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Legal careers and private school qouatas

245

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  • #32
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    NoQuarter wrote: »
    There is no role for private schools in the legal profession imo. It just a matter of coincidence. There is absolutely no bar on becoming a Barrister at any stage relation to the school you came from.

    It just so happens that the road to becoming a successful Barrister is fraught with penuary and so to get over that hurdle, you either need parents to support you or you need to get off your ass and get a part-time job.

    When we think of fee-paying schools, we think about youngsters coming out of secondary school and their parents paying their way right through for them, that happens and there is nothing we can do about that. But the legal profession is perhaps the most diverse profession I have ever seen and many professionals in other areas have worked for years in one area to pay their way through legal education and training.

    If there is a question along the lines of "the privileged few have it handed to them on a plate so why cant the disadvantaged have the earth moved for them to help them along" well then, I'm sorry, but thats not right. I revert to my first paragraph and reiterate that there are absolutely no bars to anyone becoming a Barrister if they want it. I'm not saying it will be easy, it may involve getting a job and saving up quite a bit of money, but there are no bars.

    Im a scientist and don't believe in coincidence. I dont wanted anything handed to anyone on a plate. I would rather a situation where the only impediment to a career in law is academic ability and not finances.

    I agree with you that giving disadvantaged students a free ride would be as bad as parents funding their kids through private school.


  • #33
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Johnny I am not referring exclusively to the supreme court Judges rather too the route to becoming a barrister and the resistance some students from disadvantaged backgrounds report to us.

    It would also be fair to say that a lot of students hear that (unfairly prehaps) that a career in legal services requires contacts and are turned off The idea.

    The Bar is the most open profession I know of. I could on my first day in the library go up to the most prominent SC and ask a question no matter where I was educated he or she would answer me.

    I am not from a privileged class far from it, my family had it rough in the 80's as did most in the area I lived in. I like many I know in practice, come from ordinary backgrounds got into college, entered the inns and got into practice. I can point at children of teachers, cooks, clerical workers and on and on who are now barristers, these are no longer the exception to the rule they are the rule. Yes it's hard to make it (and it should be) but its equally hard for all, no matter how many connections you have if you can't do the job no one will brief you it's that's simple.


  • #34
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Im a scientist and don't believe in coincidence. I dont wanted anything handed to anyone on a plate. I would rather a situation where the only impediment to a career in law is academic ability and not finances.

    But there is a financial risk in every business/profession. Perhaps it is greater on a risk/reward basis in the legal profession than in others, but the fact that most journalism students have to spend a few years scratching around writing the odd freelance article and working part time until they get a break is never criticised as being elitist, yet it is remarkably similar to the financial difficulty in entering the legal profession.

    No one owes you a living, and if you want to work in a competitive environment you have to take some level of financial risk on board, to be honest. And if you don't want to take that risk then just say so, don't dress it up in the language of a conspiracy.


  • #35
    NoQuarter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,624 ✭✭✭NoQuarter


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I would rather a situation where the only impediment to a career in law is academic ability and not finances.
    .

    So would I but the bar is what it is, you are self-employed at the bar and nobody is going to pay you for something where they can get someone more experienced for the same price. There is inevitably going to be free years.

    Its the same as any business, there is absolutely no guarantee of gaining business or an income.

    Realistically, the easiest part of getting to the bar is paying for an undergrad and then the King's Inns. There are supports in place to assist disadvantaged persons that arent available to the privileged. The real financial struggle only begins once you begin practice and there is simply no way around it or at least, I dont see it. I say this as someone who is struggling in year 1 at the bar by the way.


  • #36
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Also, on the issue of financial disincentives, most of my friends who have studied "science" have found that after unpaid college up to doctorate level taking up to 10 years, they then do a few years of post doctorate research at around minimum wage. This is all with no certainty of work afterwards.

    Whereas with law anyone with a first or good 2h1 from nui or trinity have a fairly good chance of a training contract with a large firm paying 30k plus to start, and if they excel there they can swiftly move up to higher incomes. This is all regardless of background. I have never heard of someone with a 1st or high 2h1 being refused a job in the legal sector solely because of their socio-economic background.


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  • #37
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,810 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Yawn..this is Ireland , get over it, its all about contacts and 'getting someone in the door'...
    Lawyers, politicians, civil public service, teachers... You would do the same for your little johnnie if you could...Could you imagine if there was an Irish big brother tv series, everyone would be just sitting around figuring out what relations they have in common, we are only a step above Iceland.

