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new rules on the way boys and girls

1235789

Comments

  • #122
    Tuco88
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,059 ✭✭✭Tuco88


    Best thing now for the Labour party is to get tossed into the tide like the Greens... I'm sure lads are still going to carry on doing work on the side that's obvious, It's some honest guy changing an lighting mcb will get caught/reported and end up in a right mess.

    As many of you are well aware the whole self certification is flawed. Guys can get a cert from anyone, that is if your mad enough to put your name down and sign for anthers guys work untested. Id love to know how many contractor's are actually letting proper time for testing, let alone have a decent Multi-tester?

    As for the EX ares's is another Grey area. I know some contractor's want you to have a compex cert which is a start. I have been on sites where you need a E1WF and Hawke glanding cert, then if there was a push on more lads hired different rules look to apply?

    Are there any other laws clamping down on other trades, So called carpenters doing roofing?


  • #123
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,745 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Tuco88 wrote: »
    As many of you are well aware the whole self certification is flawed.

    I am not a fan of this either, but it is better than nothing. At least someone has to claim to test, stick their neck out and sign a legal document
    Guys can get a cert from anyone, that is if your mad enough to put your name down and sign for anthers guys work untested.

    I would have thought that this does not happen much anymore, I am open to correction.
    As for the EX ares's is another Grey area.

    What part is grey??
    I know some contractor's want you to have a compex cert which is a start.

    Proper order, it is a very specialised area. We insist on all electricians having to complete a recognised 2 or 3 day ATEX training course within the last 2 years.
    I have been on sites where you need a E1WF and Hawke glanding cert,

    We insist on this, it makes sense to me. The course is only 1 or 2 hours long and we run it on site for free. Improperly glanded cables in an ATEX area can cause an explosion resulting in multiple fatalities, loss of employment and serious damage to reputation and property.
    Are there any other laws clamping down on other trades, So called carpenters doing roofing?

    Yes, there are laws that hold people accountable if thier actions through the course of thier work cause injury / death / damage to property.


  • #124
    Tuco88
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,059 ✭✭✭Tuco88


    What part is grey??

    The Qualifications that are needed to work in EX area's and is the employer following it. I'm just saying id rather more focus here, than more jobs for the boys.


    Proper order, it is a very specialised area. We insist on all electricians having to complete a recognised 2 or 3 day ATEX training course within the last 2 years.

    I agree.

    We insist on this, it makes sense to me. The course is only 1 or 2 hours long and we run it on site for free. Improperly glanded cables in an ATEX area can cause an explosion resulting in multiple fatalities, loss of employment and serious damage to reputation and property.

    And it pay's for itself, I remember once having to re-gland a group of light fittings, because of hawke glands being over tightened (you could see the red seal bursting out at the end) wasn't his fault he was new in this area. I would be more worried when a Plant explosion could remove a local village over the littlest of errors, than an Electrician changing an MCB at home.

    Yes, there are laws that hold people accountable if thier actions through the course of thier work cause injury / death / damage to property.[/QUOTE]


    I just looks like a big clamp down on Nixers/Foxer depending what part of the country your from :) to me.


  • #125
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,745 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Tuco88 wrote: »
    What part is grey??

    The Qualifications that are needed to work in EX area's and is the employer following it.

    From my experience it is the client that ensures that E & I crafts people are suitable (in terms of qualifications & experience), not the employer. The client sets out the ctieria and selectes a contractor accordingly, naturally price is important. However it is not the only factor that is considered, training, qualifications and experience are far more important than saveing a few €€ IMHO.

    Remember all work carried out in ATEX areas has to have a 4 page EX Sub-Certificate (issued by the ETCI), cable test record sheet, generally a bonding test record sheet, and test record sheet for all Intrinsically Safe circuits. All of this papaerwork is normally checked and signed off by the client. In addition it would be normal to have loop check sheets for each instrument.

    I have never heard of anyone doing any "nixers" in an ATEX area.

    And it pay's for itself, I remember once having to re-gland a group of light fittings, because of hawke glands being over tightened (you could see the red seal bursting out at the end) wasn't his fault he was new in this area.

    There you go. All for the sake of 1 or 2 hours of training.
    I would be more worried when a Plant explosion could remove a local village over the littlest of errors, than an Electrician changing an MCB at home.

    Sure, but that is a seperate discussion.
    I just looks like a big clamp down on Nixers/Foxer depending what part of the country your from :) to me.

    No argument there.


