Unfair tax and social for unmarried couples

truebluesac · 28-07-2013 02:46PM #1

So my missus lost her job whilst pregnant on our nearly 2year old she got a year on the jobseekers and was means teasted , it was deemed i earn enough so her payments where then stopped iv no problem with this ,

The problem i have is that we are means tested as a couple yet i cannot claim her tax credits as we are not married and also i cannot claim tax credits for my daughter as we are not married and are not separated

We have no intention of getting married so dont suggest it .but It seems double standards to test us as a single income unit but treat us as separate income units for taxes .

Opinions

kneemos · 28-07-2013 03:08PM

truebluesac wrote: »

So my missus lost her job whilst pregnant on our nearly 2year old she got a year on the jobseekers and was means teasted , it was deemed i earn enough so her payments where then stopped iv no problem with this ,

The problem i have is that we are means tested as a couple yet i cannot claim her tax credits as we are not married and also i cannot claim tax credits for my daughter as we are not married and are not separated

We have no intention of getting married so dont suggest it .but It seems double standards to test us as a single income unit but treat us as separate income units for taxes .

Opinions

I'll keep my opinions to myself thank you very much.

Czarcasm · 28-07-2013 03:19PM

kneemos wrote: »

I'll keep my opinions to myself thank you very much.

Ahh kneemos, woeful stink of hypocrisy off that post in reply to someone with a tax issue when earlier on in another thread you posted this -

kneemos wrote: »

There's someone with a sex issue lets make fun of her.Juvenile morons.

It's not a double standard OP, there are numerous differences legally between co-habiting and married couples.

Revenue and social welfare are two completely different entities so they will have different assessment standards.

Zab · 28-07-2013 03:37PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

It's not a double standard OP, there are numerous differences legally between co-habiting and married couples.

It's completely a double standard. They're saying she can't get allowance because he's supposed to be supporting her but he can't get her credits even though he's supporting her.

I accept the fact that there are legal differences between the two, but that doesn't preclude it being a double standard.

Czarcasm · 28-07-2013 03:40PM

Zab wrote: »

It's completely a double standard. They're saying she can't get allowance because he's supposed to be supporting her but he can't get her credits even though he's supporting her.

I accept the fact that there are legal differences between the two, but that doesn't preclude it being a double standard.

You missed this bit -

Czarcasm wrote: »

Revenue and social welfare are two completely different entities so they will have different assessment standards.

Ellen Rose · 28-07-2013 03:43PM

It's the same whether married or single, tax credits were individualised afew years ago. You cannot claim any unused credit allowances for your spouse.

& you never could claim your child's credit allowance, not sure where you got that idea from

Zab · 28-07-2013 03:45PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

You missed this bit -

Different parts of the government? This situation is almost the dictionary definition for a double standard.

Zab · 28-07-2013 03:48PM

Ellen Rose wrote: »

It's the same whether married or single, tax credits were individualised afew years ago. You cannot claim any unused credit allowances for your spouse.

That's just not correct. Married couples can still be jointly assessed.

anncoates · 28-07-2013 03:50PM

Itc obviously not fair but I assume marriage is more of concrete proof that people are likely to be genuinely co habiting maybe?

Married couples can be assessed together or separately btw.

jlm29 · 28-07-2013 03:51PM

Ellen Rose wrote: »

It's the same whether married or single, tax credits were individualised afew years ago. You cannot claim any unused credit allowances for your spouse.

& you never could claim your child's credit allowance, not sure where you got that idea from

If living as a one parent family, you can claim a opf tax credit.

WildRosie · 28-07-2013 03:54PM

Ellen Rose wrote: »

It's the same whether married or single, tax credits were individualised afew years ago. You cannot claim any unused credit allowances for your spouse.

Incorrect. You can elect for joint assessment if you wish.

Ellen Rose wrote: »

you never could claim your child's credit allowance, not sure where you got that idea from

They are referring to the home carers credit I imagine.

Celly Smunt · 28-07-2013 03:54PM

Pretend you seperated,tell her to get single mothers,move into a council house and both of you live there.In fact,why don't you go on the dole as well as working!

(not serious)

hobochris · 28-07-2013 03:55PM

This annoys me also although I have not experienced it personally.

