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Fixed Penalty Notices for Cycling by end of year

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    du Maurier wrote: »
    Just as an aside (a few pages back) to refer to seemingly hazardous/difficult junctions to negotiate, but this one on Macken Street usually has a number of car horns blaring and motorists frustrated with cyclists.

    There's a left turn signal currently....
    I've been going this way for the last few weeks and I wouldn't consider it a particularly bad junction or a "debacle", the same quandry occurs in many other junctions.

    The issue really is that of information. Left-only lanes are rarer than right-only lanes, so most people assume that if you're going straight ahead at a junction, you line up in the left-hand lane. The Macken St junction is perpetually busy, so unless you're familiar with the junction you won't see the arrows painted on the road and so you could easily line up in the wrong lane. Cyclists and motorists do it all the time.
    All that's needed is a simple roadside information sign showing the correct lane to get into. They should probably also remove the parking on that side of the road.

    As a cyclist, position yourself in front of the right lane of traffic. If you find yourself in the middle of the junction with cars going straight in both lanes, you just assert yourself. Hold your position, which will prevent cars in the right-hand lane from overtaking you, wait for the cars in the left hand lane to overtake you on the left and then move into the left-hand side.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    buffalo wrote: »
    What to do?

    Fire the people who come up with such junction designs. Not part of our public service culture unfortunately.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    seamus wrote: »
    I've been going this way for the last few weeks and I wouldn't consider it a particularly bad junction or a "debacle", the same quandry occurs in many other junctions.

    The issue really is that of information. Left-only lanes are rarer than right-only lanes, so most people assume that if you're going straight ahead at a junction, you line up in the left-hand lane. The Macken St junction is perpetually busy, so unless you're familiar with the junction you won't see the arrows painted on the road and so you could easily line up in the wrong lane. Cyclists and motorists do it all the time.
    All that's needed is a simple roadside information sign showing the correct lane to get into. They should probably also remove the parking on that side of the road.

    As a cyclist, position yourself in front of the right lane of traffic. If you find yourself in the middle of the junction with cars going straight in both lanes, you just assert yourself. Hold your position, which will prevent cars in the right-hand lane from overtaking you, wait for the cars in the left hand lane to overtake you on the left and then move into the left-hand side.

    Providing information might offer a partial solution in that it would theoretically absolve the designer of a duty to design competently.

    While some cyclists, myself included, might be able to handle "taking the lane" in a central traffic lane with cars passing either side I don't think it is reasonable to deliberately place cyclists in such a position. It remains in my view an incompetent design.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Agreed completely, in reality the path of the straight-on cyclist should be laid out very clearly using a lane or whatever and the appropriate yield signage displayed to drivers who would have to cross the cyclists' path in order to turn left.

    In the above example, you could also extend the pedestrian island on the left so that it blocks the left lane and forces drivers in the left-hand lane to either turn or merge rather than allowing them to plough straight across. This wouldn't affect any of the other traffic, but would prevent the situation where a cyclist is mid-junction and caught between two cars going straight.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84 ✭✭PerrDub


    We would just hope that the Gardai will know the actual laws..



    Like in this example from the U.S:





    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_lane_marking


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,824 ✭✭✭Qualitymark


    buffalo wrote: »
    I find myself pondering this at the south end of St Stephen's Green East, where a single bus/cycle lane serves for both straight on and left-turning traffic, and the light is predominantly green for only left turning traffic.

    I don't like to wait at the outside of the lane (as I would if there were split left/straight lanes) because it impedes the ability of buses to turn wide (and they might hit me). I don't like to take the lane, because I'll be holding up the bus traffic. But I have found, when I wait at the inside, that the buses take this as a submissive position, and have stopped and boxed me in. So many messages warn of the dangers of going up the inside of a left-turning vehicle, and yet here's a junction where I feel compelled to put myself potentially in that position. What to do?

