's taught, spanning right back to the 1920's when a serious attempt was made from preventing the language going into complete oblivion. Another problem is the laziness and negative attitude of people, which is usually brought about from parents. It's a sorry case because as a fluent speaker I feel really proud that I can speak the language and I know of countless people who'd also love to speak it.

epluribusunum · 09-08-2013 06:54PM

Okay, can people stop saying "we grow up learning it"? I understand this, I lived there. We are past this point. We were past it after reading the thread title. I speak 3 languages and English is the second I learned. I am sure there are others on this thread with a similar background.

The point I am making, that people such as TONYEH are refuting, is that the Irish can learn English as a second language. Why?

Because as mentioned multiple times, English is much easier to learn than Irish as a second language. I took 3 Irish classes for fun, knowing I would not commit to it, and thought it was hard and although I did not really try to learn it I can guarantee it would be harder for an English speaking person to learn Irish than the opposite. English is everywhere, but Irish is just in a classroom. It is much harder to learn a language solely in a classroom, you need to put in the hours. But you have it the opposite so that is why learning Irish is hard for you, of course you will not be good at it if you just learn it in school.

The only question is why would you not want to reinstate your language?

Well, this could be done once you get a fluent generation of adults. Kids would speak it at home and be exposed to it before school.

But why?

I do not know, that is your.choice as a nation. But I do know it could be done. I really do not see a reason why you would object to having your own language though.

J_E · 09-08-2013 07:07PM

Are you seriously suggesting we make Irish a primary language over English? That's not just an impossibility, it's insane.

An Coilean wrote: »

The only ones deluding themselves are those that believe that Irish is either dead or dying.

Yikes. Really?

epluribusunum · 09-08-2013 07:09PM

Grayson wrote: »

Because a couple of percent of people speak it regularly? These arguments about norwegians and italians are some of the dumbest I've ever heard.

Italians grow up speaking italian. Norwegians grow up speaking norwegian. Irish people grow up speaking english. This is a fact. For the vast, vast number of irish people english is the language spoken in the home, in business and in education. The language of ireland is english. And it doesn't matter what some nationalist put in the coinstitution. The constitution is wrong. And I'm sick of people using the constitution as a fallback argument. There's no point in argueing that it's right because a document says so. It's like arguing that homosexuality is wrong because it says so in Genesis.

Italians and norwegians speak english as a secondary language because it helps them communicate with the world outside their country. It serves a practical purpose in communication. Learning irish in school does not have the same benefits. It is not taught as a primary language the way norwegian or italian is. This is because it is not a primary language. It is not taught as a secondary language the way english is taught in Norway and italy. But it does not help one communicate with the greater world. Or even with the population of their country since only a few percent are fluent. The child will grow up and english will be the primary language that they will use in work or in their social lives. For nearly all, they will lose the ability to have any meaningful conversation in Irish by the time they are 25. Most will never have the need to converse in it or find it necessary to attempt to.

You are not making the right argument in correspondence to what I am saying though. I am saying that Norway and Italy can speak English as a second language, along with most other nations. So why would Ireland be any different? I am saying that Ireland would be able to learn English as a second language. I am not saying that learning Irish as a second language is as easy as learning English as a second language. This is not dumb, but common sense to most people.

I am not saying that the Constitution is the reason you would reinstate it. I said that "forcing Irish down our tongues" as one poster put it- would not be infringing on the citizens' civil rights given that it is written in the Constitution of the citizens. And I am not saying to force it either, what I am saying is that it could be reinstated and you could learn Irish at home and English abroad.

epluribusunum · 09-08-2013 07:12PM

Cydoniac wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting we make Irish a primary language over English? That's not just an impossibility, it's insane.

Yikes. Really?

Yes I am. It is not impossible nor implausible actually.

Why would it be insane? That is the point I am getting at. Why would you reject having a national language and knowing English as a second? This is what I wanted to find out.

Christy42 · 09-08-2013 07:16PM

How would you do that? Mandate it is spoken in the home seems rather totalitarian. Most people are most comfortable with English so that will be spoken in the home. It would take a very long time to change that. I have nothing against the Irish language, I just don't know why I should be forced to speak it. Do I wish I could speak it? Kinda. I know there are classes I could take if I was dedicated enough but honestly if I am going to spend time and money on learning a language (which is not generally something I enjoy doing) I will find it hard to justify not learning more widely spoken.

Capercaille · 09-08-2013 07:34PM

Seannew1 wrote: »

The problems lie in the way it's taught, spanning right back to the 1920's when a serious attempt was made from preventing the language going into complete oblivion. Another problem is the laziness and negative attitude of people, which is usually brought about from parents. It's a sorry case because as a fluent speaker I feel really proud that I can speak the language and I know of countless people who'd also love to speak it.

When it comes to learning second languages Irish people are next to useless! How many people who learnt French/German/Spainish in school can converse in that language? From the people I know hardly any. The same goes for Irish. Laziness is a major problem (IMO).

Aineoil · 09-08-2013 07:35PM

old hippy wrote: »

I'd love to learn it but I am too lazy and long in the tooth to do so. As dead/dying languages go, it's one of the loveliest to hear. My niece speaks it better than I do but she goes to one of those Gaeilscoiles.

I can get by in French, mind. And I'll be brushing up on the Japanese for the approaching early retirement over there

This is so refreshing. I love your attitude and I'm not being sarcastic. You are very practical.:)

Foxtrol · 09-08-2013 08:00PM

Seannew1 wrote: »

The problems lie in the way it's taught, spanning right back to the 1920's when a serious attempt was made from preventing the language going into complete oblivion. Another problem is the laziness and negative attitude of people, which is usually brought about from parents. It's a sorry case because as a fluent speaker I feel really proud that I can speak the language and I know of countless people who'd also love to speak it.

I'd be proud if I could speak Chinese and doing so would be far more beneficial to me in the real world than Irish ever could. If people want to learn Irish for sentimental or other reasons I’ve nothing against them but the current way it’s rammed down people’s throats doesn’t help anyone and is a big reason why there’s so much push back against it by a large proportion of the population.

The_Conductor · 09-08-2013 08:38PM

The_Gatsby wrote: »

Why is it that people in Ireland start learning Irish at the age of 5 and most never learn to speak it fluently? In Europe they do pretty much the same with English and most Europeans can hold a decent conversation in English.

Is it the way Irish is taught? I didn't grow up in Ireland so I'm curious to know why so many people seem to have difficulty with it, given that it's taught at such a young age.

I can speak as happily in Irish or German, as I can in English. I've worked exclusively in all 3 at various stages. Yes- there is an issue with the way Irish is taught in Ireland- were it taught in a similar manner to French or German- with modern teaching mechanisms- I'm certain it would be a hell of a lot healthier as a language than it now is.

The flipside of the coin is there are now more Irish language primary and secondary schools who teach all subjects through Irish- than there have ever been. The Dublin region has more people with gaeilge liofa, than Connemara- and very few of them are from traditional Gaeltacht areas. So- yes- there is an issue with the way Irish is taught in most Irish schools- but Irish as a primary language, has never been healthier than now.

Why can nobody speak Irish?

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