Should one person in a cohabiting relationship lose their job the other does not bare a legal responsibility to them(morally maybe, but legally not). Someone needs to take a case against the state so that a legal precident can be set.

Ellen Rose · 28-07-2013 03:55PM

You can claim a single parent allowance, widow allowance etc, but you cannot claim your spouses unused tax credits, 'individualisation of tax bands'

WildRosie · 28-07-2013 03:57PM

Ellen Rose wrote: »

You can claim a single parent allowance, widow allowance etc, but you cannot claim your spouses unused tax credits, 'individualisation of tax bands'

Really?

corktina · 28-07-2013 04:02PM

my Wife has most if not all my credits as I have no income

Ellen Rose · 28-07-2013 04:05PM

WildRosie wrote: »

Incorrect. You can elect for joint assessment if you wish.

They are referring to the home carers credit I imagine.

Only if the child has a disability

For years a married couple could elect to be single, separate or jointly assessed.
Single assesment meant that they could not use their spouses unused tax credit,
Separate assessment, each kept their own credit allowance but could transfer any unused to the other spouse, husband or wife.
Joint assessment, one spouse had both credits, thus were assessed as one person. The other spouse, if working, were taxed at the higher rate straight away.

The individualisation of tax credits was introduced in a budget approx 8 years ago, can't remember the exact year, it was during the boom years

Stheno · 28-07-2013 04:08PM

Ellen Rose wrote: »

Only if the child has a disability

For years a married couple could elect to be single, separate or jointly assessed.
Single assesment meant that they could not use their spouses unused tax credit,
Separate assessment, each kept their own credit allowance but could transfer any unused to the other spouse, husband or wife.
Joint assessment, one spouse had both credits, thus were assessed as one person. The other spouse, if working, were taxed at the higher rate straight away.

The individualisation of tax credits was introduced in a budget approx 8 years ago, can't remember the exact year, it was during the boom years

Would you please read the links, you are incorrect, the system is still joint or seperate assessment. It has not changed.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/leaflets/it2.html#section4

Joint Assessment
What is Joint Assessment?

Joint Assessment is usually the most favourable basis of assessment for couples in a marriage or civil partnership. It is automatically given by your local Revenue office once you have advised them of your marriage or civil partnership registration, but this doesn't prevent you from electing for either of the other options.

Under Joint Assessment, the tax credits and standard rate band can be allocated between spouses or civil partners to suit their circumstances. For example:

If only one spouse or civil partner has taxable income, all tax credits and the standard rate band will be given to that individual
If both spouses or civil partners have taxable income, they can decide which spouse or civil partner of them is to be the assessable spouseor nominated civil partner and request their local Revenue office to allocate the tax credits and standard rate band between them in whatever way they wish. [PAYE tax credit, employment expenses and the basic standard rate band of €23,800 are non transferable.]

Where the Revenue office does not receive a request for the allocation of tax credits and reliefs in a particular way, it will normally give all the tax credits (other than the other spouse's or civil partner's PAYE and expense tax credits) to the assessable spouse or nominated civil partner. See section on standard rate band for information.

The assessable spouse must complete the return of income for the couple and is chargeable to tax on the joint income of the couple.

Ellen Rose · 28-07-2013 04:12PM

Yes......

. [PAYE tax credit, employment expenses and the basic standard rate band of €23,800 are non transferable]

If I'm incorrect please explain this, copied from your link 'non transferable'

WildRosie · 28-07-2013 04:14PM

Ellen Rose wrote: »

Only if the child has a disability

Incorrect.
Dependent Person

Must not be a spouse or civil partner
Is a child for whom Department of Social Protection Child Benefit is payable
Is a person aged 65 years or over
Is a person who is permanently incapacitated by reason of mental/physical infirmity.

Ellen Rose wrote: »

For years a married couple could elect to be single, separate or jointly assessed.
Single assesment meant that they could not use their spouses unused tax credit,
Separate assessment, each kept their own credit allowance but could transfer any unused to the other spouse, husband or wife.
Joint assessment, one spouse had both credits, thus were assessed as one person. The other spouse, if working, were taxed at the higher rate straight away.