    I tend to get off my bicycle and lift it onto the path here, and wait out of the way of the buses (which, after all, are carrying 60 people, or capable of doing so); when the lights change, they change to a pedestrian crossing light, so I walk the bike across, remount when I'm past the lights on the other side, and cycle on.

    As for the blaring horns, etc, yes, I do encounter this, but usually if you make sure to turn around, make (friendly) eye contact with the driver behind you and indicate which way you intend to go, people are patient; there is, of course, the occasional screaming dolt, but this is so everywhere.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,208 ✭✭✭HivemindXX


    du Maurier wrote: »
    Just as an aside (a few pages back) to refer to seemingly hazardous/difficult junctions to negotiate, but this one on Macken Street usually has a number of car horns blaring and motorists frustrated with cyclists.

    There is a similar thing at the corner of Thomas Street and Bridgefoot Street. http://goo.gl/maps/mZUPh

    The left lane is a bus lane so it should only contain taxis, busses and left turning vehicles. Unfortunately there is a left filter arrow that is green a lot of the time that straight ahead traffic has a red.

    As you said you can't stay on the left and if you are in the centre you risk being in the middle of two lanes of traffic when things start moving. Fortunately there is an ASL on this junction so you are ahead of traffic by default and I usually have no trouble getting back to the left hand side.

    The problem, like basically every road problem, is assholes. The people who choose to shoot up the inside of the queue of straight ahead vehicles and then rapidly cut across in front of them in the junction.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 709 ✭✭✭QueensGael


    Pat Kenny & Paddy O'Gorman talking about the on-the-spot fines story now

    www.rte.ie/radio


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,276 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    "negligent and incompetent road design". Hyperbole much?

    Is there anything stopping people signalling and changing lanes?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,285 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Is there anything stopping people signalling and changing lanes?

    Rage against the machine.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84 ✭✭PerrDub




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,110 ✭✭✭Skrynesaver


    I reckon I saw ~€1K's worth of fines on the ride in this morning between Finglas and Blackrock, for any Guard looking for revenue raising bonuses (if such exist) I'd recommend Strand Rd. saw about €450 worth of fines there.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,291 ✭✭✭kirving


    Listening to Pat Kenny, the majority of texters seem to have an issue with cyclist in general. Damien of the Dublin Cycling Campaign is arguing his points well, but Finian McGrath cycling seems to be picking and choosing examples, which were probably complaints from his constituents.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    "negligent and incompetent road design". Hyperbole much?

    Is there anything stopping people signalling and changing lanes?

    Why should they have to?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,545 ✭✭✭droidus


    I reckon I saw ~€1K's worth of fines on the ride in this morning between Finglas and Blackrock, for any Guard looking for revenue raising bonuses (if such exist) I'd recommend Strand Rd. saw about €450 worth of fines there.

    I have a similar commute and on average Id see 100+ pedestrians jaywalking (€15 each) and at least a few dozen cars RLJ'ng, speeding and using mobiles (€80 each).

    Thars gold in dem thar hills.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 360 ✭✭radia


    buffalo wrote: »
    I find myself pondering this at the south end of St Stephen's Green East, where a single bus/cycle lane serves for both straight on and left-turning traffic, and the light is predominantly green for only left turning traffic.
    I'm pretty sure that that's one of the rare cases in Dublin where the contraflow is for buses only - it's not a shared bus and cycle lane.

    That said, I've been waiting at the lights there on a bike with a Garda car beside me and they didn't say anything. And it's one of the junctions where the road sensors are actually sensitive enough to detect a bike.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,276 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Why should they have to?

    In order to get in the right lane. Why should any road user have to change lane.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,627 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    droidus wrote: »
    I have a similar commute and on average Id see 100+ pedestrians jaywalking (€15 each)
    do you mean crossing against a red light at a pedestrian crossing? it's not an offence to 'jaywalk' if you're more than (i think) 15 yards from a pedestrian crossing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,167 ✭✭✭buffalo


    radia wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure that that's one of the rare cases in Dublin where the contraflow is for buses only - it's not a shared bus and cycle lane.

