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Feminist Men

1235712

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭Millicent


    GalwayGuy2 wrote: »
    Hmm, all of that is true only if the theory of male privilege is true.

    You don't think it is?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭GalwayGuy2


    You don't think it is?

    Meh, it doesn't really matter what I believe in or not.

    Just commenting that whether you believe in male privilege or not, and the degree which you believe or disbelieve, decides whether or not you agree that Feminism is unfair or not.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭starling


    GalwayGuy2 wrote: »
    Meh, it doesn't really matter what I believe in or not.

    Just commenting that whether you believe in male privilege or not, and the degree which you believe or disbelieve, decides whether or not you agree that Feminism is unfair or not.

    I think that's very true. Pretty much all of us are priviledged in certain ways, and it's unbelieveably easy to take that priviledge for granted or to be unable or just plain unwilling to see it until someone else shows it to us.
    Like for example I am priviledged in the sense that I am Irish and white, people of other nationalities and ethnicities face all kinds of unfair discrimination in this country, from institutional racism to "casual" everyday racism and even abuse. It's very easy to be unaware of how "easy" I have it in comparison to others.

    There are of course some people who will flat out refuse to even think about this kind of thing because they feel like "Yeah, I have my own problems, so I don't feel 'priviledged' at all" and they just can't put themselves in another's shoes, whether it's through unwillingness or lack of imagination. So it's always going to be a struggle to show them that you can be unfairly priviledged in one way (by being white, or straight, or a man for example) even as you are discriminated against in some other way (because you're poor, or because of your religion, or because of where you live).

    I honestly don't know what the solution for this is :( But I do think that this is one of the areas in which men can be enormously helpful because the type of person who refuses to see that he has some priviledge in some area because he is a man, is the type who is very unlikely to take on board a woman's account of being the victim of sexism, but might listen to his fellow man.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭iwantmydinner


    It's not an exaggeration. It's what American women are legally entitled to. Any more than that is up to the generosity of the employer.

    My point is when people advocate for fairness and equality they tend not to think of what the consequences of that could potentially mean. Might be fair to you, but might not be fair to the person carrying your workload and still getting the same pay or the people of a small village who can't see the doctor because s/he is on parental leave.

    If you look at maternity leave from a health perspective, as in recovery time, then there is no reason to advocate for paternity leave too. If you look at it for time to spend time with your we arrival, then that's another thing altogether but it means twice as much absenteeism and more costs to small businesses.

    God, what an utterly depressing view you have on maternity leave.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,717 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    biko wrote: »
    I think it needs to be done mainly through the workplace and can be either by allowing women into male dominated jobs or increasing salaries for typical women's job, thus increasing the status for those jobs.
    This is a fairly strange notion to me tbh. Outside of the public sector (which is already heavily dominated by women and generally over-paid on any comparison to the private sector) the market dictates the salaries of jobs.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 90 ✭✭CarlDunne1979


    starling wrote: »
    I think that's very true. Pretty much all of us are priviledged in certain ways, and it's unbelieveably easy to take that priviledge for granted or to be unable or just plain unwilling to see it until someone else shows it to us.
    Like for example I am priviledged in the sense that I am Irish and white, people of other nationalities and ethnicities face all kinds of unfair discrimination in this country, from institutional racism to "casual" everyday racism and even abuse. It's very easy to be unaware of how "easy" I have it in comparison to others.

    There are of course some people who will flat out refuse to even think about this kind of thing because they feel like "Yeah, I have my own problems, so I don't feel 'priviledged' at all" and they just can't put themselves in another's shoes, whether it's through unwillingness or lack of imagination. So it's always going to be a struggle to show them that you can be unfairly priviledged in one way (by being white, or straight, or a man for example) even as you are discriminated against in some other way (because you're poor, or because of your religion, or because of where you live).

    I honestly don't know what the solution for this is :( But I do think that this is one of the areas in which men can be enormously helpful because the type of person who refuses to see that he has some priviledge in some area because he is a man, is the type who is very unlikely to take on board a woman's account of being the victim of sexism, but might listen to his fellow man.