  • #126
    Tuco88
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,059 ✭✭✭Tuco88


    I agree with you, My point was and I have seen it first hand, An employer would take on un-trained personal in EX area's if a very large scale project was in hand. Now I like to think every little bit of work is all signed off and dandy, but that's not always the case.

    Sorry I did not mean indicate that "nixers" were carried out in EX area's ha, I was just stating id rather see better rules handed down in EX area's over what Mr Rabbit is giving us. I can tell you they would not leave you in to the car park in the UK with such tickets with your C&G 2330.


    What's worse a guy that is not trained to carry out work on example EExe gear putting a great risk on people in the site?

    Or a fellow changing an mcb on the side?

    Anyway I suppose its's soon to be law and a case of like it or lump it.


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  • #127
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,745 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Tuco88 wrote: »
    My point was and I have seen it first hand, An employer would take on un-trained personal in EX area's if a very large scale project was in hand.

    I know, but in general there are good checks and balances in place. From my experience (pharma and petrochemical) as each system is completed by the E & I contractor it is walked down by the E & I engineer(s) who also carefully review all paperwork before signing off.
    Even when all documentation is signed off it does not absolve the E & I contractor form responsibility (and they know this).

    IMHO this type of work (ATEX) is quite well regulated already, for new installations. I accept that there are some older installation that are very poor, these are always going to be hard to deal with. However I have seen several cases where insurance companies are forcing companies to deal with lack of compliance with ET105.
    Sorry I did not mean indicate that "nixers" were carried out in EX area's ha,

    But that is exactly what this new legislation is to deal with, nixers.
    I was just stating id rather see better rules handed down in EX area's over what Mr Rabbit is giving us.

    What rules would you like to see?

    I think the rules that are in place are excellent and very comprehensive. ET105 (National Rules for Electrical Installations in Potentially Explosive Atmospheres, 3rd Edition) was revised quite recently (2011). These regulations are very detailed. IMHO what we have to look at is better enforcement of these rules, not putting more rules in place.
    What's worse a guy that is not trained to carry out work on example EExe gear putting a great risk on people in the site?

    Or a fellow changing an mcb on the side?

    To be honest I would guess that there have been more issues caused by DIYers / chancers / people "with good electrical understanding" / plumbers modifying distribution boards in houses than there has been with qualified electricians without ATEX training installing explosion proof equipment.


  • #128
    mikeoneill893
    Site Banned Posts: 52 ✭✭mikeoneill893


    most of the bad domestic work i've seen over the years has been done by diyers ,plumbers etc.

    jaysus if only i had pictures

    what are non-registered guys allowed to do in a house now?

    is it now illegal to wire a new circuit ,extend circuits etc?


  • #129
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,745 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    mikeoneill893 wrote: »
    what are non-registered guys allowed to do in a house now?

    is it now illegal to wire a new circuit ,extend circuits etc?

    Yes, non-registered people are allowed to do almost nothing beyond changing a light bulb.


  • #130
    mikeoneill893
    Site Banned Posts: 52 ✭✭mikeoneill893


    what exactly is allowed?


  • #131
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,745 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    mikeoneill893 wrote: »
    what exactly is allowed?

    All explained in the "Restricted Works Decision Paper" which can be found here:

    http://www.cer.ie/en/electricity-safety-current-consultations.aspx?article=2935a210-11a9-4d9a-b07c-ddc29eb28d4c


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  • #132
    Cerco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,107 ✭✭✭Cerco


    2011 wrote: »
    Yes, non-registered people are allowed to do almost nothing beyond changing a light bulb.

    Does this spell the end of this forum ?


  • #133
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,745 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Cerco wrote: »
    Does this spell the end of this forum ?

    Why would it ?


  • #134
    mikeoneill893
    Site Banned Posts: 52 ✭✭mikeoneill893


    2011 wrote: »
    Why would it ?

    no nothing wrong with electrical discussion

    but i suspect the clamps will have to be put on threads where diyer's are seeking instructions

    as this will now be illegal 'in the main'


  • #135
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,023 ✭✭✭shedweller


    2011 wrote: »
    Why would it ?
    Because lots of threads here will have "Call an electrician" as the first reply??


  • #136
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,745 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    shedweller wrote: »
    Because lots of threads here will have "Call an electrician" as the first reply??

    Here are a few reasons why it will make no difference:
    1) Many registered electrical contractors use the forum.
    2) The forum is on the Internet and this new legislation only applies to ROI.
    3) Many threads have nothing to do with electrical work that would be deemed restricted works, such as discussion of various products, lighting plans, regulations etc.
    4) Electrical engineers, students and electrical designers use this forum and they tend not to work on their tools.
    5) Many will choose to ignore this legislation.
    6) The Restricted Works only applied to domestic installations, not ATEX or industrial.
    7) There have frequently been "call an electrician" replies up until now, so no change there.