    Then again ...the private sector would do the same for their kids, many tradesmen of a certain age can be seen going around with their offspring in tow....builders, electricians, plumbers, mechanics, farmers...Is that unfair?.. Would you be equally giving out about farming being a closed shop?

    the way I see it, talent will out eventually if you have the persistence to back it up.

    Its actually 'fee charging' btw as the school doesn't pay the fees..Private schools are schools outside the system run for profit..Institute of Ed. Etc.


  • #38
    camphor
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 202 ✭✭camphor


    All second level schools other than VEC charged fees until 1968. I am not aware of any member of the legal profession who went to a VEC school.
    Up to the early 70s only a small minority got to the leaving cert and smaller number again got to Third level and a smaller number again were able to launch professional careers.


  • #39
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    infosys wrote: »
    I can point at children of teachers, cooks, clerical workers and on and on who are now barristers, these are no longer the exception to the rule they are the rule.
    Ah now.

    Lets not over-egg this pudding. Some reality... the legal contacts issue is nonsense, but 'the rule' is not that the children of cooks or unskilled manual labourers are representative.

    I can't over-emphasize enough that socio-economic background appears not to have the anticipated bearing on a barrister's subsequent outlook (my experience), but for what it's worth I don't think it's accurate to portray the children of unskilled or manual workers and cooks as "the rule" at the Bar.


  • #40
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Ah now.

    Lets not over-egg this pudding. Some reality... the legal contacts issue is nonsense, but 'the rule' is not that the children of cooks or unskilled manual labourers are representative.

    I can't over-emphasize enough that socio-economic background appears not to have the anticipated bearing on a barrister's subsequent outlook (my experience), but for what it's worth I don't think it's accurate to portray the children of unskilled or manual workers and cooks as "the rule" at the Bar.

    Was out today at lunch 3 barristers 4 solicitors, the jobs of the fathers as follows, 1 mechanic, 1 post office employee, 1 university professor, 1 A.I. man, 1 Van driver 1 self employed business men 1 solicitor.


  • #41
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Can we just get to the bottom line?

    What are you suggesting, that socio-economic backgrounds at the bar are representative of and proportional to the national population? Lets be clear.


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  • #42
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Can we just get to the bottom line?

    What are you suggesting, that socio-economic backgrounds at the bar are representative of and proportional to the national population? Lets be clear.

    I am saying from my personal experience the Bar has over the last 10 to 20 years become more representative of society in general. I know guys who went to the top end schools and who went to schools some would consider average enough. In fact in all my time in law no one has ever asked which school I went too.


  • #43
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    Ok we're still beating around the bush here.

    1. The Barristers' profession, like all higher established professions (medicine, dentistry, actuary, university lecturers), is simply not representative of the full socio-economic backdrop of the national workforce. I'm afraid anyone who is suggesting otherwise (and that may be nobody) has a major credibility issue. Ditto on this point for judges.

    2. The OP is completely off the wall on the matter of contacts as it relates to the Barristers' profession. He may have a point on personal contacts and judicial appointments.

    3. The OP is probably off the wall in suggesting that the Barristers' or Judges' professions are disproportionately more elite than the other established professions, insofar as this relates to personal and family wealth.

    Is that agreed or not?


  • #44
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Ok we're still beating around the bush here.

    1. The Barristers' profession, like all higher established professions (medicine, dentistry, actuary, university lecturers), is simply not representative of the full socio-economic backdrop of the national workforce. I'm afraid anyone who is suggesting otherwise (and that may be nobody) has a major credibility issue. Ditto on this point for judges.

    2. The OP is completely off the wall on the matter of contacts as it relates to the Barristers' profession. He may have a point on personal contacts and judicial appointments.

    3. The OP is probably off the wall in suggesting that the Barristers' or Judges' professions are disproportionately more elite than the other established professions, insofar as this relates to personal and family wealth.

    Is that agreed or not?

    Where did I say it was fully representative of society, 2500 barristers out of a population of close to 5million. But has it improved over the last 20 years of course it has. Free fees, access to third level, grants for the inns and Blackhall have all helped to get people to the door. Among a certain age of barrister there are huge amounts of private school boys, and a lesser extent girls. I am saying that is changed. Is there more to change yes. Do I think it should be easier to devil for barristers from certain backgrounds, yes. But once you get there it is fully up to the person themselves no matter what their background. Judge Frank Clark being a good example.