    You have to be able to see how modern, western feminism simply appears to be a case of privileged women unhappy due to cultural neurosis, scapegoating their personal problems by imagining they are caused by subjective ideas of supposed inequalities relative to men.

    I wish more people would just be honest and come out and say that life as a modern human tends to seem hard almost entirely for non-rational, psychological reasons rather than pretending that there's an actual serious, ongoing external problem that's the sole cause of their inability to live with happiness and ease.


  • Posts: 26,219 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You have to be able to see how modern, western feminism simply appears to be a case of privileged women unhappy due to cultural neurosis, scapegoating their personal problems by imagining they are caused by subjective ideas of supposed inequalities relative to men.

    I wish more people would just be honest and come out and say that life as a modern human tends to seem hard almost entirely for non-rational, psychological reasons rather than pretending that there's an actual serious, ongoing external problem that's the sole cause of their inability to live with happiness and ease.

    Inequalities exist Carl, regardless of your inability to see them.

    If you can't even entertain the thought of certain demographics being more privileged than others, you aren't in any position to judge whether someone elses experience is real, imagined, or simply disregarded by people like yourself who simply reject the experiences of those you dismiss as neurotics.

    Having read a few of your posts before, I suggest you work on your own neurosis before labelling others.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 90 ✭✭CarlDunne1979


    Candie wrote: »
    Inequalities exist Carl, regardless of your inability to see them.

    If you can't even entertain the thought of certain demographics being more privileged than others, you aren't in any position to judge whether someone elses experience is real, imagined, or simply disregarded by people like yourself who simply reject the experiences of those you dismiss as neurotics.

    Having read a few of your posts before, I suggest you work on your own neurosis before labelling others.


    Serious inequalities don't exist though, when it comes to being a male vs being a female. If they did, then why can't anyone name any of them without resorting to entirely subjective points of view?

    The women who make up the modern feminist movement are well in the top 1% of the most privileged humans to have ever lived on this earth. Yet they are ungrateful for this. Don't you think that's a problem?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    starling wrote: »
    I think that's very true. Pretty much all of us are priviledged in certain ways, and it's unbelieveably easy to take that priviledge for granted or to be unable or just plain unwilling to see it until someone else shows it to us.
    Like for example I am priviledged in the sense that I am Irish and white, people of other nationalities and ethnicities face all kinds of unfair discrimination in this country, from institutional racism to "casual" everyday racism and even abuse. It's very easy to be unaware of how "easy" I have it in comparison to others.

    There are of course some people who will flat out refuse to even think about this kind of thing because they feel like "Yeah, I have my own problems, so I don't feel 'priviledged' at all" and they just can't put themselves in another's shoes, whether it's through unwillingness or lack of imagination. So it's always going to be a struggle to show them that you can be unfairly priviledged in one way (by being white, or straight, or a man for example) even as you are discriminated against in some other way (because you're poor, or because of your religion, or because of where you live).

    I honestly don't know what the solution for this is :( But I do think that this is one of the areas in which men can be enormously helpful because the type of person who refuses to see that he has some priviledge in some area because he is a man, is the type who is very unlikely to take on board a woman's account of being the victim of sexism, but might listen to his fellow man.

    Its far more complex than that. A man only has privilege in his own class and race and ethnicity and even then its not that stable.

    You can't honestly believe that a black male who grew up n a Chicago slum has more privilege than Kate Middleton just because he is a male?

    You can't honestly believe that white straight men can't also be victims of hate crimes?

    Such tidy little boxes.


  • Posts: 26,219 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Serious inequalities don't exist though, when it comes to being a male vs being a female. If they did, then why can't anyone name any of them without resorting to entirely subjective points of view?

    The women who make up the modern feminist movement are well in the top 1% of the most privileged humans to have ever lived on this earth. Yet they are ungrateful for this. Don't you think that's a problem?


