Fixed Penalty Notices for Cycling by end of year

CramCycle · 24-07-2013 02:01PM

what_traffic wrote: »

Try stepping out of your own shoes. Could your parents do the same?
Could you do it at 15kph? Would you feel as comfortable doing it at this speed?

I could and would, I actually just looked at my Strava account, apparently I do it at an average of 21kph. Thinking it through I slow on the attempt to merge over to ensure I get a break. Considering when I do it during the day, I often see other cyclists doing it slower than me, not many but a few, it is far from impossible. The light breaks make it more than doable. There is usually a red behind you giving a short break in traffic, or a red at the light as you approach, giving you a chance to filter over. I have done it with Greens, and cars have slowed and given space, they can see where I am going by my indicating with my hands, although my road position should show where I am going.

monument · 24-07-2013 02:36PM

The designed or not, turn left ot turn right maneuver seems like a good solution for those without the "skill" to cross a number of lanes with traffic often at 60-70km/h+.

galwaycyclist · 24-07-2013 02:45PM

monument wrote: »

The designed or not, turn left ot turn right maneuver seems like a good solution for those without the "skill" to cross a number of lanes with traffic often at 60-70km/h+.

Agreed - sometimes called a box turn. But if you have been invited unknowingly into a left-turn only lane by some council roads engineer and are now stuck inside a stream of turning motor traffic - how do you get across the junction to do the box turn?

CramCycle · 24-07-2013 03:01PM

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Agreed - sometimes called a box turn. But if you have been invited unknowingly into a left-turn only lane by some council roads engineer and are now stuck inside a stream of turning motor traffic - how do you get across the junction to do the box turn?

2 options, complete the left turn and do a U turn down that road, impractical.
The other is to keep to the right of that left turn, let left turning traffic filter on your left and merge over to the left for the stalled crossing traffic after clearing half the junction and wait till you get a green.

Robertd_07 · 24-07-2013 03:02PM

CramCycle wrote: »

I could and would, I actually just looked at my Strava account, apparently I do it at an average of 21kph. Thinking it through I slow on the attempt to merge over to ensure I get a break. Considering when I do it during the day, I often see other cyclists doing it slower than me, not many but a few, it is far from impossible. The light breaks make it more than doable. There is usually a red behind you giving a short break in traffic, or a red at the light as you approach, giving you a chance to filter over. I have done it with Greens, and cars have slowed and given space, they can see where I am going by my indicating with my hands, although my road position should show where I am going.

I make this turn everyday too, usually at peak rush-hour, and it can be quite intimidating, given the volume and speed of the traffic.
I don't cycle in the cycle lane on this section, and generally move to the right of the bus lane just after the pedestrian lights, then cross to the right-turn lane in a break in traffic. The part I find most difficult is taxis/coaches coming up the bus lane (quite often going faster than the marked 60kph limit) making it difficult to get in position for a lane change.
Most of the cyclists I see turning at this junction use the pedestrian lights.

I feel that, while this junction is difficult, it's straightforward. If you're a confident cyclist you know what moves to make and when.
On the other hand, the junction at the N11/Fosters Avenue heading north is, in my opinion, one of the most poorly thought out junctions I've had the misfortune to come across. (Here - although it's been modified since this image was taken)

du Maurier · 24-07-2013 03:04PM

galwaycyclist wrote: »

I would argue that the use of separate left-filter lights at traffic signals constitutes negligent and incompetent road design, unless the designer has provided somewhere for straight on cyclists to wait when they reach the top of the queue eg an ASL/Bike box, or a central cycle lane to the right of the left turn lane.

Cyclists will almost always be fed into the junction on the left and the fact that some engineer has marked a left-turn lane does not in my view absolve them from a duty to consider how cyclists might reasonably be expected to use the junction.

If a cyclist finds themselves in such a position, wanting to go ahead but stuck in a left turn lane that has a green signal they face a snap decision to push forward across the stop line - technically illegal, or pull in the left and get trapped inside a stream of turning traffic. Neither is acceptable.

