Feminist Men

Zulu wrote: »

I guess I'm probably misinterpreting what you mean by "sympathetic to" and "support those who". To me that reads "I don't object to", but "don't actually do" anything. Apologies if that's too harsh a view.

Eitherway though, my salient point stands.

There is a big difference between not objecting to something and supporting it. If I'd meant that I don't object to the furtherance of men's rights, that's what I would have said. What I meant was I support those who work for men's rights, because I'm very aware that there's a need for it in certain areas. So that is what I said.

Zulu wrote: »

Oh sorry, so you are throwing your weight behind mens rights aswell?

Look, I'll be honest, I'm confused by what you are saying. You actively pursue womens rights - I'm getting that much. Do you persue mens rights? If you do, I'm picking you up wrong. Sorry.

Here's the rest of that point for you: "There are good, intelligent and passionate people working hard on men's rights issues." Meaning, just because I don't have the energy, time, or personal experience to be useful to the men's rights movement, doesn't mean that men's rights are going un-championed or ignored.

Hope that clears the confusion up. To be honest, I think there's a bit of selective confusion going on here.

Zulu wrote: »

There is if your actions are working in contrast to theirs!

Which I've clearly stated, they aren't. I can work to further women's rights in areas where they lag behind men's, without trampling on men's rights or taking any rights away from men. To suggest otherwise is to be deliberately obtuse.

Zulu wrote: »

Of course it really depends on what we mean by "support". Is "support" actively campaigning, or is "support" lip service. If it's the former, it's not madness. If it's that latter - then its maddness ...or blind niaevity.

There's a middle ground, and you know it.

Zulu wrote: »

Why?

Because it's way too simplistic, and it suggests that one side can never be brought level with the other without the other having something taken away; which is simply not true.

iwantmydinner wrote: »

And you'd have to ask the media about why things aren't covered by the media.

Because of the in camera rule in Irish courts I would think. Media not allowed talk about it

Tallwall wrote: »

Ok so what have feminists done in Ireland in pursuit of equality when it comes to custody rights and family law?

What have men's rights groups done about the gender pay gap? See, we can all play at this.

Tallwall wrote: »

Ok so what have feminists done in Ireland in pursuit of equality when it comes to custody rights and family law?

Without being able to make specific references, one example I can think of would be feminist writers writing about the problem of bias towards women in custody issues in national papers. A simple search would illustrate.

Since we're firing aggressive questions at each other, apparently, what have you done in pursuit of equality in custody issues?

johnr1 wrote: »

Well first, we'd have to agree that one exists when ALL other aspects of employment are equal, you know, things like, hours/years worked, optional career breaks taken etc, level of responsibility attained....little things like those.

I have yet to see evidence of this. What I hear lots of is "The Menz get moar money" ignoring the fact that the same "menz" (your own expression eariler in the thread) work more.

Have you sought out evidence, at all?

http://www.equality.ie/Files/The%20Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20in%20Ireland.pdf

An extract:

The report finds that the overall wage gap in 2003 was almost 22 per cent. On average men have more years of work experience than women and - among the factors identified here - this is the single biggest contributor to the pay gap. Nevertheless differential experience only accounts for a 3.1 per cent pay gap, or just over 14 per cent of the total. Many other factors - such as a higher incidence of supervisory roles, longer tenure and higher trade union membership among men and a higher incidence of part-time work among women - also widen the gap. The combined effects of broad occupational and sectoral gender segregation contribute 2.8 per cent, accounting for 13 per cent of the overall wage gap. A further interesting finding is that married or cohabiting men enjoy a wage premium which widens the gap. The authors interpret this as reflecting men’s much lower likelihood of having spent time out of the labour market for family reasons. Finally, a gap of 7.8 per cent -
one third of the total - cannot be attributed to any of the factors included in the analysis.

Tallwall wrote: »

Ok so what have feminists done in Ireland in pursuit of equality when it comes to custody rights and family law?

Millicent wrote: »

What have men's rights groups done about the gender pay gap? See, we can all play at this.

August Loose Player wrote: »

I think these last two posts have illustrated the flaw I have been trying to highlight in my posts, that is people working against one another rather than together to achieve a common goal.

Bury the likes of male chauvinism and feminism and work together to create a true equal society.

No, my post was meant to illustrate the fact that "whataboutery" works both ways.