    That said, I've been waiting at the lights there on a bike with a Garda car beside me and they didn't say anything. And it's one of the junctions where the road sensors are actually sensitive enough to detect a bike.

    There's no such thing as a non-cycle bus lane since October 1st 2012.

    edit: And since then they've actually changed it from a sensor-controlled junction to one where the straight-filter light now always goes green on each cycle. kudos!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,308 ✭✭✭quozl


    It's a bus only contraflow rather than a bus lane - or are we definitely now allowed use it?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,810 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Unless it's got a solid white line separating it from the road you can.

    Solid line, cars not allowed in it, dashed line, they can

    As far as I'm aware, you cannot park in a cycle lane with a dashed line. You can drive in it, when the road is narrow, or preparing to turn left. But you can't actually park a vehicle there.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,167 ✭✭✭buffalo


    quozl wrote: »
    It's a bus only contraflow rather than a bus lane - or are we definitely now allowed use it?

    According to the explanatory note on SI 332/2012:
    including change in law to permit pedal cyclists to use contra-flow bus lanes and bus-only streets

    Whether that's definite would be up the courts I imagine, but it's good enough for me. :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 360 ✭✭radia


    buffalo wrote: »
    There's no such thing as a non-cycle bus lane since October 1st 2012.

    edit: And since then they've actually changed it from a sensor-controlled junction to one where the straight-filter light now always goes green on each cycle. kudos!

    Hadn't realised that! Good to know - thanks.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    In order to get in the right lane. Why should any road user have to change lane.

    I will try again - we seem to be a bit slow today. Why should a cyclist who wishes to go straight ahead be required to signal and change lanes across a stream of following motor traffic to do so?

    It is an inherently ridiculous concept.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,545 ✭✭✭droidus


    do you mean crossing against a red light at a pedestrian crossing? it's not an offence to 'jaywalk' if you're more than (i think) 15 yards from a pedestrian crossing.


    Yes, thats exactly what I mean. Its 15 metres.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,276 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    I will try again - we seem to be a bit slow today. Why should a cyclist who wishes to go straight ahead be required to signal and change lanes across a stream of following motor traffic to do so?

    It is an inherently ridiculous concept.

    Because it's no great inconvenience to them. Road users need to change lanes all the time. To paint this "negligent and incompetent" is hyperbolic.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,912 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    Because it's no great inconvenience to them. Road users need to change lanes all the time.

    But we are not talking about some idealised "road user". We are talking about people of all ages and abilities on bikes. Children going to school, elderly people, people with three speed step-through frames and shopping baskets.

    And you are saying its no great inconvenience to merge across streams of following traffic, including buses and HGVS, and have them passing you on either side, simply in order to go straight ahead.

    Disingenuous much?


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,276 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    What about all of these poor beleaguered cyclists who need to change lanes when they want to go right or left? It's not rocket science and I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill here.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 52,627 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    to take a more extreme example, not one being discussed above.
    if a cyclist going southbound on the N11 wants to take a right onto brewery road (the right hand turn just after john of gods), they have to leave the bus lane, and cross at least two lanes of traffic doing about 60kph, while going uphill, or else get off the bike and become a pedestrian, and cross at the pedestrian lights. the road infrastructure simply does not (and very possibly cannot) cater for cyclists in scenarios like this.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,284 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    What about all of these poor beleaguered cyclists who need to change lanes when they want to go right or left? It's not rocket science and I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill here.

    Disagree strongly. This is a design feature for motor vechicles so that left turning vechicles do not slow down the vechicles behind them. Left turn filters are a barrier for novice cyclists.
    Maybe fine for fast cyclists on road bikes - but roads should not be designed to facilitate motor vechicles first.


This discussion has been closed.
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