Quite succinctly put. I'd concur with it being primarily a design issue.

Trhiggy83 · 24-07-2013 03:09PM

another way of taxing people..........what next, country is an absolute pile of horse sh#te

Raam · 24-07-2013 03:09PM

Trhiggy83 wrote: »

another way of taxing people..........what next, country is an absolute pile of horse sh#te

This so called tax is entirely avoidable.

Chips Lovell · 24-07-2013 03:11PM

Trhiggy83 wrote: »

another way of taxing people..........what next, country is an absolute pile of horse sh#te

How else do you suggest we penalise people for breaking road traffic law. Imprisonment? Flogging?

oflahero · 24-07-2013 03:29PM

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Sorry but you've missed the point. The central issue here is where people are expected to merge to the right to go straight ahead.

This problem has been solved in a few places. Here's an example in Rathfarnham/Templeogue (heading eastwards). You'll be well familiar with it if you do many spins out the N81. What do you think? Admittedly, road planners had a bit more space to work with here than had it been in the city centre.

https://www.google.ie/maps/preview#!data=!1m8!1m3!1d3!2d-6.310362!3d53.292872!2m2!1f31.44!2f66.63!4f75!2m4!1e1!2m2!1srRSgdcWCHDH-jlLVsQFd3A!2e0&fid=5

bambergbike · 24-07-2013 03:33PM

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

How else do you suggest we penalise people for breaking road traffic law. Imprisonment? Flogging?

The punishment should fit the crime.

Sample crime: Park in a cycle lane

Sample punishment: Pay a fine which is spent on ensuring you spend two hours being forced to play a computer game (with realistic graphics) in which you virtually "cycle" along city streets. When you cycle too close to a parked car, you get doored. When you move in after passing parked cars and then move out again abruptly, you get rear-ended. When you consistently take a line roughly where the passenger wheels of the cars are, nothing happens to you, but a queue of traffic builds up behind you. You learn that this queue of traffic is not produced by the cyclist, but by the parked cars blocking the cycle lane.

bambergbike · 24-07-2013 03:37PM

oflahero wrote: »

This problem has been solved in a few places. Here's an example in Rathfarnham/Templeogue (heading eastwards). You'll be well familiar with it if you do many spins out the N81. What do you think? Admittedly, road planners had a bit more space to work with here than had it been in the city centre.

https://www.google.ie/maps/preview#!data=!1m8!1m3!1d3!2d-6.310362!3d53.292872!2m2!1f31.44!2f66.63!4f75!2m4!1e1!2m2!1srRSgdcWCHDH-jlLVsQFd3A!2e0&fid=5

The streetview image only shows cars, I don't know what other traffic uses that road. I wouldn't personally object to using the on-road cycle lane if I had a car on either side of me, but I would be less happy if I had a truck on either side of me. The pink lane looks wide enough to accomodate a bicycle, but not wide enough to provide much of a buffer between bicycles and other vehicles.

Chips Lovell · 24-07-2013 03:38PM

I'm in favour of simple solutions with low costs of administration. We should empower the Gardaí to punish all offenders, whether cyclists or motorists, with one powerful kick in the crotch.

manwithaplan · 24-07-2013 03:42PM

bambergbike wrote: »

The punishment should fit the crime.

Sample crime: Park in a cycle lane

Sample punishment: Pay a fine which is spent on ensuring you spend two hours being forced to play a computer game (with realistic graphics) in which you virtually "cycle" along city streets. When you cycle too close to a parked car, you get doored. When you move in after passing parked cars and then move out again abruptly, you get rear-ended. When you consistently take a line roughly where the passenger wheels of the cars are, nothing happens to you, but a queue of traffic builds up behind you. You learn that this queue of traffic is not produced by the cyclist, but by the parked cars blocking the cycle lane.

