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Any plans for new reservoirs?

  • 30-07-2013 10:00am
    #1
    ForiegnNational
    Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭


    With the recent "drought" (you remember, just before the flash floods), why is nobody suggesting the building of new reservoirs?

    Not only could they supply national needs, but I believe there is a market for exporting water. Not just spring water (aka Evian), but large scale water trading (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_trading).

    Water is often referred to as "blue gold", so it seems with our natural resources, it is bizarre we can barely supply our own needs, let alone commercialise this fantastic natural resource.

    Just a thought...


Comments

  • #2
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Shipping water isn't cost affective, it's too heavy and cheap to ship from an Island. But give it a few years and it may be more cost affective.

    There's plans to divert water from the Shannon to a huge reservoir in the Bog of Allen to cover the shortages in Dublin.

    IMO it'd be better to spend money on fixing our leaking pipes before pouring more water into the ground.


  • #3
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,522 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    Del2005 wrote: »
    IMO it'd be better to spend money on fixing our leaking pipes before pouring more water into the ground.

    This is the problem, not storage capacity but wastage and leakage rates.
    Far more worthwhile putting the cost of a new reservoir in pipe repair.

    The planned water meters should also aid by reducing usage and allowing slightly better tracking of leaks.


  • #4
    f1dan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭f1dan


    The issue of pipe repair is an interesting one. I recently came across the term 'economic level of leakage' i.e. the point where the cost of fixing leaks outweighs the cost of providing more water. I was told that this could be as high as 50% in rural areas


  • #5
    Alun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,487 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    I remember once when I was on one of the Channel Islands, I saw them repairing water pipes, not by digging them up, but inserting flexible plastic pipes inside the existing pipes. They didn't have to dig up the entire length of the pipeline, only small sections at regular intervals. Seemed like quite a clever solution


  • #6
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,490 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Digging up pipes costs probably €100-200 per metre or more for normal distribution (not transmission) pipes. May be economic if doing it in conjunction with electricity / gas / phone lines, but potentially very expensive.


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  • #7
    Cool Mo D
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Cool Mo D


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    This is the problem, not storage capacity but wastage and leakage rates.
    Far more worthwhile putting the cost of a new reservoir in pipe repair.

    The planned water meters should also aid by reducing usage and allowing slightly better tracking of leaks.

    I think it's easy to say this, but you actually have to do the sums to check if it's the case. It's not always simple to trace exactly where a leak is, and if you have a large number of small leaks in different places, fixing them would be very expensive.

    A lot of leaks may well be quickly fixed when water metering comes into effect, as homeowners are supposed to fix leaks on their own property, but they are hardly likely to do so now, when it costs them nothing to leave it.


  • #8
    theSHU
    Closed Accounts Posts: 197 ✭✭theSHU


    They are planning a new big resevoir at Portarlington to service Dublin etc. It will also be a great water sports amenity just like Blessington Lakes.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/huge-reservoir-will-supply-shannon-water-to-dublin-29440037.html


  • #9
    Pixel Eater
    Registered Users Posts: 486 ✭✭Pixel Eater


    Why isn't there more rain water capture systems in place in our urban areas? The amounts of rain we get buildings could provide a large percentage of their requirements, even it is only for toilets and kitchen appliances (which is the bulk of water usage in any case).

    Would cut down on the soon to be introduced water charges and greatly reduced the dependance on external sources like rivers and reservoirs.

    Seems obvious to me; unless I'm missing something?


  • #10
    oppenheimer1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,084 ✭✭✭oppenheimer1


    Pixel Eater wrote: »
    Why isn't there more rain water capture systems in place in our urban areas? The amounts of rain we get buildings could provide a large percentage of their requirements, even it is only for toilets and kitchen appliances (which is the bulk of water usage in any case).

    Would cut down on the soon to be introduced water charges and greatly reduced the dependance on external sources like rivers and reservoirs.

    Seems obvious to me; unless I'm missing something?
    Rainwater still requires a basic level of treatment even for the most basic of uses, such as washing clothes and flushing toilets. The cost of providing tanks and filtration equipment, in addition to running costs currently exceeds the cost of tap water per metre cubed provided.


  • #11
    Grandeeod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,209 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    Any potential for tapping into underground reservoirs in Ireland?