    I don't know what you are asking is agreed or not. Do I think the OP is incorrect yup, do I think the Bar/Judicary is a old boys club no, if it was I would not be in it.


  • #45
    McCrack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,016 ✭✭✭McCrack


    The IT are doing a number of articles on the SC.

    Link profiles the Judges:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/one-court-eight-voices-1.1454331

    As I said previously they are not socio-economically representative of the legal profession as as somebody else pointed out 2nd level and 3rd level education was the preserve of few in this country until the late 1960's. It would follow that senior lawyers and Judges of today would usually have come from privileged backgrounds.

    The Bar and Solicitors professions have opened up widely in the past 10-15 years to persons from non-traditional backgrounds. The Bar Council & Law Society/DSBA have bursaries that give financial assistance to people from non-traditional backgrounds without the means to pay exam/course fees and support themselves throughout training.

    The reality is not that there are barriers to entry to the legal profession but circumstances from the time a child is born right through until they reach adulthood that unfortunately greatly influence that child's career or vocational prospects. The legal profession cannot and should not be blamed for that.


  • #46
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    infosys wrote: »
    Where did I say it was fully representative of society, 2500 barristers out of a population of close to 5million.
    2,500 membership has nothing to do with it.

    You could expect to pull 2,5000 people off the streets across the 32 counties and legitimately expect them to be representative of society.

    If the Bar - like any other profession in the land - is not representative, then legitimate questions need to be asked.

    That's all I'm saying. No need to take it so personally, I asked if it was agreed because your previous comments seemed vague.


  • #47
    Pro Hoc Vice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,087 ✭✭✭Pro Hoc Vice


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    2,500 membership has nothing to do with it.

    You could expect to pull 2,5000 people off the streets across the 32 counties and legitimately expect them to be representative of society.

    If the Bar - like any other profession in the land - is not representative, then legitimate questions need to be asked.

    That's all I'm saying. No need to take it so personally, I asked if it was agreed because your previous comments seemed vague.

    I thought all my posts are clear on the point but to make it as clear as I can. The bar was an old boys club mostly inhabited bye rich gentlemen and or landed elite. The bar for many reason remained that way into the 1970's/80's.

    Due to a number of reasons that has changed, I listed out some of those reasons. Now the bar is much more representative of society. Is it totally so, no, but there is many at the bar from very economically disadvantaged backgrounds.

    I do not know why you think my post are vague as I have made what I believe are very clear statments of my personal opinion.


  • #48
    evolving_doors
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,810 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    All of miriam o callaghan's guests on saturday morning radio went to fee charging schools...
    .
    .
    Just saying..


  • #49
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    Ok we're still beating around the bush here.

    1. The Barristers' profession, like all higher established professions (medicine, dentistry, actuary, university lecturers), is simply not representative of the full socio-economic backdrop of the national workforce. I'm afraid anyone who is suggesting otherwise (and that may be nobody) has a major credibility issue. Ditto on this point for judges.

    2. The OP is completely off the wall on the matter of contacts as it relates to the Barristers' profession. He may have a point on personal contacts and judicial appointments.

    3. The OP is probably off the wall in suggesting that the Barristers' or Judges' professions are disproportionately more elite than the other established professions, insofar as this relates to personal and family wealth.

    Is that agreed or not?

    I wouldnt agree with some of the points for example our students seem to find careers in law the hardest too obtain. I cannot fathom why people area saying contacts in law area unimportant.


  • #50
    XxMCRxBabyxX
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 7,441 Mod ✭✭✭✭XxMCRxBabyxX


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I wouldnt agree with some of the points for example our students seem to find careers in law the hardest too obtain. I cannot fathom why people area saying contacts in law area unimportant.

    Probably worth noting that every law student is finding a career in law difficult at the moment. Contacts can only bring you so far during times like this.


  • #51
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Armelodie wrote: »
    All of miriam o callaghan's guests on saturday morning radio went to fee charging schools...
    .
    .
    Just saying..

    Indeed and I am willing too better a lot who studied law here attended fee paying. The same lot are probrably the ones saying anyone can do it oblivious to their advantage.


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  • #52
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »
    Probably worth noting that every law student is finding a career in law difficult at the moment. Contacts can only bring you so far during times like this.

    I am aware of that. Maybe this will be the paradign shift that will remove the non academic variables.