    I hope this provides you with some reassurance :)


  • #137
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,370 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    2011 wrote: »
    Here are a few reasons why it will make no difference:
    1) Many registered electrical contractors use the forum.
    As the poster said, Call an electrician.
    2) The forum is on the Internet and this new legislation only applies to ROI.
    The majority of stuff in threads is Ireland based.
    3) Many threads have nothing to do with electrical work that would be deemed restricted works, such as discussion of various products, lighting plans, regulations etc.
    Yea, you can plan your lighting, but you best get the lad cheaply employed by the registered lad to wire them now.
    4) Electrical engineers, students and electrical designers use this forum and they tend not to work on their tools.
    Its just as well, as now they are unqualified, and incompetent.
    5) Many will choose to ignore this legislation.
    Yea, if an MCB needs fitting here, I think I might just be able to safely do it, despite pat the electrical expert saying otherwise.
    6) The Restricted Works only applied to domestic installations, not ATEX or industrial.
    There is a workshop in my house. Maybe there is a loophole there:)
    7) There have frequently been "call an electrician" replies up until now, so no change there.
    I doubt you will ever post "call an electrician" again, as advice.
    I hope this provides you with some reassurance :)
    How do I go about replacing my burning main switch now?


  • #138
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,745 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Although I know your previous post is a wind up, I will respond so as there is no confusion (and for the crack :D)
    Bruthal wrote: »
    As the poster said, Call an electrician.

    :confused: Registered electrical contractors are permitted to carry out restricted works so nothing changes for them.
    The majority of stuff in threads is Ireland based.

    ...but not all so my point still stands.
    Yea, you can plan your lighting, but you best get the lad cheaply employed by the registered lad to wire them now.

    Although using a registered electrical contractor is no guarantee of compliance with the regulations they are insured unlike those that carry out "nixers", so yes it would be best to use a registered electrical contractor.

    Despite the remark above the electrical black economy drives electricians wages down.
    Its just as well, as now they are unqualified, and incompetent.

    The new legislation has nothing to do with making someone qualified, unqualified, competent or incompetent.

    Electrical engineers and electrical designers will remain unaffected by this legislation.
    Yea, if an MCB needs fitting here, I think I might just be able to safely do it, despite pat the electrical expert saying otherwise.

    Rest assured, the new legislation is not a reflection of how competent an electrician is or how qualified they are. As you have alluded to in this post and this post the new legislation has nothing to do with safety, it has far more to do with revenue.
    There is a workshop in my house. Maybe there is a loophole there:)

    Is there CT metering in your workshop ?
    I doubt you will ever post "call an electrician" again, as advice.

    Indeed, but I might :D
    How do I go about replacing my burning main switch now?

    Ask yourself this, will you be able to sleep at night if you were to change out this unit in your capacity as a non-registered electrician ?
    Would you spend the rest of your life looking over your shoulder?
    Do you think that the electrical wholesaler may "rat you out" to the authorities ?


  • #139
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,370 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Is there CT metering in your workshop ?
    No but there is a wooden timeclock.
    2011 wrote: »
    Ask yourself this, will you be able to sleep at night if you were to change out this unit in your capacity as a non-registered electrician ?
    Swapping an MCB or fuse unit giving me sleepless nights? Is this comedy night?
    Would you spend the rest of your life looking over your shoulder?
    Why, are they hiring hitmen now?
    Do you think that the electrical wholesaler may "rat you out" to the authorities ?
    If they want to. But what will they say? Quick, call the SWAT team, Bruthal bought an MCB? Whats next, search warrents? Its ok lads, he only has 2 MCBs, they must be for personal use.


  • #140
    mikeoneill893
    Site Banned Posts: 52 ✭✭mikeoneill893


    bit of a shocker it came to this all the same(m cebee here btw)

    i was reci registered all through the boom

    i think it's a bit undemocratic really

    a non-registered guy cant complete new work or even add dom. circuits

    it would be better and fairer if all new work was inspected at 1st-fix and 2nd-fix and remedial work completed if necessary


  • #141
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,370 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Fairness and safety are zero to do with it, its all about tax and revenue.