    Your second paragraph is incredibly subjective Carl. You're demanding something you simply don't provide yourself. :)

    It's your opinion that women aren't grateful enough for what is your perception of there being no 'serious' inequalities. Define serious, define gratitude and define 'modern feminist movement' and define the top 1% in terms of privilege. Subjectively, of course.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 90 ✭✭CarlDunne1979


    Candie wrote: »
    Your second paragraph is incredibly subjective Carl. You're demanding something you simply don't provide yourself. :)

    It's your opinion that women aren't grateful enough for what is your perception of there being no 'serious' inequalities. Define serious, define gratitude and define 'modern feminist movement' and define the top 1% in terms of privilege. Subjectively, of course.

    You're the one making the initial claim: there is a patriarchal system that governs our lives and favours men. The burden lies on you to give reasons for how this is the case. Still none? Outside of "slut shaming" and other trivial nonsense.

    Look at history. Most of it is very dark indeed, where people actually were seriously oppressed. Even look at how most of the world operates. Women (and men) in the west are indeed incredibly privileged. If you're unhappy with your situation it's down to greed.


  • Posts: 26,219 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You're the one making the initial claim: there is a patriarchal system that governs our lives and favours men. The burden lies on you to give reasons for how this is the case. Still none? Outside of "slut shaming" and other trivial nonsense.

    No Carl. I was answering your post where you claimed that there was no serious inequality and us neurotic western women were ungrateful neurotics and only experienced inequality in our subject opinions, and not in fact.

    It's up to you to back that up, objectively of course. Because it sounds like it's only your opinion.
    Look at history. Most of it is very dark indeed, where people actually were seriously oppressed. Even look at how most of the world operates. Women (and men) in the west are indeed incredibly privileged. If you're unhappy with your situation it's down to greed.

    So no one has a right to complain about anything because it used to be much worse, and still is, in other places.

    Presumably that means that if I break a leg I can't complain because someone else, somewhere else, has two broken legs.

    Yeah, pure greed alright.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 90 ✭✭CarlDunne1979


    Candie wrote: »
    No Carl. I was answering your post where you claimed that there was no serious inequality and us neurotic western women were ungrateful neurotics and only experienced inequality in our subject opinions, and not in fact.

    It's up to you to back that up, subjectively of course. Because it sounds like it's only your opinion.



    So no one has a right to complain about anything because it used to be much worse, and still is, in other places.

    Presumably that means that if I break a leg I can't complain because someone else, somewhere else, has two broken legs.

    Yeah, pure greed alright.

    Most people, men and women, perceive the sexes to be reasonably equal. You're the one with the unusual position, therefore the onus is solely on you to back it up.

    I'm not speaking in comparison, that's what you're doing. I'm saying that objectively speaking, western women have a blessed life situation. You are guaranteed all the basic necessities, along with many luxuries. Yet you still complain about trivial things. This is a sign of ungratefulness. How come in many dirt poor countries the people are much happier than the average feminist? Because they don't gauge their happiness by comparison to others and social status.


  • Posts: 26,219 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Most people, men and women, perceive the sexes to be reasonably equal. You're the one with the unusual position, therefore the onus is solely on you to back it up.

    I'm not speaking in comparison, that's what you're doing. I'm saying that objectively speaking, western women have a blessed life situation. You are guaranteed all the basic necessities, along with many luxuries. Yet you still complain for some reason about trivial things. This is a sign of ungratefulness.

    I never claimed any position Carl, let alone an unusual one. I just pointed out that inequalities exist, whether or not you can see them or choose to acknowledge them. That is the nature of being human, sometimes things pass us by, until they happen to us.

    I might also point out that what may seem trivial to you is not necessarily trivial to the person who experiences it, and that your opinion does not invalidate that.

    Nobody is denying that generally Western men and women life a life of relative ease. That doesn't mean that inequalities do not exist within that structure. It would be extremely naive to think they do not, as it is to state that people are 'guaranteed all the basic necessities, along with many luxuries'. Not everyone is.

    Both men and women complain about seemingly trivial things at times, it doesn't necessarily follow that they are ungrateful for all that is good in their lives.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭starling


    Its far more complex than that. A man only has privilege in his own class and race and ethnicity and even then its not that stable.

    You can't honestly believe that a black male who grew up n a Chicago slum has more privilege than Kate Middleton just because he is a male?

    You can't honestly believe that white straight men can't also be victims of hate crimes?

    Such tidy little boxes.