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  • #12
    Pixel Eater
    Registered Users Posts: 486 ✭✭Pixel Eater


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    Rainwater still requires a basic level of treatment even for the most basic of uses, such as washing clothes and flushing toilets. The cost of providing tanks and filtration equipment, in addition to running costs currently exceeds the cost of tap water per metre cubed provided.

    Really? Even for toilets? I find that extraordinary. Surely though with the impending introduction of water charges it will become more economically viable to do so?

    In any case it's a valuable resource that literally falls from the sky so rain water harvesting makes sense.


  • #13
    Potatoeman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,366 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    Pixel Eater wrote: »
    Really? Even for toilets? I find that extraordinary. Surely though with the impending introduction of water charges it will become more economically viable to do so?

    In any case it's a valuable resource that literally falls from the sky so rain water harvesting makes sense.

    You would need one system for drinking water and another for toilets so double the piping.


  • #14
    Pixel Eater
    Registered Users Posts: 486 ✭✭Pixel Eater


    Potatoeman wrote: »
    You would need one system for drinking water and another for toilets so double the piping.

    That hardly seems like a major obstacle. It's relatively few pipes within the confines of a building compared to hundreds of kms of underground pipes.


  • #15
    markpb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,342 ✭✭✭markpb


    Pixel Eater wrote: »
    That hardly seems like a major obstacle. It's relatively few pipes within the confines of a building compared to hundreds of kms of underground pipes.

    It wouldn't have been a major obstacle thirty years ago, before a significant chunk of the houses and apartments in the country were built. Retrofitting it into existing housing now would be very challenging.


  • #16
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,490 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Fitting a water harvesting tank and connecting it to a toilet system isn't a huge job.

    However, most roofs wouldn't have enough rainfall to cover all toilet usage, so using it for drinking water doesn't arise. Only very basic screening, not necessarily filtering is needed for toilets.

    For a typical 100m2 semi-detached house, you get 50m2 of roof. With 700-1500mm per year of rainfall in most of the country, that is 35-75m3 per house of water per year. In theory, this equates to 3,000-10,000 flushes per year (dual flush toilets would mean you would get more). A household of 4 would use perhaps 10,000-12,000 flushes per year. However, given that you will have periods of no rainfall or excessive rainfall, unless you have a lot of storage, you won't be able to store all the water.


  • #17
    Pixel Eater
    Registered Users Posts: 486 ✭✭Pixel Eater


    Victor wrote: »
    Fitting a water harvesting tank and connecting it to a toilet system isn't a huge job.

    However, most roofs wouldn't have enough rainfall to cover all toilet usage, so using it for drinking water doesn't arise. Only very basic screening, not necessarily filtering is needed for toilets.

    For a typical 100m2 semi-detached house, you get 50m2 of roof. With 700-1500mm per year of rainfall in most of the country, that is 35-75m3 per house of water per year. In theory, this equates to 3,000-10,000 flushes per year (dual flush toilets would mean you would get more). A household of 4 would use perhaps 10,000-12,000 flushes per year. However, given that you will have periods of no rainfall or excessive rainfall, unless you have a lot of storage, you won't be able to store all the water.

    Nonetheless it would make sense to have it as standard in new builds especially apartment blocks. Even if it could not cover the total water requirements it'll still reduced the amount that is pumped in.


  • #18
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,490 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Pixel Eater wrote: »
    Nonetheless it would make sense to have it as standard in new builds especially apartment blocks. Even if it could not cover the total water requirements it'll still reduced the amount that is pumped in.
    While it might make a system more practical, realise that apartments tend to have much less roof area per apartment than houses.

    And there will be a row on how to share out the water. :)


  • #19
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,483 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Cookie_Monster wrote: »
    This is the problem, not storage capacity but wastage and leakage rates.
    Far more worthwhile putting the cost of a new reservoir in pipe repair.

    The planned water meters should also aid by reducing usage and allowing slightly better tracking of leaks.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12161393
    "Meters typically reduce water consumption by 10%."

    10% isn't a lot considering how much it's going to cost

    it will be a very log time before water metering will pay for anything other thant the water meters themselves.


  • #20
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12161393

    10% isn't a lot considering how much it's going to cost

    it will be a very log time before water metering will pay for anything other thant the water meters themselves.

    Metering will cut out a lot more than that if the figures released by Galway City Council, who put average consumption at 495l/day, are anything to go by. They identified 18 properties with a combined usage of 27.5 million gallons per year (123.75m litres) - working out at a daily average of just under 19,000l/day.