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  • #142
    mikeoneill893
    Site Banned Posts: 52 ✭✭mikeoneill893


    i remember the ex reci inspector who used to post here

    he became disillusioned with self-certification system

    i know they tightening things up with performance marking and upskilling and the like

    but still there was little oversight really ime


  • #143
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,370 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    The safety claim is another example of how our leaders see us as absolute thicko`s. Perhaps correctly.


  • #144
    mikeoneill893
    Site Banned Posts: 52 ✭✭mikeoneill893


    an annual 'meet and greet' with the reci inspector is how i remember it

    the registered guys are upskilled,insurance,test meters etc etc

    but oversight and discipline is lacking


    which leaves the customer at risk although he may not know it..........


  • #145
    Cerco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,107 ✭✭✭Cerco


    Bruthal wrote: »
    Fairness and safety are zero to do with it, its all about tax and revenue.
    Exactly.
    We have RGI's, Registered TV installers, Registered alarm installers and soon, I expect. registered oil heating installers.
    Will we have registered mechanics, painters, gardeners and carpenters?
    If safety was the issue then surely yes!

    Forcing registration will limit the black economy so that is a positive. However I think we are fast becoming a nanny state when legislators try to limit what an individual can do in their own home.


  • #146
    evosteo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,401 ✭✭✭evosteo


    Cerco wrote: »
    Exactly.
    We have RGI's, Registered TV installers, Registered alarm installers and soon, I expect. registered oil heating installers.
    Will we have registered mechanics, painters, gardeners and carpenters?
    If safety was the issue then surely yes!

    Forcing registration will limit the black economy so that is a positive. However I think we are fast becoming a nanny state when legislators try to limit what an individual can do in their own home.


    i feel its been like that for a long time now


  • #147
    mikeoneill893
    Site Banned Posts: 52 ✭✭mikeoneill893


    Cerco wrote: »
    registered mechanics


    dang have they done anything with indy mechanics?:pac:

    what really used to tee me off was the plumbing could do whatever the f they wanted

    and usually did:cool:


  • #148
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,745 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Everyone that has posted on this thread agrees that the main driver behind this is to generate more revenue for the authorities. However the reason for bringing this legislation in is irrelevant.

    There are some positives from it though, such as:

    1) This is good news for electrical contractors and those that work for them.

    2) It will reduce the amount of electrical "masterpieces" created by some that have a "good electrical understanding" but no qualifications. My feeling is thta the new legislation will scare some of them off.

    3) RECI inspectors be reported to CER if they decide to ignore the ETCI regulations when it suits them. I have been on the receiving end of a RECI inspector telling me that it is perfectly acceptable to protect a 1.5 flex with nothing more than a 32A MCB!

    4) There is a greater public awareness that people carrying out electrical work should be insured and issue a completion certificate due to adds on the radio etc. by CER. I think that this makes people think twice before getting a builder / plumber / DIYer to do some electrical work.


  • #149
    chrismon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭chrismon


    How are they going to know what time frame something was done?
    I have obviously changed mcbs at home.
    Could someone get 'done' for previous work completed?


  • #150
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,745 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    chrismon wrote: »
    How are they going to know what time frame something was done?
    I have obviously changed mcbs at home.
    Could someone get 'done' for previous work completed?

    Nobody has suggested that it will be practicale to police.


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  • #151
    frankmul
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 378 ✭✭frankmul


    2011 wrote: »
    Everyone that has posted on this thread agrees that the main driver behind this is to generate more revenue for the authorities. However the reason for bringing this legislation in is irrelevant.

    There are some positives from it though, such as:

    1) This is good news for electrical contractors and those that work for them.

    2) It will reduce the amount of electrical "masterpieces" created by some that have a "good electrical understanding" but no qualifications. My feeling is thta the new legislation will scare some of them off.

    3) RECI inspectors be reported to CER if they decide to ignore the ETCI regulations when it suits them. I have been on the receiving end of a RECI inspector telling me that it is perfectly acceptable to protect a 1.5 flex with nothing more than a 32A MCB!

    4) There is a greater public awareness that people carrying out electrical work should be insured and issue a completion certificate due to adds on the radio etc. by CER. I think that this makes people think twice before getting a builder / plumber / DIYer to do some electrical work.

    I think that 2011 has made some valid points, prior to this was there any legal route to follow to charge a jack of all trade who puts in bad wiring and causes property damage or worse? I know that an unregistered electrician is breaking the law if they complete any work but I hope that this law will be used only to convict people installing unsafe installations and turning a blind eye to qualified unregistered electricians who do their work properly. I think the nixer will continue but will now only be done by people who really know what they are doing.


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