Fixed Penalty Notices for Cycling by end of year

galwaycyclist · 24-07-2013 12:12PM

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

What about all of these poor beleaguered cyclists who need to change lanes when they want to go right or left? It's not rocket science and I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill here.

Since when should cyclists normally have to merge across a lane of following traffic to get into a left lane?

Again disingenuous much?

A lot of less confident cyclists are very uncomfortable with merging across following traffic to get into a right-turning lane. Many prefer to get off and walk in that situation. Now we are to understand from you, that going straight should be treated the same way and they should get off and walk if they don't like it?

Again disingenuous much?

Tony EH · 24-07-2013 12:18PM

ashleey wrote: »

I've been overtaken dangerously by about a foot clearance by fast moving traffic while cycling this week in Donegal. Any chance of clamping down on that while they are at it?

I've lost count at how many times I've been overtaken by cars, while I'm overtaking a car.

Perhaps a clampdown on that is needed?

Where are you now Finian?

Lumen · 24-07-2013 12:23PM

galwaycyclist wrote: »

A lot of less confident cyclists are very uncomfortable with merging across following traffic to get into a right-turning lane. Many prefer to get off and walk in that situation. Now we are to understand from you, that going straight should be treated the same way and they should get of and walk if they don't like it?

Changing lanes and merging left or right into traffic are very basic road skills, whether on a bicycle or in a car.

galwaycyclist · 24-07-2013 12:26PM

Lumen wrote: »

Changing lanes and merging left or right into traffic are very basic road skills, whether on a bicycle or in a car.

No they are very advanced road skills. They would be level 3 under the UK National Standard for cycling instruction.

droidus · 24-07-2013 12:27PM

Moving across three lanes of traffic travelling at 60 kph on a bicycle is not a 'basic' skill.

Lumen · 24-07-2013 12:28PM

galwaycyclist wrote: »

No they are very advanced road skills. They would be level 3 under the UK National Standard for cycling instruction.

Clearly our definitions of "very advanced" differ.

My benchmark for "basic" would be "what you need to be able to do to pass a driving test".

Tony EH · 24-07-2013 12:29PM

rubadub wrote: »

I believe it can be safer to cycle slowly, evidently lots of gardai do too, or maybe just not so unsafe that the see fit to stop somebody. If you are walking with a bike beside you it takes up more space and protrusions like pedals and handlebars stick out more. On grafton street I have seen the same gardai stop idiots racing down the street, and I have seen them allowing people at a snails pace go on by. Cop on, and a realisation of what the law actually set out to prevent.

This is it, though. A fool racing down a crowded pedestrian area or footpath deserves a fine. But if you're cycling slowly and resposibly, then you're no more dangerous than most people with prams.

CramCycle · 24-07-2013 12:33PM

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Again disingenuous much?

Merging across traffic lanes is a skill that anyone cycling in a city or heavily built up area should really come to terms with. Uncomfortable or not, it is still a skill they will need to commute safely, regardless of road design.

As for the junction mentioned earlier, I did not think it was left turn only (will look when I go into work later). I thought it was left and straight on. The left filter is really short and often gets blocked by a straight ahead driver. If a cyclist stays to the right and at the ASL. The ped lights go next, and then it goes to a straight ahead green. So no need to freak out about merging, will check it out later though.

droidus · 24-07-2013 12:33PM

Clearly our definitions of "very advanced" differ.

My benchmark for "basic" would be "what you need to be able to do to pass a driving test".

Yeah, the difference being is that motorists are more likely to yield for other motorists, that motorists can consistently travel at 60kmph, and that motorists aren't automatically killed if they (or another driver) makes a mistake during the manoeuvre.

Moving across multiple lanes of high speed traffic is possible, but its tricky and dangerous. Moving across multiple lanes of low-medium speed traffic (such as on the quays) is much easier.

Lumen · 24-07-2013 12:34PM

droidus wrote: »

Moving across three lanes of traffic travelling at 60 kph on a bicycle is not a 'basic' skill.

Sixty kilometres an hour! That's terrifying. How do people ever manage to cross a road on foot?