    Where did I say any such thing? I said that inequality and priviledge come in different forms so if a man is underprivileged in one way he might find it harder to acknowledge being priviledged in another way.
    Can you please give it a rest with the strawmen.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,029 ✭✭✭um7y1h83ge06nx


    I've came to the conclusion that the main issue is what is the exact definition of feminism.

    Some definitions indicate that it is just the flip-side of male chauvinism.

    Other definitions then talk about "equality for the sexes" which sounds more modern to me. If that is the case though, why not drop the word feminism.

    Oxford dictionary says it is the "the advocacy of women’s rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.". Why not "the advocacy of men and women's rights"?

    I believe if people started talking seriously of gender equality for both sexes it would gain a lot more support and make more progress than trying to march under the banner of the more outdated idea of feminism. A little like the RUC being dropped and becoming the PSNI.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭iwantmydinner


    ... "slut shaming" and other trivial nonsense.

    Not trivial at all. It's deadly serious for those involved.
    Most people, men and women, perceive the sexes to be reasonably equal.

    Evidence??
    How come in many dirt poor countries the people are much happier than the average feminist?

    What the hell? This may be the most ridiculous statement I've ever seen on boards. How can you seriously presume to gauge the happiness level of people you've never met in "dirt poor countries" and compare it to the happiness level of a group of people you've clearly never bothered to connect with or understand?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭starling


    I've came to the conclusion that the main issue is what is the exact definition of feminism.

    Some definitions indicate that it is just the flip-side of male chauvinism.

    Other definitions then talk about "equality for the sexes" which sounds more modern to me. If that is the case though, why not drop the word feminism.

    Oxford dictionary says it is the "the advocacy of women’s rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.". Why not "the advocacy of men and women's rights"?

    I believe if people started talking seriously of gender equality for both sexes it would gain a lot more support and make more progress than trying to march under the banner of the more outdated idea of feminism. A little like the RUC being dropped and becoming the PSNI.

    From Wikipedia:
    "Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.[1][2] This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.[3]

    Feminist theory, which emerged from these feminist movements, aims to understand the nature of gender inequality by examining women's social roles and lived experience; it has developed theories in a variety of disciplines in order to respond to issues such as the social construction of sex and gender.[4][5] Some of the earlier forms of feminism have been criticized for taking into account only white, middle-class, educated perspectives. This led to the creation of ethnically specific or multiculturalist forms of feminism.[6]

    Feminist activists campaign for women's rights – such as in contract law, property, and voting – while also promoting bodily integrity, autonomy, and reproductive rights for women. Feminist campaigns have changed societies, particularly in the West, by achieving women's suffrage, gender neutrality in English, equal pay for women, reproductive rights for women (including access to contraceptives and abortion), and the right to enter into contracts and own property.[7][8] Feminists have worked to protect women and girls from domestic violence, sexual harassment, and sexual assault.[9][10][11] They have also advocated for workplace rights, including maternity leave, and against forms of discrimination against women.[7][8][12]

    Feminism is mainly focused on women's issues, but because feminism seeks gender equality, bell hooks and other feminists have argued that men's liberation is a necessary part of feminism, and that men are also harmed by sexism and gender roles.[13]"

    What part of feminism is it that you think is outdated, exactly? And why should it be given a new name, when there's nothing wrong with the one we're using now?

    If you think that feminism isn't doing enough for men, you don't really understand what feminism is.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    Perhaps the problem is not with the definition of feminism but rather how it is now perceived.

    Now speaking purely anecdotally within my peer group of both males and females the idea of a feminist as a radfem is well established. In conversation the women increasingly seemed to distance themselves from feminism in the present while supporting the principles of it.

    I think this bad publicity is part of the reason there seems to be a backlash against it with people increasingly referring to themselves as egalitarian etc.

    Like I said just an observation, your mileage may vary.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭Ambersky


    Anti feminist arguments haven't really changed that much since the early part of the 20th century. All of the usual - man hating, wanting to be a man, socially privileged, whining about nothing, cant get a man, cant keep a man, want to be better than men, they are all lesbians, don't know how lucky they are, ugly mad extremists - accusations, have been trotted out since women were simply looking for the vote. None of this is new.
    It isn't a case that these arguments have only started since women got their basic rights and are now looking for too much, these arguments are the same arguments that have been used against feminism since its beginnings.