This will produce one of two results:

1. "My eyes were opened today. I now understand how my actions affect others. I feel genuine empathy towards my fellow road users.", or

2. "Joe, you wouldn't believe what they have us doing now. Video games. I was expecting ET to appear in me basket and take me off to see the feckin' space invaders. They should use the e-voting machines for it, wha? I'd vote for them to cop themselves on."

oflahero · 24-07-2013 05:47PM

bambergbike wrote: »

The streetview image only shows cars, I don't know what other traffic uses that road. I wouldn't personally object to using the on-road cycle lane if I had a car on either side of me, but I would be less happy if I had a truck on either side of me. The pink lane looks wide enough to accomodate a bicycle, but not wide enough to provide much of a buffer between bicycles and other vehicles.

Ah jaysus. What do you want? A flyover?

* I'd love flyover bike lanes myself - no lights and extra climbing practice. I'm prepared to pay a flyover bike lane tax

Qualitymark · 24-07-2013 05:52PM

oflahero wrote: »

Ah jaysus. What do you want? A flyover?

* I'd love flyover bike lanes myself - no lights and extra climbing practice. I'm prepared to pay a flyover bike lane tax

Just move to Copenhagen http://www.copenhagenize.com/2011/12/innovative-elevated-cycle-track-in.html

bambergbike · 24-07-2013 06:43PM

oflahero wrote: »

Ah jaysus. What do you want? A flyover?

Without the cycle facility I would be:

in a regular "car" lane with some empty space on my right and my left
with maybe a truck in front of me, a truck behind me and trucks in the other lanes (but no trucks right next to me, close enough to touch)

Now that a cyclist facility has been jammed into what probably used to be a lane line, I could find myself stuck between two "real" lanes in a half-width lane with each of my elbows touching a different truck and less space to myself.

So should I see the new design as an improvement? A "solved" problem?

CramCycle · 24-07-2013 06:53PM

bambergbike wrote: »

Without the cycle facility I would be:
in a regular "car" lane with some empty space on my right and my left

with maybe a truck in front of me, a truck behind me and trucks in the other lanes (but no trucks right next to me, close enough to touch)

Now that a cyclist facility has been jammed into what probably used to be a lane line, I could find myself stuck between two "real" lanes in a half-width lane with each of my elbows touching a different truck and less space to myself.

So should I see the new design as an improvement? A "solved" problem?

The red there is more of a reminder than an actual lane (there is no signs up remember). Coming from Spawell, turning left at a T you find yourself coming to this junction either on the road or on the cycle path, it splits at the picture because unless you are very uncomfortable with road cycling or you are turning left, the raised cycle path puts you in a horrible position at the next junction. If traffic is stopped at the red, use the red markings, if it is not stopped, indicate out and take the lane slightly to the left of the red markings. Even someone going at 10kph will be on the road and at the junction within 10seconds. The road widens up after the junction so there is no cycle track as it is unnecessary (bar the odd car parked there). I cycled this road for 4 years and not once seen any issue with any cyclist of any level, there were racers belting it at +40, there were guys and gals on rusted hybrids barely going faster than walking pace.

nomdeboardie · 24-07-2013 08:19PM

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Listening to Pat Kenny, the majority of texters seem to have an issue with cyclist in general. Damien of the Dublin Cycling Campaign is arguing his points well, but Finian McGrath cycling seems to be picking and choosing examples, which were probably complaints from his constituents.

Including the 'issue' of cyclists not using cycling lanes :rolleyes: Pat did bring up the example of the N11's cycle track's roller-coaster effect, but not the fact that any obligation to use them was removed by last October's SI. I sent an email to offer this info, but it wasn't read by the end of the programme

nomdeboardie · 24-07-2013 08:19PM

galwaycyclist wrote: »

I would argue that the use of separate left-filter lights at traffic signals constitutes negligent and incompetent road design, unless the designer has provided somewhere for straight on cyclists to wait when they reach the top of the queue eg an ASL/Bike box, or a central cycle lane to the right of the left turn lane.