Maybe, given all the pedestrian deaths, we should have "advanced pedestrians skills" courses, with "crossing the road" deferred to level 8 black-belt, one level below "walking down stairs whilst carrying a tea tray".

droidus · 24-07-2013 12:36PM

Lumen wrote: »

Sixty kilometres an hour! That's terrifying. How do people ever manage to cross a road on foot?

Maybe, given all the pedestrian deaths, we should have "advanced pedestrians skills" courses, with "crossing the road" deferred to level 8 black-belt, one level below "walking down stairs whilst carrying a tea tray".

:rolleyes:

They stop and wait for a gap. Which is what most cyclists do as well. That is not the same as changing lanes, as well you know.

And of course, it's worth mentioning that on any 60kmph road, most drivers are breaking the limit and are probably closer to 70.

manwithaplan · 24-07-2013 12:42PM

droidus wrote: »

70.

The good lord bless us and save us. Is there no end to the madness?

magicbastarder · 24-07-2013 12:43PM

Lumen wrote: »

My benchmark for "basic" would be "what you need to be able to do to pass a driving test".

so cyclists should need to be able to pass a driving test to be able to perform basic manouevers?

magicbastarder · 24-07-2013 12:44PM

Lumen wrote: »

Sixty kilometres an hour! That's terrifying. How do people ever manage to cross a road on foot?

you're moving the goalposts.

droidus · 24-07-2013 12:48PM

manwithaplan wrote: »

The good lord bless us and save us. Is there no end to the madness?

Apologies. I know that you pros have no problem travelling at 80kmph down the N11, cutting across multiple lanes with ease like a swallow swooping through the air on a warm summer night, but the rest of us mere mortals are obviously less gracefully superhuman in our cycling ability.

CramCycle · 24-07-2013 12:49PM

droidus wrote: »

Moving across multiple lanes of high speed traffic is possible, but its tricky and dangerous. Moving across multiple lanes of low-medium speed traffic (such as on the quays) is much easier.

droidus wrote: »

Moving across three lanes of traffic travelling at 60 kph on a bicycle is not a 'basic' skill.

Where was this a scenario, we were talking about one junction where at most it was one lane, and in most scenarios it is moving from the right of a lane to the left of the same lane, the minimum required if turning the other way. In this scenario, the traffic is either moving from stopped or at a highly reduced speed due to the road layout (let alone the law) forcing a speed reduction. I am very confused

manwithaplan · 24-07-2013 12:51PM

droidus wrote: »

Apologies...but the rest of us mere mortals are obviously less gracefully superhuman in our cycling ability.

That's OK. I understand.

magicbastarder · 24-07-2013 12:51PM

CramCycle wrote: »

Where was this a scenario

post #330.

droidus · 24-07-2013 12:51PM

CramCycle wrote: »

Where was this a scenario, we were talking about one junction where at most it was one lane, and in most scenarios it is moving from the right of a lane to the left of the same lane, the minimum required if turning the other way. In this scenario, the traffic is either moving from stopped or at a highly reduced speed due to the road layout (let alone the law) forcing a speed reduction. I am very confused

to take a more extreme example, not one being discussed above.
if a cyclist going southbound on the N11 wants to take a right onto brewery road (the right hand turn just after john of gods), they have to leave the bus lane, and cross at least two lanes of traffic doing about 60kph, while going uphill, or else get off the bike and become a pedestrian, and cross at the pedestrian lights. the road infrastructure simply does not (and very possibly cannot) cater for cyclists in scenarios like this.

See also, the N2, and I believe the Malahide road (northbound at Clare Hall) was another example cited recently.

Lumen · 24-07-2013 12:52PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

you're moving the goalposts.

No I'm not. Using a road involves dealing with fast moving things.

Fortunately, millions of years of evolution have given us a central nervous system commanded by billions of neurons, capable of amazing body-brain feats such as catching a sliotar and standing on one leg.