    Its not like feminism hasn't been changing or that all feminists subscribe to the same outlook, ideas evolve. Feminists argue among themselves, take on challenges, go through difficult struggles within groups and change.

    Equality of the sexes isn't a new idea to feminism, how could anyone think that, except that the misrepresentation of feminism, the ridiculing and lampooning of feminism especially in the popular press has always been the norm.
    The misrepresentation of feminism has always made it difficult for many ordinary women to associate themselves with feminism.

    Feminism and feminists are usually the ones explaining themselves, maybe we should have a look at anti feminism, what it is and where it comes from.
    Not as much has been written about the history of anti feminism and I think it might make for an interesting read.

    For now here is a link to Smearing Of Feminism - A History Through Illustrations

    http://genderben.com/2012/05/24/smearing-of-feminism-a-history-through-illustrations/

    Just look at how similar this representation of a suffragette is to the image put forward of modern day feminists.

    19101.jpg


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    starling wrote: »
    From Wikipedia:
    "Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.[1][2] This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.[3]
    All about "equality"....
    Feminist activists campaign for women's rights – such as in contract law, property, and voting – while also promoting bodily integrity, autonomy, and reproductive rights for women. Feminist campaigns have changed societies, particularly in the West, by achieving women's suffrage, gender neutrality in English, equal pay for women, reproductive rights for women (including access to contraceptives and abortion), and the right to enter into contracts and own property.[7][8] Feminists have worked to protect women and girls from domestic violence, sexual harassment, and sexual assault.[9][10][11] They have also advocated for workplace rights, including maternity leave, and against forms of discrimination against women.[7][8][12]
    ...all about rights.
    What part of feminism is it that you think is outdated, exactly? And why should it be given a new name, when there's nothing wrong with the one we're using now?
    It no longer represents "equality", it now represents "rights" which, the pursuit of these, often appears in evident and stark contrast to "equality". eg: quotas and the like.
    If you think that feminism isn't doing enough for men, you don't really understand what feminism is.
    This is very true, feminism isn't "supposed" (for want of a better word) to do anything for men, and that's why I dislike it's current form. I find it hard to accept intolerant elitist bodies - especially when they choose to discriminate on the basis of ones genitilia!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,029 ✭✭✭um7y1h83ge06nx


    As I said earlier in the thread I would describe myself as an egalitarian, feminism is in my own opinion a little too narrow for what I believe in.

    Contained in many definitions of feminism and taking from starling's quote from wikipedia is "Feminist activists campaign for women's rights".

    Well, that's a good thing. For example you may have heard recently about the threesome in Dublin involving a young woman and 2 rugby players. I have seen a lot of discussion on this (and have seen some text from some of the parties) and it is disheartening that while the lads are "legends" the girl is a "slut". That is unfair and sexist and I would support changing people's old-fashioned opinions so that women are recognised as sexual beings just like men and get rid of this stupid "slut" mentality. This would be campaigning for women's rights in order to bring about equality.

    I also feel strongly about family law, an area where I feel men are less than equal in the eyes of the law. I also believe in equal prison sentencing for both sexes - http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0522/103603-prison/ The problem here is that Feminism would have to actively campaign for men's rights as men in this case are the less than equal sex. Thing is would this happen under feminism? The link I refer to deals with a controversial topic at the time where Bacik was accused of sexism as she was attempting to promote inequality while limiting the discussion of the topic to female members of the Oireachtas (plenty of threads here on Boards about this). Now of course maybe a lot of posters here don't see Ivana Bacik as a true feminist or representing the feminist movement, I don't know.

    So I do agree with Rev HellFire when he says "I think this bad publicity is part of the reason there seems to be a backlash against it with people increasingly referring to themselves as egalitarian etc."

