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Irish Rail personnel management (Split from Dublin Bus strike thread)

  • 04-08-2013 02:47PM
    #1
    Infini
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,665 ✭✭✭


    smellmepower wrote: »
    Will just mean worse working conditions for drivers as the big company's who tender for the routes try to bleed every last cent out of the services to the detriment of passengers and staff.The recent BBC documentary about TFL bus drivers highlighted this.

    Loads of unnecessary clerical staff applying pressure to already over stressed frontline workers and not enough drivers or buses.

    This is what its like in Irish Rail atm many stations are unmanned atm because they want more "ticket checkers" out giving people without tickets fined even at the cost of having stations across the place unmanned. They want machines to take in the money (just wait till the knackers hit a bunch of them at once) instead of having someone there to look after wheelchair users, cleaning the place and looking after customers/selling tickets. Staff levels are so bad that some depo's have bare minimum staff to cover essential positions while others are being left unmanned most of the day (heard Killiney is gonna be left permenantly unmanned because bray hasnt got the staff anymore to man it).

    Unlikely the luas will be affected they are a private company after all but Irish Rail could strike as its always the drivers and depotworkers made to take cuts while management seemingly have no problem making up jobs for themselves.


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Comments

  • #2
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,287 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    Infini2 wrote: »
    This is what its like in Irish Rail atm many stations are unmanned atm because they want more "ticket checkers" out giving people without tickets fined even at the cost of having stations across the place unmanned. They want machines to take in the money (just wait till the knackers hit a bunch of them at once) instead of having someone there to look after wheelchair users, cleaning the place and looking after customers/selling tickets. Staff levels are so bad that some depo's have bare minimum staff to cover essential positions while others are being left unmanned most of the day (heard Killiney is gonna be left permenantly unmanned because bray hasnt got the staff anymore to man it).

    Unlikely the luas will be affected they are a private company after all but Irish Rail could strike as its always the drivers and depotworkers made to take cuts while management seemingly have no problem making up jobs for themselves.

    Nice to see a fellow member of Irish Rail staff here. It's pretty much the same in the station i work in at the moment. Not enough useful staff on at the right times so customer satisfaction/station cleanliness/etc. suffers.

    The backroom staff are considerably better paid and have shorter contract hours. My contract hours per week are 48, our head clerks are 36 and she gets paid about €500 more than me per week. If she works overtime she gets paid double which is something we haven't had for more than a decade. In fact, she earns more than our station manager and she can't so much as wave off a train or hand wind a set of malfunctioning points. Oh, an the clerical pension is worth roughly 3 times what ours is but they wouldn't let us join it back in the 90s. The company is full of backroom wasters like this that are tripping over themselves and each other daily to try to look busy. We don't have much freight anymore and Fast Track is dead so these peoples jobs are pretty much gone.

    Management came to us recently within our district and said traffic staff at our location wouldn't be paid for any overtime worked in future but rather we'd be given time in lieu. Not a terrible idea until you realize that at our location and the other locations that our staff cover leave/illness at there is a massive problem with people getting time off because

    *drumroll*

    We don't have enough useful staff to actually cover the running of trains into and out of our stations! Plenty of people to keep seats warm in back offices but they don't appear before 8 in the morning, stay later than 4 and they don't work weekends. Plus they can't/won't do our duties anyway.

    I myself have 50+ days of leave to use up before the end of the year, another two guys i work with have the same and one guy has 140. As part of the cost saving the want to take 25% of those at the end of this year and 50% at the end of 2014. They are trying to take leave off me because i can't use it because they don't have the correct staff to cover my job because most of the people who took the voluntary severance over the past few years were in the traffic end of things.

    This is one of a number of issues that have been going on for years at the company that are only really coming to the forefront now that things are getting tight with regard to staffing levels and overtime.


  • #3
    SandyfordGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 450 ✭✭SandyfordGuy


    Maybe I miss something but how does someone get such high leave?