The individualisation of tax credits was introduced in a budget approx 8 years ago, can't remember the exact year, it was during the boom years

Read the link I posted earlier.

downonthefarm · 28-07-2013 04:16PM

I may be wide of the mark here and don't want to insult anyone but in my experience the only way to get ahead is to play the system. it seems you are rewarded in Ireland for being a slapper with numerous baby daddies. where the ones who stay together and try to create proper family ect are punished and get it up the ass at every hands turn

Ellen Rose · 28-07-2013 04:19PM

Yes, you qualify for child allowance, you do not get tax credit for children unless there is a disability or such.

Individualisation of tax bands was introduced in 2000 budget by Charlie McGreevey

hatrickpatrick · 28-07-2013 04:23PM

BS in my view. You're either a couple or your not, you can't be a couple in one form of government business but not in another. Either tax and means test people as a couple or don't, but you can't do one and not the other.

Ellen Rose · 28-07-2013 04:23PM

downonthefarm wrote: »

I may be wide of the mark here and don't want to insult anyone but in my experience the only way to get ahead is to play the system. it seems you are rewarded in Ireland for being a slapper with numerous baby daddies. where the ones who stay together and try to create proper family ect are punished and get it up the ass at every hands turn

I'm with you.

In the UK they have now capped social benefit (inclusive) at 27k, also child support capped at 2 children.
Only a matter of time before they do similar here

Stheno · 28-07-2013 04:27PM

Ellen Rose wrote: »

Yes, you qualify for child allowance, you do not get tax credit for children unless there is a disability or such.

Individualisation of tax bands was introduced in 2000 budget by Charlie McGreevey

Yes but one spouse can use some of the other spouses allowance. The standard rate cut off point for a married couple with one person working is 41,800 compared to 32,800 for a single person so they pay half the tax (20 as opposed to 41%) on that 9,000 than two single people or a couple living together.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/income_tax/how_your_tax_is_calculated.html

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

BS in my view. You're either a couple or your not, you can't be a couple in one form of government business but not in another. Either tax and means test people as a couple or don't, but you can't do one and not the other.

I read somewhere once that's it's something to do with marriage and it's references in the constitution

Sir Humphrey Appleby · 28-07-2013 04:30PM

Zab wrote: »

It's completely a double standard. They're saying she can't get allowance because he's supposed to be supporting her but he can't get her credits even though he's supporting her.

I accept the fact that there are legal differences between the two, but that doesn't preclude it being a double standard.

it is a double standard, two organs of the same state , one says you are a couple and dependant on each other, the other says you are strangers and cannot share entitlements.

Zab · 28-07-2013 04:31PM

Ellen Rose wrote: »

If I'm incorrect please explain this, copied from your link 'non transferable'

The bulk of the average person's tax credits come from their Single Credit and their PAYE Credit. The PAYE credit you get for being a PAYE worker cannot be transferred, but the Single Credit can. If your partner doesn't work then they don't get a PAYE credit to transfer in the first place.

WildRosie · 28-07-2013 04:32PM

Ellen Rose wrote: »

Yes, you qualify for child allowance, you do not get tax credit for children unless there is a disability or such.

There is no requirement that the child be disabled, only that they be entitled to child benefit. If the child is too old to get child benefit, then they must have a disability. From Revenue:

a child for whom Social Welfare Child Benefit is payable - this includes all children under 16 and children in full-time education under 18

Can you post a link to backup your point? Here's one to back up mine.

With reference to transferring the tax credits and SRCOP between spouses, there is always an element that can't be transferred. But for non married couples, no element at all can be transferred.

DebDynamite · 28-07-2013 04:39PM

Completely agree OP.

But yet developers owing millions of euros can transfer assets into their wife's name so they cannot be touched.

Hobbes · 28-07-2013 04:58PM

We have no intention of getting married so dont suggest it .

Why? Just get a civil union with a prenup. Unless you aren't living with her, and no one else is planning to get married to her, then what's the issue?

truebluesac · 28-07-2013 06:00PM

Ellen Rose wrote: »

It's the same whether married or single, tax credits were individualised afew years ago. You cannot claim any unused credit allowances for your spouse.

& you never could claim your child's credit allowance, not sure where you got that idea from

A married couple can claim the other tax credits .

If i was separated and taking a child over night i can claim tax credits for the child

Unfair tax and social for unmarried couples

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