    I'm not a feminist hater I just see being more egalitarian as a more modern approach to creating true gender equality, having both sexes working together as a whole rather than against one another.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,220 ✭✭✭Ambersky


    Nothing new about egalitarianism or versions of it being put forward as an alternative to focusing on what is happening for women and looking for equality.
    Again right from the time of the suffragettes there was an argument that there was no need to focus on women, it was better to focus on families, and people as a whole.
    There have always been denials that there was ever a need to focus on women. A reluctance to focus on the needs of women, the experience of women, the perspective of women, hasnt started since laws have been changed to promote equality.

    Often members of what could be considered to be a dominant group will declare they see no difference in the treatment of people in dominant and non dominant groups, in fact they will point out ways that they are actually the discriminated group now that equality laws are in place.
    A feature of a dominant group is that they are seen as the norm and this normalisation is institutionalised to the degree that you dont even notice.
    So all male discussion panels are seen as people having a discussion, one woman on the panel is seen as inclusive but an all woman panel is seen as a deliberate attempt to make it all female.
    Dominant groups dont have to be in the majority as happens in South Africa where whites declare they have learned that colour is such an unimportant thing to focus on and will adamantly defend the position that there is no longer any difference in the treatment of races in South Africa. They will say that if anything there is now a reverse of discrimination against whites and refuse to acknowledge the historical and continued absence of basic accommodation education and health provision for many black people. They will blame this on black people themselves as equality now exists in law and many positions of power are occupied by black people. They will also point out the fact that this poverty can also exist in the white population in order to dismiss the argument that there is a difference in the way black and white people now live.
    These arguments are very simular to those used to say there is no difference in the ways men and women are treated. Im not saying South Africa is not a complex situation or that it can simply be broken down to issues of race. I am saying race was and is an important issue, despite the opposition to this idea from many whites.
    Im not saying either that the gap between the treatment of men and women in the west is as wide as the gulf between black and white in South Africa, Quite the opposite.
    Im trying to say that no matter how large or small the differences are, the dominant group will deny there are any differences or injustices or will do all they can to minimise those differences .

    The existence of equality laws do not mean that society has changed its attitudes and that the non dominant group no longer faces discrimination. Russia which had laws enacted to legalise LGBT people has now reversed those laws and there has been a large violent backlash against LGBT people going on in that country for some time. In fact it is when people begin to express their equality and no longer hide themselves that they are most prone to backlash from people who want things to go back to the way they were or at least to no longer have to face and actually live with difference.
    The existance of laws to create equality between the sexes does not mean people are actually treated equally.

    I believe it is up to people in the non dominant group to say if equality has been achieved or not. I don't think equality is something the dominant group can usually decide on and evaluate alone, thinking they can is usually just an expression of their dominance.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭johnr1


    Ambersky wrote: »
    Nothing new about egalitarianism or versions of it being put forward as an alternative to focusing on what is happening for women and looking for equality.
    Again right from the time of the suffragettes there was an argument that there was no need to focus on women, it was better to focus on families, and people as a whole.
    There have always been denials that there was ever a need to focus on women. A reluctance to focus on the needs of women, the experience of women, the perspective of women, hasnt started since laws have been changed to promote equality.

    Often members of what could be considered to be a dominant group will declare they see no difference in the treatment of people in dominant and non dominant groups, in fact they will point out ways that they are actually the discriminated group now that equality laws are in place.
    A feature of a dominant group is that they are seen as the norm and this normalisation is institutionalised to the degree that you dont even notice.
    So all male discussion panels are seen as people having a discussion, one woman on the panel is seen as inclusive but an all woman panel is seen as a deliberate attempt to make it all female.
    Dominant groups dont have to be in the majority as happens in South Africa where whites declare they have learned that colour is such an unimportant thing to focus on and will adamantly defend the position that there is no longer any difference in the treatment of races in South Africa. They will say that if anything there is now a reverse of discrimination against whites and refuse to acknowledge the historical and continued absence of basic accommodation education and health provision for many black people. They will blame this on black people themselves as equality now exists in law and many positions of power are occupied by black people. They will also point out the fact that this poverty can also exist in the white population in order to dismiss the argument that there is a difference in the way black and white people now live.
    These arguments are very simular to those used to say there is no difference in the ways men and women are treated. Im not saying South Africa is not a complex situation or that it can simply be broken down to issues of race. I am saying race was and is an important issue, despite the opposition to this idea from many whites.
    Im not saying either that the gap between the treatment of men and women in the west is as wide as the gulf between black and white in South Africa, Quite the opposite.
    Im trying to say that no matter how large or small the differences are, the dominant group will deny there are any differences or injustices or will do all they can to minimise those differences .