  • #4
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,287 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    SandyfordGuy wrote: »
    Maybe I miss something but how does someone get such high leave?

    The guy with 140 has a good chunk of it with himself to blame for not taking off much time over the past few years.

    The rest of us around the 40-50 mark have been having difficulty getting anything more than a couple of weeks off a year over the past 3 or 4 years because of staff leaving the company and not being replaced so there's no one to cover us being off so it adds up.


  • #5
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    That is just bad management if that is the case and should never be allowed to happen in a properly run company. In all my years working in the private sector that hasn't happened.

    Normally if you don't take holidays by the end of the year, you can only carry a very small number forward to the next year, usually no more than a handful. If you cannot take your holidays by the end of the year you get paid for them.

    If anyone has anything approaching 100 days, let alone more that they can take in a calendar year, then that doesn't give me much confidence that the company is providing an adequate service for the taxpayer or the passenger.

    I'm not saying it's your fault, but this kind of situation should not be allowed to happen.


  • #6
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,287 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    devnull wrote: »
    That is just bad management if that is the case and should never be allowed to happen in a properly run company. In all my years working in the private sector that hasn't happened.

    Normally if you don't take holidays by the end of the year, you can only carry a very small number forward to the next year, usually no more than a handful. If you cannot take your holidays by the end of the year you get paid for them.

    If anyone has anything approaching 100 days, let alone more that they can take in a calendar year, then that doesn't give me much confidence that the company is providing an adequate service for the taxpayer or the passenger.

    I'm not saying it's your fault, but this kind of situation should not be allowed to happen.

    Agreed, management really haven't got a clue when it comes to the actual running of a 363 day a year, 14+ hour a day roster with the provision of adequate cover in key areas to allow for correct management of leave.

    This stems from the fact that most of them came up through the clerical end of things were there is never a problem getting leave.


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  • #7
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    140 days leave? Madness! Whatever about carrying days to the next year, carrying it over a decade is unreal.


  • #8
    Infini
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,665 ✭✭✭Infini


    SandyfordGuy wrote: »
    Maybe I miss something but how does someone get such high leave?

    Its rolling over from previous years. Some people dont use the days off and others CANT get time off because of lack of cover. Now they're saying you HAVE to take your days before the end of the year (Originally you couldnt carry them over but because people couldnt get a chance to use them for the reasons above they started letting people carry them over until now) or lose a chunk of them.

    This is the biggest problem in the Irish Rail atm because theres ALOT of backend staff that dont have much to do or their jobs have slowly been made obsolete. Theres others that DO do proper work as clerical of course but theres a major imbalance with backend staff drastically outnumbering the front end staff who are the one looking after the passengers. Theres also the fact that theres alot of management in the place and I mean a fair bit more than whats needed. Ive heard of plenty of stories from down the line before of completely new management positions being made up to accomodate certain people.

    I'm laughing in a sense at Varadakar hes a complete muppet, a total mouth with no ideas or understanding of how the public transport sector works and unsuitable for the job. Remember how he insulted the BE drivers during their strike? Congratulations you just waved the red flag at the bulls! Never even heard of the alan guy till now wheres he been hiding all this time?

    As for the Dublin Bus crew dont blame all of them for striking these things come about because of management not listening or having a real idea of how the place works and not actually working with their own staff. Remember at the end of the day it was MANAGEMENT that triggered the strike not the unions they were warned well in advance what would happen if they tried forcing these changes without agreement.

    As for Irish Rail the latest info I've heard of a strike happening there is if the Dublin Bus dispute drags on for over a week so if theyre striking still by next week then theres a good chance of a strike breaking out there too and its not simply a case of just supporting Dublin Bus its because of grievences with the way management run IR as well. A recent attempt at pushing through more cuts to workers in IR was thrown out by a massive majority by every union in the place there simply because they had enough of being hit with cuts to their wages (they got a previous round of cuts through the place only last year as well).