  • #53
    XxMCRxBabyxX
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 7,441 Mod ✭✭✭✭XxMCRxBabyxX


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Indeed and I am willing too better a lot who studied law here attended fee paying. The same lot are probrably the ones saying anyone can do it oblivious to their advantage.

    I'm studying law and know many others (through college and interning) who have done so, I think only three attended a private school. Others came from quite disadvantaged schools and have done very well for themselves, better than the private school students. I attended public school btw.


  • #54
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    I think my major problem with those saying anyone can do its seem to be underplaying the struggle certain socio economic groups undergo too get too college. On top of that getting the degree seems too be the easiest part of a career in law for some disadvantaged students.


  • #55
    XxMCRxBabyxX
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 7,441 Mod ✭✭✭✭XxMCRxBabyxX


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I think my major problem with those saying anyone can do its seem to be underplaying the struggle certain socio economic groups undergo too get too college. On top of that getting the degree seems too be the easiest part of a career in law for some disadvantaged students.

    I think you're missing the fact that it's the easiest part for any law student. KI and Blackhall are difficult to get into no matter who you are. At that point your degree (marks: 1.1, 2.1) and the further exams are what matter either way anyway.

    I understand that there are more difficulties for the disadvantaged when it comes to third level education but that applies to any subject.


  • #56
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »
    I'm studying law and know many others (through college and interning) who have done so, I think only three attended a private school. Others came from quite disadvantaged schools and have done very well for themselves, better than the private school students. I attended public school btw.

    Well thats good too hear. I hope things are changing in this regard. I don't want a situation where we get x amount from a deis school and y amount from public. I am against advantage linked too anything but academic achievement.
    I am actually not a fan hear programmes people will be surprised to know.


  • #57
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »
    I think you're missing the fact that it's the easiest part for any law student. KI and Blackhall are difficult to get into no matter who you are. At that point your degree (marks: 1.1, 2.1) and the further exams are what matter either way anyway.

    I understand that there are more difficulties for the disadvantaged when it comes to third level education but that applies to any subject.

    Yes thats what I said in an earlier post. I would say science differs in that you require no contacts too make good.


  • #58
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I think my major problem with those saying anyone can do its seem to be underplaying the struggle certain socio economic groups undergo too get too college. On top of that getting the degree seems too be the easiest part of a career in law for some disadvantaged students.

    Well if you are not prepared to believe opinions other than your own, why bother with this thread? Most posters here are genuinely trying to help you understand how mistaken your assumptions are, and all you do is accuse us of lying, flippant or misinformed.


  • #59
    Cody Pomeray
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Cody Pomeray


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I wouldnt agree with some of the points for example our students seem to find careers in law the hardest too obtain.
    You say a legal postgraduate qualification is more difficult to acquire than, say, a medical degree?

    I find that hard to believe. How big is your sample of students who have progressed to careers in higher established professions compared with law? I would guess you don't have a very large sample to choose from.
    XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »
    I'm studying law and know many others (through college and interning) who have done so, I think only three attended a private school.
    Is this undergraduate?
    How many in the class?

    While I think the OP is off the mark, I as assuming your class must be tiny.


  • #60
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,565 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    Well if you are not prepared to believe opinions other than your own, why bother with this thread? Most posters here are genuinely trying to help you understand how mistaken your assumptions are, and all you do is accuse us of lying, flippant or misinformed.

    Lying? Right. And help me with understanding? It's not a matter of help I dont agree with some of ths points your made.

    The fact is many of our students have been saying the same thing again and again regarding law. I myself assume fee paying pupils make up a large percentage of law graduates, barristers and judges. To large to be explained by coincidence.

    You seem to think socio economic background is no impediment to a career in law historically. That is not what we have heard from students.


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  • #61
    XxMCRxBabyxX
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 7,441 Mod ✭✭✭✭XxMCRxBabyxX


    Cody Pomeray wrote: »
    You say a legal postgraduate qualification is more difficult to acquire than, say, a medical degree?

    I find that hard to believe. How big is your sample of students who have progressed to careers in higher established professions compared with law? I would guess you don't have a very large sample to choose from.

    Is this undergraduate?
    How many in the class?

    While I think the OP is off the mark, I as assuming your class must be tiny.

    Undergrad. Class of 70ish I think. I can think of one private school student (a mature student) but maybe there was or two others. None that I knew though. The other two I met while interning (out of a large group).


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