Amazingly, that same set of physical capabilities allows us to sit on a bicycle and move amongst streams of vehicles with little difficulty.

droidus · 24-07-2013 12:56PM

It really is baffling to me how cyclists get tagged with the 'arrogant' label so often...

magicbastarder · 24-07-2013 12:56PM

you cited pedestrians being able to cross the road. they have specific pedestrian infrastructure and lights to assist. which the cyclist can use, but it renders the debate about cyclists and the ROTR moot if the cyclist has to abandon the road.

manwithaplan · 24-07-2013 12:59PM

To counteract my facetiousness, of course I acknowledge that road design has to take account of cyclists. Multi-lane roads with few or no alternative routes for cyclists are a problem and I have no doubt that having to tackle a right turn on such a road or negotiating a multi-lane roundabout doesn't exactly make cycling attractive for many people. However, there is a limit. If a short left turn filter lane or having to cross a couple of lanes in the city centre to make a right turn is a major problem, people should really brush up on their cycling skills rather than look for these things to be systematically designed out.

magicbastarder · 24-07-2013 12:59PM

getting back to the original debate, does anyone know how this went? was it rolled out?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9067129/Paris-cyclists-given-right-to-break-traffic-laws.html

Beasty · 24-07-2013 01:21PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

getting back to the original debate, does anyone know how this went? was it rolled out?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/9067129/Paris-cyclists-given-right-to-break-traffic-laws.html

Yeah - there were a load of guys who had a field day cycling round the Arc de Triomphe on Sunday and every one of them survived

CramCycle · 24-07-2013 01:23PM

droidus wrote: »

post#330

There are two solutions to this, very simple. One, start merging very early and keep to the right hand side of the southbound traffic in good time, there are s many lights here, it is far from impossible to find a gap, I do this at 25kph with no difficulty.

The other is to stop at the junction, dismount and wait for the pedestrian crossing. I don't think it is the right way but it is a viable solution till your confidence improves.

galwaycyclist · 24-07-2013 01:25PM

manwithaplan wrote: »

To counteract my facetiousness, of course I acknowledge that road design has to take account of cyclists. Multi-lane roads with few or no alternative routes for cyclists are a problem and I have no doubt that having to tackle a right turn on such a road or negotiating a multi-lane roundabout doesn't exactly make cycling attractive for many people. However, there is a limit. If a short left turn filter lane or having to cross a couple of lanes in the city centre to make a right turn is a major problem, people should really brush up on their cycling skills rather than look for these things to be systematically designed out.

Sorry but you've missed the point. The central issue here is where people are expected to merge to the right to go straight ahead. A short (<30m) left filter might be ok where it clearly leaves the main carriageway on a separate alignment and enough space remains for cyclists to proceed straight on. The issue here is where the left-hand lane becomes a left-turn only lane complete with a separate left-green signal, leaving cyclists with nowhere to go except merge right or stay trapped on the left. If you don't have examples in Dublin then I can provide some from Galway.

magicbastarder · 24-07-2013 01:27PM

CramCycle wrote: »

There are two solutions to this, very simple. One, start merging very early and keep to the right hand side of the southbound traffic in good time, there are s many lights here, it is far from impossible to find a gap, I do this at 25kph with no difficulty.

The other is to stop at the junction, dismount and wait for the pedestrian crossing. I don't think it is the right way but it is a viable solution till your confidence improves.

it's not a small hill for someone who is not moderately fit, and the traffic would be fairly free flowing at 60kph, so is not for the faint hearted. as i mentioned, dismounting and using the pedestrian crossing is an option, but that is cementing the notion that the ROTR cannot apply fully to cyclists.

what_traffic · 24-07-2013 01:42PM

CramCycle wrote: »

There are two solutions to this, very simple. One, start merging very early and keep to the right hand side of the southbound traffic in good time, there are s many lights here, it is far from impossible to find a gap, I do this at 25kph with no difficulty.

The other is to stop at the junction, dismount and wait for the pedestrian crossing. I don't think it is the right way but it is a viable solution till your confidence improves.

Try stepping out of your own shoes. Could your parents do the same?
Could you do it at 15kph? Would you feel as comfortable doing it at this speed?

magicbastarder · 24-07-2013 01:49PM

here's the junction i mentioned (in the distance), for anyone who doesn't know it:

https://maps.google.com/?ll=53.284652,-6.194524&spn=0.0007,0.002064&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=53.284652,-6.194524&panoid=ws-SNNwkVmZTDqgblPfJCw&cbp=12,172.04,,0,19.42

Fixed Penalty Notices for Cycling by end of year

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