    Noone likes striking but many people are so frustrated and fed up with the way things are being done were feeling its the only way to send a message to both management and the sellout goverment that weve had enough of their messing about and were gonna do something about it. Many complain here some out of frustration others out of ignorance (the what about people without a job argument is one of them) but when you consider 15~20 years ago how bad pay and conditions were in these companies and how long it took to bring them up to a reasonable standard, you really thing staff would let things go back to the way they were?


  • #9
    Heisenberg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,511 ✭✭✭Heisenberg1


    mickydoomsux wrote: »
    Nice to see a fellow member of Irish Rail staff here. It's pretty much the same in the station i work in at the moment. Not enough useful staff on at the right times so customer satisfaction/station cleanliness/etc. suffers.

    The backroom staff are considerably better paid and have shorter contract hours. My contract hours per week are 48, our head clerks are 36 and she gets paid about €500 more than me per week. If she works overtime she gets paid double which is something we haven't had for more than a decade. In fact, she earns more than our station manager and she can't so much as wave off a train or hand wind a set of malfunctioning points. Oh, an the clerical pension is worth roughly 3 times what ours is but they wouldn't let us join it back in the 90s. The company is full of backroom wasters like this that are tripping over themselves and each other daily to try to look busy. We don't have much freight anymore and Fast Track is dead so these peoples jobs are pretty much gone.

    Management came to us recently within our district and said traffic staff at our location wouldn't be paid for any overtime worked in future but rather we'd be given time in lieu. Not a terrible idea until you realize that at our location and the other locations that our staff cover leave/illness at there is a massive problem with people getting time off because

    *drumroll*

    We don't have enough useful staff to actually cover the running of trains into and out of our stations! Plenty of people to keep seats warm in back offices but they don't appear before 8 in the morning, stay later than 4 and they don't work weekends. Plus they can't/won't do our duties anyway.

    I myself have 50+ days of leave to use up before the end of the year, another two guys i work with have the same and one guy has 140. As part of the cost saving the want to take 25% of those at the end of this year and 50% at the end of 2014. They are trying to take leave off me because i can't use it because they don't have the correct staff to cover my job because most of the people who took the voluntary severance over the past few years were in the traffic end of things.

    This is one of a number of issues that have been going on for years at the company that are only really coming to the forefront now that things are getting tight with regard to staffing levels and overtime.

    There are plenty of inefficiencies within the OPS, Per Way, driver grades dept as it stands. You have station controllers that are on comparable salaries as your chief clerks and for what ?? Waving of trains the pension entitlements of those clerks do they not contribute 3 times more than the wages grade staff to there pensions ?


  • #10
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Infini2 wrote: »
    Its rolling over from previous years. Some people dont use the days off and others CANT get time off because of lack of cover. Now they're saying you HAVE to take your days before the end of the year (Originally you couldnt carry them over but because people couldnt get a chance to use them for the reasons above they started letting people carry them over until now) or lose a chunk of them.

    And this is about the only point of yours that I agree with. Any system that allows people to amass that kind of holiday is completely broken, since something like that should be nipped in the bud, by better planning of staff leave and staff cover, and not allowing staff to carry so many days forward, which causes problems for the company later down the line like they have at the moment. They should pay the staff for days not taken like in the private sector, and sort out rostering. I've always thought that Irish Rail was the least well run company out of the three, and nothing I read on here changes my mind.


  • #11
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,736 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Split from: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057003604

    Moderator


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  • #12
    dowlingm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,349 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    The problem in a lot of companies now is an obsession with headcount. More is bad even if the wages bill stays about the same because of less overtime being worked. Consultants are seen as the answer because they don't count as "heads", their pension and benefits are someone else's problem and their cost goes against a different line item in the accounts.