    Using census figures for occupied dwellings, fixing those 18 properties alone reduces the average consumption in the city to about 440 litres per day, which is a 10% drop. This is before we get to changed attitudes about how water is used.


  • #21
    Todd Toddington III
    Registered Users Posts: 605 ✭✭✭Todd Toddington III


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    Rainwater still requires a basic level of treatment even for the most basic of uses, such as washing clothes and flushing toilets. The cost of providing tanks and filtration equipment, in addition to running costs currently exceeds the cost of tap water per metre cubed provided.

    I really really doubt this, especially for flushing toilets considering the effluent ends up being treated (or should be at any rate) at the outflow.

    Edit: on second reading you said basic treatment like filtering which I agree would be needed. I was in new Zealand a few years back and a lot of houses in small towns had water harvesting systems. Surely it would make economic sense for the provision of grants like for solar panels etc for the installation of systems


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  • #22
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Alun wrote: »
    I remember once when I was on one of the Channel Islands, I saw them repairing water pipes, not by digging them up, but inserting flexible plastic pipes inside the existing pipes. They didn't have to dig up the entire length of the pipeline, only small sections at regular intervals. Seemed like quite a clever solution

    My street (in Ballsbridge) had this done a few years ago, and meters fitted. We have not been given any results but a few houses had leaks fixed following this. No attempt was made to co-ordinate work with gas or electricity. Gas did a similar job on the gas mains.

    The new pipe gave us better quality supply (both cleaner water and higher pressure) as there was 50% silt in the pipe.

    The water work was carried out by Anglia Water.


  • #23
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,483 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Metering will cut out a lot more than that if the figures released by Galway City Council, who put average consumption at 495l/day, are anything to go by. They identified 18 properties with a combined usage of 27.5 million gallons per year (123.75m litres) - working out at a daily average of just under 19,000l/day.

    Using census figures for occupied dwellings, fixing those 18 properties alone reduces the average consumption in the city to about 440 litres per day, which is a 10% drop. This is before we get to changed attitudes about how water is used.
    That's just people taking the píss

    Why should the entire country have to spend hundreds of millions on meters, labour, and interest payments because of a very small number of people. I'd be shocked if there wasn't already a legal remedy that the council could use against them.
    He said it was unfair that some homeowners could be using so much water, and causing pressure problems in neighbouring properties

    How much did it cost the council to find those leaks ?
    Did it cost less than installing a meter in every single property ??

    In the UK they have a simplier system for the roll out - you get a water bill, and if you feel it's too much you have the option of getting a meter , and I'm not sure that if the council think your bill is too low they can put a meter in. So it targets those who benefit most rather than a blanket rollout.


  • #24
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    That's just people taking the píss

    Not necessarily, a few of the addresses were for people that would have had just pathways on front of the door, so no soggy lawns etc to tip them off that there's a problem with their property. The same kind of findings were made a few years ago in dublin.
    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    How much did it cost the council to find those leaks ?
    Did it cost less than installing a meter in every single property ??

    The way it was done in Galway was to ensure that a mains was working properly (as close as possible to 0 leakage), then meter the houses. IIRC last year, including capital works, GCC spent 4.5m on the water network (which could include long term costs like the treatment plant that had to be put in a few years back).


  • #25
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    That's just people taking the píss

    Why should the entire country have to spend hundreds of millions on meters, labour, and interest payments because of a very small number of people. I'd be shocked if there wasn't already a legal remedy that the council could use against them.


    How much did it cost the council to find those leaks ?
    Did it cost less than installing a meter in every single property ??

    In the UK they have a simplier system for the roll out - you get a water bill, and if you feel it's too much you have the option of getting a meter , and I'm not sure that if the council think your bill is too low they can put a meter in. So it targets those who benefit most rather than a blanket rollout.

    Commercial rates in Dublin work like that. A fixed rate for premises without meters and a volume charge for premises with a meter. I assume meters are fitted to premises that consume above a standard amount. Fitting a meter would give rise to a smaller bill for low users.


  • #26
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,483 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    antoobrien wrote: »
    The way it was done in Galway was to ensure that a mains was working properly (as close as possible to 0 leakage), then meter the houses. IIRC last year, including capital works, GCC spent 4.5m on the water network (which could include long term costs like the treatment plant that had to be put in a few years back).
    So they are spending less than 4m in a normal year ?