Cyclists will almost always be fed into the junction on the left and the fact that some engineer has marked a left-turn lane does not in my view absolve them from a duty to consider how cyclists might reasonably be expected to use the junction.

If a cyclist finds themselves in such a position, wanting to go ahead but stuck in a left turn lane that has a green signal they face a snap decision to push forward across the stop line - technically illegal, or pull in the left and get trapped inside a stream of turning traffic. Neither is acceptable.

OK, I'm not going to get into the negligent-incompetent arguement, but here's another example:

Temple Hill, south of Blackrock:
https://maps.google.ie/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=temple+hill&aq=&sll=53.343275,-6.281798&sspn=0.005784,0.008905&vpsrc=0&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Cn%C3%B3c+an+Teampaill&ll=53.296388,-6.170003&spn=0.011529,0.01781&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.296519,-6.170083&panoid=RGImefx7sVmIFwl7Ug04oA&cbp=12,135.52,,0,1.41
Left lane is for traffic splitting off left onto Monkstown Road or continuing straight ahead. When cycling straight on full green I 'take the lane' a few metres before the junction to avoid being swept left. However a portion of the sequence has the leftmost light green while the straight-on are red (left filter). If I stop at the line I block traffic, unless I hug the kerb. if I do the latter i might not be able to get away again through left-turning traffic. So I usually go past the line (and left-most light) and stop to the right of the little island (and before the lights at the other side of the junction), out of the way of all traffic. So technicaly this is illegal(?), but I think it makes the most sense

oflahero · 24-07-2013 09:48PM

bambergbike wrote: »

Without the cycle facility I would be:
in a regular "car" lane with some empty space on my right and my left

You regularly take the whole lane at the lights? From observation, I don't think that's most people's experience (or mine). For them, this is an improvement. Lights always seem to be against me though, which is a downer as I'm nearly home at that point and the stop/start will bring my average speed from 28 down to 27.9...

TheChizler · 25-07-2013 12:50AM

PerrDub wrote: »

We would just hope that the Gardai will know the actual laws..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_lane_marking

Is that's what's appeared on the quays in Cork in recent times? Every so often there's just a bike symbol painted on the ground, no signage or any sort of explanation. Thought it meant watch out for bikes or something. Suppose that's the gist of it...

el tel · 10-08-2013 06:37AM

CYCLING IRELAND STATEMENT REGARDING ON THE SPOT FINES:

“Cycling Ireland believes that all road users should obey the rules of the road, whether they are cyclists or motorists. We support the introduction of measures that ensure these rules are obeyed. Road users should respect each other.”

Chips Lovell · 10-08-2013 10:40AM

Fair play. Nice to see them adopt a sensible stance.

rollingscone · 10-08-2013 11:06AM

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Fair play. Nice to see them adopt a sensible stance.

This. I'm just waiting for the day that I get taken out by some RLJer shooting by on my inside while I'm stopped at lights.

hueylewis · 10-08-2013 12:58PM

Completely in favour of punishing reckless cycling behaviour. Same rules should apply to all road users.

Qualitymark · 10-08-2013 06:56PM

hueylewis wrote: »

Completely in favour of punishing reckless cycling behaviour. Same rules should apply to all road users.

They already do.

But I don't hear any talk of fining drivers on the spot for crashing the lights, eh?

hueylewis · 10-08-2013 07:06PM

Qualitymark wrote: »

They already do.

But I don't hear any talk of fining drivers on the spot for crashing the lights, eh?

I could have sworn there was a fine and points for cars caught running reds?

Beasty · 10-08-2013 07:16PM

hueylewis wrote: »

I could have sworn there was a fine and points for cars caught running reds?

Yep, minimum 2 points and €80 fine

@Qualitymark, there's no talk of it as these penalties have been in place for some time

Qualitymark · 11-08-2013 12:32AM

hueylewis wrote: »

I could have sworn there was a fine and points for cars caught running reds?

Not an on-the-spot fine, which is what's being suggested for cyclists.

Fixed Penalty Notices for Cycling by end of year

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