    The existence of equality laws do not mean that society has changed its attitudes and that the non dominant group no longer faces discrimination. Russia which had laws enacted to legalise LGBT people has now reversed those laws and there has been a large violent backlash against LGBT people going on in that country for some time. In fact it is when people begin to express their equality and no longer hide themselves that they are most prone to backlash from people who want things to go back to the way they were or at least to no longer have to face and actually live with difference.
    The existance of laws to create equality between the sexes does not mean people are actually treated equally.

    I believe it is up to people in the non dominant group to say if equality has been achieved or not. I don't think equality is something the dominant group can usually decide on and evaluate alone, thinking they can is usually just an expression of their dominance.

    You couldn't have picked a worse example for comparison than SA. If those are your views on the daily reality there, I suggest you educate yourself.

    On topic, Feminism is and has always been simply a trade union for women, and whatever Wikipedia (can't believe someone's resorted to quoting that site for their def) says, it has always worked exclusively for the advancement of the rights of one gender only.
    Now like all trade unions, at one point there was a need for this, but tgat time has passed.
    Of course the proponents of said trade union will now try to broaden the definition of what they stand for in order to justify their existence, but actions speak louder than words.

    I'll believe that Feminists want ACTUAL equality when I see them apply themselves to achieving it, rather than behaving as simply a trade union for women.

    Till that time comes, male Feminists are misguidedly harming the equality they seek by their very participation in this scam.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭iwantmydinner


    johnr1 wrote: »
    ...it has always worked exclusively for the advancement of the rights of one gender only.

    What's the problem with this? Where there is a gap in rights, what's the problem with working to advance the rights that have been left behind?


  • Posts: 12,694 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    A lot of this comes down to the issue of whether you are a structuralist in your thinking i.e that peoples choice ( men and women ) are constrained by the structures of the society they live in issue such as class gender etc., or whether you believe personal agency is more important in how people make choice.

    I would say male privilege exists in our society, however in the postmodern society we live in , it is not an important factor in how women's choices are shaped, we more or less have the freedom to author our own live and are pretty much free to do what we want with our lives, issues such as education and money are much more important constraints on how women make choices in the society we live in


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    What's the problem with this? Where there is a gap in rights, what's the problem with working to advance the rights that have been left behind?
    Nothing except some of us would prefer to work towards equality. The sole pursuit of rights for one group will not lead to equality. It's practically impossible to balance a scale by only adding weights to one side.

    Personally I (and by the sounds if it, others here) would rather try and balance the scale by adding (and subtracting) weights to BOTH sides.
    Equations only balance when we examine both sides of the "=".


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭iwantmydinner


    Zulu wrote: »
    Nothing except some of us would prefer to work towards equality. The sole pursuit of rights for one group will not lead to equality. It's practically impossible to balance a scale by only adding weights to one side.

    Personally I (and by the sounds if it, others here) would rather try and balance the scale by adding (and subtracting) weights to BOTH sides.
    Equations only balance when we examine both sides of the "=".

    Personally, I (and others here) feel like there's a far greater need on one side than the other. Therefore, I throw my weight behind that side.

    I'm cognisant of, and sympathetic to, areas where men's rights leg behind those of women (for example, in family law). I support those who work to correct that imbalance, but my focus is on women's rights as I feel there is a greater need there and I guess also because I am a woman.

    If you want to convince me that that is an unreasonable stance, I'm certainly open to hearing the argument.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,967 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    If you want to convince me that that is an unreasonable stance, I'm certainly open to hearing the argument.
    If you are not interested in the pursuit of equality, there little point trying to convince you of otherwise!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭iwantmydinner


    Zulu wrote: »
    If you are not interested in the pursuit of equality, there little point trying to convince you of otherwise!

    You read the rest of my post, right?


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