    27857 Households in Galway http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=CNA33.asp&TableName=Number+of+private+households+and+persons+in+private+households+in+each+Province+,+County+and+City&StatisticalProduct=DB_CN

    At a cost of €500 per meter that's going to cost nearly €14 million not counting interest payments.

    If that saves 10% water and that somehow magically translates into a 10% cost reduction on maintenance (lots of fixed costs, esp. wages) then it would take 35 years to pay for the meters out of the savings. :mad:

    Just being fattened up for privatisation IMHO



    Oh BTW the property tax is already raising over three million a year in Galway City
    "This equates to just over three million euro in payments of the tax and three point nine million in declared LPT."



    On the grand scale of things the Bord Na Mona reservoir which will supply one third of the population will cost ~ €470m
    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/huge-reservoir-will-supply-shannon-water-to-dublin-29440037.html

    The water meters will cost €539m

    The cost of metering is higher than the cost of fixing the problems that metering is supposed to reduce


  • #27
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,490 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    At a cost of €500 per meter that's going to cost nearly €14 million not counting interest payments.
    Where is this number coming from?

    Is there an official number?


  • #28
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,483 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Victor wrote: »
    Where is this number coming from?

    Is there an official number?
    The media is running with €539

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/roll-out-of-water-meters-starts-at-house-in-maynooth-1.1488410
    At 27,000 meters per month, the three-year time frame to introduce water charges for all households will cost €539 million.

    ...

    A spokesman for the Department of Environment disagreed with Ms Coppinger’s figures and said domestic consumption was estimated at 39 per cent of water use while the amount lost to leakage was 41 per cent, based on the Local Authority Service Indicators Report from 2011.


    ...

    According to Irish Water contractors must reinstate the ground outside properties within a maximum of 10 working days, otherwise they will not be paid.


  • #29
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,490 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    The media is running with €539

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/roll-out-of-water-meters-starts-at-house-in-maynooth-1.1488410
    The number mentioned is €539 million, not €539.

    Those numbers are confused. 27,000 per month adds to 972,000. elsewhere is says more than a million. Census 2011 says there are about 1,654,208 households (not exactly the same as the number of residential units) and a few hundred thousand business premises.


  • #30
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,483 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Victor wrote: »
    The number mentioned is €539 million, not €539.
    DoMXbqp.jpg


    Those numbers are confused. 27,000 per month adds to 972,000. elsewhere is says more than a million. Census 2011 says there are about 1,654,208 households (not exactly the same as the number of residential units) and a few hundred thousand business premises.
    IIRC there was a figure of ~ €830 per install when interest payments / cost of financing were taken into account

    Yes the numbers are all over the shop , that's why I said €500 each
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/home-owners-to-pay-500-water-meter-bill-238088.html


    we are back to this again
    http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/tag/water/
    A basic water meter costs €60, a fancy one €150. (The government appears to have picked the latter model.) An experienced plumber can fit a meter in 15 minutes or so. This is not terribly expensive, but many people are hard-up.
    Wireless meters have security vulnerabilities and don't work as reliablly as they would like, so it's not going to save all the labour on reading as they will still have to inspect many of the meters rather than a drive by


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  • #31
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,042 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Wireless meters have security vulnerabilities and don't work as reliablly as they would like, so it's not going to save all the labour on reading as they will still have to inspect many of the meters rather than a drive by
    Why do you think wireless meters have security vulnerabilities? This would be the same for any type of meter, ie. someone can tamper with the meter regardless of whether it is wireless or not. Not sure why you think they are not reliable either, its pretty basic radio technology. And Automated Meter Reading (AMR) technology will save a lot of money, obstructions on meter boxes, such as parked cars, have the potential to be very costly in terms of sending personnel out again to return to properties which were visited already with no guarantee the meter will be read the second time.


  • #32
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,483 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    http://venturebeat.com/2011/08/06/hacking-water-meters-is-easier-than-it-should-be/
    If people want to reduce their water bills, they could hack the sensors. They could also increase the bill paid by a neighbor they don’t like, or evade restrictions on the amount of water used. And since the usage of water indicates the presence or absence of the homeowner, the hacked water meters can be used for surveillance purposes.

    Slides
    http://www.slideshare.net/the_netlocksmith/defcon-2011-vulnerabilities-in-wireless-water-meters#btnNext

    Full talk
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Xy9If6WTcA


  • #33
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    So they are spending less than 4m in a normal year ?