    In Ontario public transport workers do fall under the "sunshine list" which publishes amounts paid above 100000CAD per annum (72500 EUR), which usually results in rage when some ticket office lads working insane overtime go over the top.


  • #13
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,272 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    devnull wrote: »
    And this is about the only point of yours that I agree with. Any system that allows people to amass that kind of holiday is completely broken, since something like that should be nipped in the bud, by better planning of staff leave and staff cover, and not allowing staff to carry so many days forward, which causes problems for the company later down the line like they have at the moment. They should pay the staff for days not taken like in the private sector, and sort out rostering. I've always thought that Irish Rail was the least well run company out of the three, and nothing I read on here changes my mind.

    Some years ago (It may have been 1994) Irish Rail proposed buying unused leave of staff to NBRU and SIPTU. They got agreement of their members to do this and all was well. When it emerged how many staff across the company had months of leave owed let alone weeks, the company backed out as it was going to cost millions. I know of a senior member of staff who "retired" from Irish 3 years ago. He had 11 months of leave owed to him!! My dad had 6 months when he left and some other of his colleagues had as much and more. Good to hear it's been sorted :rolleyes:


  • #14
    spank_inferno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,892 ✭✭✭spank_inferno


    How much does a clerical worker earn in Irish Rail?

    In the private sector its usually 24k - 26k per annum.
    Clerical managers are in the low 30s often.


  • #15
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    spank_inferno wrote: »
    How much does a clerical worker earn in Irish Rail?

    In the private sector its usually 24k - 26k per annum.
    Clerical managers are in the low 30s often.

    Well according to Micky above, the head clerk gets €500/week more than him, so 26k/year more. He's on a 48 hour week so at minimum wage that's 21.5k/year. So the head clerk is on at least 47.5k.


  • #16
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,287 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    Some years ago (It may have been 1994) Irish Rail proposed buying unused leave of staff to NBRU and SIPTU. They got agreement of their members to do this and all was well. When it emerged how many staff across the company had months of leave owed let alone weeks, the company backed out as it was going to cost millions. I know of a senior member of staff who "retired" from Irish 3 years ago. He had 11 months of leave owed to him!! My dad had 6 months when he left and some other of his colleagues had as much and more. Good to hear it's been sorted :rolleyes:

    This came up again recently and it was shot down by the company straight away and we were told it will never happen.

    They can't cover our leave, they won't buy it off us so the solution is to simply take it from us.

    Woeful management.


  • #17
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,287 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    Well according to Micky above, the head clerk gets €500/week more than him, so 26k/year more. He's on a 48 hour week so at minimum wage that's 21.5k/year. So the head clerk is on at least 47.5k.

    She's at the top end of a fairly senior clerical grade so you'll want to keep going a little bit........

    It's shameful stuff for how little she has to do.


  • #18
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    mickydoomsux wrote: »
    She's at the top end of a fairly senior clerical grade so you'll want to keep going a little bit........

    It's shameful stuff for how little she has to do.

    Oh yeah I don't doubt. I didn't want to peg you at a certain salary so just went with the absolute minimum she could be on.


  • #19
    spank_inferno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,892 ✭✭✭spank_inferno


    So then why are union reps not offering reductions in the astounding clerical pay to offset frontline cuts?


  • #20
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    spank_inferno wrote: »
    So then why are union reps not offering reductions in the astounding clerical pay to offset frontline cuts?

    The clerical staff are part of the unions too and they certainly don't want to sacrifice any pay.


  • #21
    spank_inferno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,892 ✭✭✭spank_inferno


    I figured they were part of the union.

    However if their pay is higher, surely the union offers their pay first?


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  • #22
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    spank_inferno wrote: »
    I figured they were part of the union.

    However if their pay is higher, surely the union offers their pay first?

    The staff likely feel if they are being paid more that they are worth more and thus any pay cut should be commensurate across the board. The reps have to represent the whole union, they can't just go and piss off the lads in the back office to suit the other staff.