Also, feminism =/= male chauvinism.

CarlDunne1979 wrote: »

What have you done about your hell-bound soul due to lack of repentance? Nothing because it's mythology. That is where the men's rights groups are coming from in relation to the gender pay gap.

I know he's banned now, but for anyone else who hasn't bothered to read iwantmydinner's post, here it is again:

iwantmydinner wrote: »

Have you sought out evidence, at all?

http://www.equality.ie/Files/The%20Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20in%20Ireland.pdf

An extract:

The report finds that the overall wage gap in 2003 was almost 22 per cent. On average men have more years of work experience than women and - among the factors identified here - this is the single biggest contributor to the pay gap. Nevertheless differential experience only accounts for a 3.1 per cent pay gap, or just over 14 per cent of the total. Many other factors - such as a higher incidence of supervisory roles, longer tenure and higher trade union membership among men and a higher incidence of part-time work among women - also widen the gap. The combined effects of broad occupational and sectoral gender segregation contribute 2.8 per cent, accounting for 13 per cent of the overall wage gap. A further interesting finding is that married or cohabiting men enjoy a wage premium which widens the gap. The authors interpret this as reflecting men’s much lower likelihood of having spent time out of the labour market for family reasons. Finally, a gap of 7.8 per cent -
one third of the total - cannot be attributed to any of the factors included in the analysis.

johnr1 wrote: »

Feminism as an ideology is so outdated that it has little relevance in Ireland 2013. The sooner the dinosaurs accept this the better for both sexes.

Yeah, because women don't experience any sexism today and misogyny is extinct....have you actually talked to any women, ever?

johnr1 wrote: »

Feminism as a brand is so damaged that a growing number of women can't identify with it. Any men who feel that they do have imho serious issues around self esteem.

Negative stereotypes about feminism perpetrated by misogynists make some people wary of indentifying as feminists. They simply don't understand what feminism is.

There is a huge amount of aggression from certain people against anyone who so much as mentions the word "feminism." An activist who campaigned to keep at least one woman on UK banknotes has been getting death threats. This happened in the last week, you understand, not in the 1920's. This kind of excessive hostility understandably makes some people wary of saying they're a feminist especially in social or work settings where they are concerned that people will immediately assume they "hate men" or "don't shave their legs" or whatever b0ll0cks they believe about feminists.

And to say that a man who calls himself a feminist has self-esteem issues....:rolleyes: Thats the kind of thing said by people who think there is a war between the sexes and that a male feminist is some kind of traitor to his own "side." Says a lot about how you feel about women. We don't view men as enemies, but you keep claiming that we do. I think psychologists call that "projection."

johnr1 wrote: »

I will not be posting in this thread again.

.

I'm sure you'll be sorely missed.

Morag wrote: »

Actually over the last 2 years I would say the numbers of women calling themselves feminists has risen dramatically and the same with men.

Which is encouraging, if it's true - kind of difficult to gauge. But I have also seen a hell of a lot of outright hostility to women - not just feminists, all women - in the media and especially on the Internet where people feel more free to express their less palatable opinions. And I'm not just talking about idiot children in Youtube comments.

Again that too is difficult to gauge. Is it on the increase or is it just more visible nowadays? I don't know.

But I guess the upside is that having access to the Internet allows more and more people to be exposed to feminism and start to understand more about it, to realise what it is about and what it's not about. It's a chance to dispel some of those myths about feminism that were started by antifeminist voices in the mainstream media and that are still spouted today by the likes of Newt Gingrich and the Daily Mail.

clairefontaine wrote: »

Honestly, I think if a man wants to support women, the best thing he can do is be there for the family when she has to go away for work, stay at work late, or be at home with the kids when they get sick. A man who is fully net grated into his family is IMO the best way to bring about a more fair and balanced world.

This is why we have to move away from partisan ideologies into a more united one centred in families.

*edited to add:

If you are a man, you can't complain about equality while also avoiding the pitfalls of childcare during working hours. Be the one to pick up your child,p when the school calls and says he is sick, take of work for summer holidays to mind your child, go to the school meetings that are on in the middle of the day, tell your boss no you can't make that business trip, you have a child. Because if men and women presume that women take the default positioning these pitfalls, family and work will continue to be a major conflict. And you don't nee an ideology to do this.

What about situations where childcare or domestic labour arrangements aren't an issue?