    Nope. I said between 4 & 5. Here are the exact figures for fresh water taken from the 2013 city council budget:
    Water Plants & Networks - €4,813,069
    Service Support Costs - €1,124,160

    The plant in Terryland is operated by the city but supplies water the the county, so I don't know if that is the total cost (and I don't have the co co budget too hand_)
    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    27857 Households in Galway
    .....
    At a cost of €500 per meter that's going to cost nearly €14 million not counting interest payments.

    You're forgetting businesses - who currently pay the €11m total cost of water provision and waste water treatment in Galway city.
    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    If that saves 10% water and that somehow magically translates into a 10% cost reduction on maintenance (lots of fixed costs, esp. wages) then it would take 35 years to pay for the meters out of the savings. :mad:

    Not really no, because IW will take over all the costs of water provision. So it will take over the 5.9m total cost from Galway. What's not clear to me is if it is also supposed to be taking over the waste water treatment (4.7m).

    The private houses are paying for 2-3 years total provision of water to the city, or just less than 1.5 years - where they have not paid water rates before.
    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    Oh BTW the property tax is already raising over three million a year in Galway City

    Good that reduces the €41m difference in income and expenditure that rates have to cover (rates which are never collected in full).
    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »
    On the grand scale of things the Bord Na Mona reservoir which will supply one third of the population will cost ~ €470m

    That joke? When the water was most needed there were water restrictions in the areas served by the areas that they wish to "drain" to flood the bog to make the resevoir. Oops, looks like the eco nuts didn't do their sums again.

    Dublin's problem isn't storage it's production. During the hot spell water usage went up 30m litres per day in Dublin, where they produce 500ml. That would be easily covered by the 10% usage reduction you speak of from metering.


  • #34
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

    Wireless meters have security vulnerabilities and don't work as reliablly as they would like, so it's not going to save all the labour on reading as they will still have to inspect many of the meters rather than a drive by


    My house has a meter installed. [It was obviously a test area when they replaced the water pipes.]

    There is a white box (two actually) that monitor the meters all the time. These, as far as I know, relay real-time information back to base. This allows monitoring use and can detect leaks. If a meter is tampered with, this will be known straight away. No drive by readings, we live in an age of constant monitoring and instant communication.


  • #35
    petronius
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭petronius


    I believe it has been negligent of the Water Authorities not investing in metrics on the water system to identify where leaks occur
    If they identify where leakages/water loss occurs they could reduce the amount of treated water they have to produce.
    Meaning that it would be cheaper and we wouldnt need the shannon- dublin scheme

    I recall listening to a speech where a conservationist said Ireland has the highest quality of water used to flush toilets - i dont know how feasiable it is to have a dual system of treated and non-treated water(collected rainwater) but that sounds more expensive than many other measures
    but again maybe households which invest in water collection systems for use for lavatory water should get subsidies from government since it would require less water to be treated and delivered


  • #36
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    petronius wrote: »
    I believe it has been negligent of the Water Authorities not investing in metrics on the water system to identify where leaks occur
    If they identify where leakages/water loss occurs they could reduce the amount of treated water they have to produce.
    Meaning that it would be cheaper and we wouldnt need the shannon- dublin scheme

    I recall listening to a speech where a conservationist said Ireland has the highest quality of water used to flush toilets - i dont know how feasiable it is to have a dual system of treated and non-treated water(collected rainwater) but that sounds more expensive than many other measures
    but again maybe households which invest in water collection systems for use for lavatory water should get subsidies from government since it would require less water to be treated and delivered

    I would think a greater problem is not segregating sewage waste from storm water run off. If the sewage system was made secure so that floods/storms did not cause mixing of the two, then floods would be far less damaging. It is the lumpy water that causes the damage as infections and smells are next to impossible to clean up.

    It is the leaks that waste water, not flushing toilets. What percentage of water is flushed down the loo? (Compared to the 50% leaked).


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  • #37
    petronius
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭petronius


    I agree sewage should be better sealed off from run off where it is possible.

    And 50% loss in a system is scandalous - I mean there has to be a percentage which evaporates and gets lost by leaks but 50% how can an organisation justify that.