    At least, that's how I expect it is.


  • #23
    Callan57
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭Callan57


    mickydoomsux wrote: »
    The guy with 140 has a good chunk of it with himself to blame for not taking off much time over the past few years.

    The rest of us around the 40-50 mark have been having difficulty getting anything more than a couple of weeks off a year over the past 3 or 4 years because of staff leaving the company and not being replaced so there's no one to cover us being off so it adds up.

    Could it be that they don't want to take their holidays because they might miss out on lucritive overtime or other noncore payments? ;)
    Anyway, I thought there was a satutory requirement to take your holidays?


  • #24
    tombliboo83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭tombliboo83


    Callan57 wrote: »
    Could it be that they don't want to take their holidays because they might miss out on lucritive overtime or other noncore payments? ;)

    There is no lucrative OT in Irish Rail, OT was payed at the basic rate for all non clerical. OT is now a thing of the past as part of the recent cost containment programme.


  • #25
    Heisenberg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,511 ✭✭✭Heisenberg1


    tombliboo83 wrote: »
    There is no lucrative OT in Irish Rail, OT was payed at the basic rate for all non clerical. OT is now a thing of the past as part of the recent cost containment programme.

    Not true there are still grades within the company That get time and half for Saturday double time on Sunday and treble time on BH.


  • #26
    tombliboo83
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭tombliboo83


    Heisenberg1 wrote: »
    Not true there are still grades within the company That get time and half for Saturday double time on Sunday and treble time on BH.

    Well nobody in my depot has unless of absolute emergency cover is needed. Who is getting time and half??Per way I suspect, certainly not core staff like drivers, shunters, signalmen, ttc's..Our booking office is now closed on Sundays and bank holidays to do away with such double bubble (for clerical)


  • #27
    davidlacey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 416 ✭✭davidlacey


    Heisenberg1 wrote: »
    Not true there are still grades within the company That get time and half for Saturday double time on Sunday and treble time on BH.

    They are ludricous premiums, i'm in the private sector and the most you get is time and a half for sundays and bank holidays! Time and a third for nightshift.... I see alot of the same inefficiencies with Irish Rail as with the company that I work for, one guy in my place took 4 months off of time in lieu after years of not giving it to him. If we are called in there is no such thing as an overtime payment, your lucky to even get paid, time in lieu is the new method of payment, getting it is the tricky part.....


  • #28
    shamwari
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,142 ✭✭✭shamwari


    Just been reading this thread. Can I ask the lads who have rolled over huge amounts of annual leave year on year, what would happen if you all insisted on taking that leave? You've earned it and you're perfectly entitled to it.


  • #29
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    shamwari wrote: »
    Just been reading this thread. Can I ask the lads who have rolled over huge amounts of annual leave year on year, what would happen if you all insisted on taking that leave? You've earned it and you're perfectly entitled to it.

    From citizensinformation.ie
    Taking annual leave
    It is for your employer to decide when annual leave may be taken, but this is subject to a number of conditions. Your employer must take into account your family responsibilities, opportunities for rest and recreation that are available to you and to consult with you (or your union) at least one month before the leave is to be taken. In addition, annual leave should be taken within the appropriate leave year or with your consent, within 6 months of the relevant leave year. Further holding over (also known as carrying-over) of annual leave at your wish is a matter for agreement between you and your employer.

    Even if there is little cover, they should be encouraging them to take the holidays at some stage. In my own job, I'm sometimes too busy to take a long stretch. I chip away at the holidays by taking days here and there.


  • #30
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,287 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    shamwari wrote: »
    Just been reading this thread. Can I ask the lads who have rolled over huge amounts of annual leave year on year, what would happen if you all insisted on taking that leave? You've earned it and you're perfectly entitled to it.

    You'd end up facing disciplinary action for not showing up for work because you'll more than likely be the only person rostered on.

    The cover just isn't there.


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  • #31
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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