    Of course there should be cross planning between utilities, Gas, Electric, Telecoms, Board of Works, Road dev. etc. so as there is less disruption to roads from water and utility works and also where there is common openings -
    Like whats the point in one month the ESB digging up a road, and then resurfacing it only for the water guys to dig it up the following month

    Some european cities only allow city road works occur at Night! I think this is something which should be looked at. Some european cities work on roads with tram lines occur when the trams are scheduled to finish - no stopping the tram service for a day for road works etc.


  • #38
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The neighbours had the gas co dig a big hole in front of my house and exposed my water main which needed to be replaced. I called the water people and they said that they could not touch it while the road was open otherwise they would have to pay 50% of the cost of opening and closing the hole, which was a lot for all they would have done.

    Later the gas company dug up the whole road and renewed the gas main. The following year the water crowd dug up the whole road and replaced the water main. The electricity needs doing now.

    Great system.


  • #39
    petronius
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭petronius


    This is one of the great frustrations with utilities
    The Board of Works or City council should broker the utility companies who are working on the roads etc. and coordinate developments and road closures

    Agreed - The idea of charging 1/2 the price for to one company who just want to do a minor measure when the surface is open is pathetic. They will only have to come back and open up the small portion they need to access..

    As a cyclist I have been on cycle lane which have been butchered by multiple roadworks, with token resurfacing. And during roadworks the cycle lane is the first thing to be sacrificed as if it doesnt matter.


  • #40
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    petronius wrote: »
    I believe it has been negligent of the Water Authorities not investing in metrics on the water system to identify where leaks occur
    If they identify where leakages/water loss occurs they could reduce the amount of treated water they have to produce.

    They need meters to find where the water is leaking. At the moment they know how much they are treating but have no way of knowing where it's being used the most. They don't need meters on every house but we do need to pay for water so they are solving 2 issues with the one meter
    petronius wrote: »
    Meaning that it would be cheaper and we wouldnt need the shannon- dublin scheme

    IIRC the Dublin water shortage has nothing to do with leaking pipes it's a lack of suitable sources, especially on the North side
    petronius wrote: »
    I recall listening to a speech where a conservationist said Ireland has the highest quality of water used to flush toilets - i dont know how feasiable it is to have a dual system of treated and non-treated water(collected rainwater) but that sounds more expensive than many other measures
    but again maybe households which invest in water collection systems for use for lavatory water should get subsidies from government since it would require less water to be treated and delivered

    They will be getting a subside as they won't have to pay as much as their neighbour, who doesn't have a rainwater capture system, for water. Retrofitting white and gray water systems to current homes isn't really doable, but they could change the building regs to make all new builds dual water.


  • #41
    petronius
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 849 ✭✭✭petronius


    If you are losing 50% of what you produce then surely it is a factor in shortage.

    Metrics on the water system (and it should have been done and should be done irrespective of if we introduce domestic water charges) would surely help identify where loss occurs

    Dual water systems well public, educational and community buildings should in future be obliged to have dual systems, and retrofitting where buildings are being upgraded

    Apartment blocks would also a good example where dual systems could be implemented - single water collection system on the roof (topped up from water network in times of drought) - and would give those annual charges residents are laden with could be justified for the mgmt company looking after it


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  • #42
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,490 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    petronius wrote: »
    Apartment blocks would also a good example where dual systems could be implemented - single water collection system on the roof (topped up from water network in times of drought) - and would give those annual charges residents are laden with could be justified for the mgmt company looking after it
    Multi-storey buildings do less well from rainwater collection as there is less roof per dwelling / resident.


  • #43
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Victor wrote: »
    Multi-storey buildings do less well from rainwater collection as there is less roof per dwelling / resident.

    But more residents/dwellings to pay for the infrastructure.


  • #44
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    But more residents/dwellings to pay for the infrastructure.

    There's no point in altering a building if it doesn't improve the situation, that's wasting resources that could be better used elsewhere.


  • #45
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,864 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Del2005 wrote: »
    There's no point in altering a building if it doesn't improve the situation, that's wasting resources that could be better used elsewhere.

    Yes, but adding a water butt at the end of a down pipe is not altering the building.


  • #46
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Yes, but adding a water butt at the end of a down pipe is not altering the building.

    How does the water get from the butt into the units in the building and then into the 1 or more bathrooms they each have?

    I think someone already posted in this thread that the average house doesn't have a big enough roof area to catch enough rainwater to be used in a gray water system, so how will a building with several homes be able to catch enough?

    We can't change what's built, but any new builds or major alterations should be forced by planning or building regs to have dual water systems installed.


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